OP
TLH3rdDan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #21
http://www.nationalmartialarts.com/ is this the NMAA you are reffering to? ok so im assuming you know quite abit about metso paulo... what do those names mean?
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
I'm sorry but this is such a bunch of hooey.... made his own forms? Named them after himself? Renames kicks after himself or mystical names? People get bizarre titles? Isn't this the kind of stuff all of you are chomping at the bit to expose? Why the sudden politically correct attitude of the forum? Maybe we should just call these people martial arts reality impaired? Hey if I'm way out of line tell me, I just think catering to this ridiculousness is bizarre.
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
OP
TLH3rdDan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #23
i already tried that one damian and got jumped for personal attacks so im just trying to be a nice polite person and simply ask questions although you must admit it is quite entertaining...
its also been two days and i still havent heard back from him on my last couple of questions...
its also been two days and i still havent heard back from him on my last couple of questions...
OP
chufeng
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #24
I've posted less than usual because of the "dramatic" change in the board...I'm talking about the post survey change...the one where people get slapped down for questioning others...
I think some folks have a "tattle" button on their desk-top and as soon as they feel uncomfortable they run to the mods with a complaint...being true to the new policy enforcement, they immediately send PM to you and tell you to play nice...so bullshidoists everywhere are safe and "feel good" about the friendly community they've found here.
Whatever
I'll be expecting some PM today regarding this very post.
:asian:
chufeng
I think some folks have a "tattle" button on their desk-top and as soon as they feel uncomfortable they run to the mods with a complaint...being true to the new policy enforcement, they immediately send PM to you and tell you to play nice...so bullshidoists everywhere are safe and "feel good" about the friendly community they've found here.
Whatever
I'll be expecting some PM today regarding this very post.
:asian:
chufeng
Actually, I tend to agree with you.
The funny thing is though, having given a careful look at the last 50 reports, its been the same 3 people reporting the same issue, over and over and over again. I won't mention who the top nitpick tattler is, but its very interesting.
As to the change in tone as of late, we agree, its changed. Too many people with narrow perspectives screaming fraud and harrassment loudly and everywhere they go it seems. Too many people just looking for attention. As this board has grown, we've gotten our share of the nutcases. As most of the time the few major PITA have chosen to ignore us, rather than boot em, I've just been letting them go. I figure, they have little respect for me, less for my staff, obviously even less for themselves. So, go make the public aware of it. There are many folks who have gone down in my, and many others estimations due to how they have behaved themselves as of late.
Of course, a few of those that ***** the loudest about others, also seem to believe that its their way or its crap. You hear about 'if this was my board', but....its not. You hear 'if it was my school'..but, its not. Opinions are like buttholes...everyone has em.
Now, as to this particular thread... Who knows. Troll, deluded teen, newbie or honest but different. -I- can't make the determination based on a few posts, yet others jumped all over him with refs to cartoons and movies. Because what he asked was too 'foriegn' to their concepts. I say, empty your cup and take an open mind. Then, we can find the truths. This board used to have a much emptier cup...now it seems, too many people are 'full'.
and I start to wonder....
The funny thing is though, having given a careful look at the last 50 reports, its been the same 3 people reporting the same issue, over and over and over again. I won't mention who the top nitpick tattler is, but its very interesting.
As to the change in tone as of late, we agree, its changed. Too many people with narrow perspectives screaming fraud and harrassment loudly and everywhere they go it seems. Too many people just looking for attention. As this board has grown, we've gotten our share of the nutcases. As most of the time the few major PITA have chosen to ignore us, rather than boot em, I've just been letting them go. I figure, they have little respect for me, less for my staff, obviously even less for themselves. So, go make the public aware of it. There are many folks who have gone down in my, and many others estimations due to how they have behaved themselves as of late.
Of course, a few of those that ***** the loudest about others, also seem to believe that its their way or its crap. You hear about 'if this was my board', but....its not. You hear 'if it was my school'..but, its not. Opinions are like buttholes...everyone has em.
Now, as to this particular thread... Who knows. Troll, deluded teen, newbie or honest but different. -I- can't make the determination based on a few posts, yet others jumped all over him with refs to cartoons and movies. Because what he asked was too 'foriegn' to their concepts. I say, empty your cup and take an open mind. Then, we can find the truths. This board used to have a much emptier cup...now it seems, too many people are 'full'.
and I start to wonder....
OP
TLH3rdDan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #26
well kaith its called the domino effect... its begining to happen where i work and seems to be happening here... example: two or three people say hey so and so is harrassing me... you go and see the thread in question and yes that person is breaking rules and is harrassing so you warn them or boot them since there were so many complaints... and since im assuming you keep those complaints confidental between you and the other mods and possibly the complaintants dont even know there was more than one complaint... you get one of them who seems to think that they did it that you responded to them solely so that person decides to try the same thing again only this time its with someone who they disagree with or just dont like... and it keeps going and going... but then thats just my opinion...
Thats a good sumation. We don't make a big public execution thing when we boot someone. We often do get multiple reports, and usually send back a terse 'we will look into it' message to acknowledge we did get the report. At least 80% of our warnings are sent by email or PM, with often times a generic message placed in the thread.
We believe its more professional and friendly that way. After all, if you did something wrong, would you want your instructor to publically discipline you, or take you on the side and settle it quietly? I'd prefer the 2nd myself, and it is that standard that we use.
The trade off is that tattletale #1 doesn't see anything so he sends in 20+ more reports...many of them of the "WHEN ARE YOU SOBS GOING TO DO SOMETHING!!!!!" type. Yes, call us names and tell us our job...then..when ya get a 'vacation' whine to everyone everywhere how unfair we are to you. Have 5 of them then get on our case over how 'great' a guy you are, and etc etc etc. This has happened repeatedly when certain individuals have been disciplined for their breaking our rules. In one case, I got a nice phone call about 'all that so-n-so has done for you and MT". Yup....was appreciated...doesn't put them above the rules. (Note 'You' here is generic, and not addressed directly)
Hell..I got 4 warnings this week for my posts...3 from the 'reparations' thread, and 1 from the 'fma mcdojo' thread. Someone will say 'we didnt know that'...and, purhaps in the 1 case, it should have been made public. But, thats a call the one issuing the warnings made.
We are open to positive feedback on ways to improve this site...for everyone, not just any small group.
:asian:
We believe its more professional and friendly that way. After all, if you did something wrong, would you want your instructor to publically discipline you, or take you on the side and settle it quietly? I'd prefer the 2nd myself, and it is that standard that we use.
The trade off is that tattletale #1 doesn't see anything so he sends in 20+ more reports...many of them of the "WHEN ARE YOU SOBS GOING TO DO SOMETHING!!!!!" type. Yes, call us names and tell us our job...then..when ya get a 'vacation' whine to everyone everywhere how unfair we are to you. Have 5 of them then get on our case over how 'great' a guy you are, and etc etc etc. This has happened repeatedly when certain individuals have been disciplined for their breaking our rules. In one case, I got a nice phone call about 'all that so-n-so has done for you and MT". Yup....was appreciated...doesn't put them above the rules. (Note 'You' here is generic, and not addressed directly)
Hell..I got 4 warnings this week for my posts...3 from the 'reparations' thread, and 1 from the 'fma mcdojo' thread. Someone will say 'we didnt know that'...and, purhaps in the 1 case, it should have been made public. But, thats a call the one issuing the warnings made.
We are open to positive feedback on ways to improve this site...for everyone, not just any small group.
:asian:
OP
andurilking2
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #28
I'm sorry but this is such a bunch of hooey.... made his own forms? Named them after himself?
Why is it impossible for someone to create their own "forms"?
Someone ultimately created every form that has ever been used and named it. These are his own personal forms and he named them out of convinience (instead of reffering to "that one that starts with a low back kick then moves into that blockk seriece etc etc etc"). As for the kicks and renaming them, the artform is again as i said untraditional and instead of using terms specific to one artform or generic ones he again used his own for reference. I did not create this thread to defend the viability of my arts i created it to discuss a specific portion of the internal arts aspect and i would appreciate it if you have a problem to pm me or better look me up and ill show you how my artform faires against whatever you have in your arsenal.
Why is it impossible for someone to create their own "forms"?
Someone ultimately created every form that has ever been used and named it. These are his own personal forms and he named them out of convinience (instead of reffering to "that one that starts with a low back kick then moves into that blockk seriece etc etc etc"). As for the kicks and renaming them, the artform is again as i said untraditional and instead of using terms specific to one artform or generic ones he again used his own for reference. I did not create this thread to defend the viability of my arts i created it to discuss a specific portion of the internal arts aspect and i would appreciate it if you have a problem to pm me or better look me up and ill show you how my artform faires against whatever you have in your arsenal.
OP
MartialArtist
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #29
I don't think that was what Damian was talking about. More so on the ridiculous forms that are only made to make things look good or to be new or some crazy idea of the founder.
Most of the "new" forms are just random moves that take bits and pieces of forms and pastes them together and viola.
The "artsy" kicks serve no purpose whatsoever. They can't be used for combat, they don't help indirectly for combat, they don't do anything. Just something to make it look new and "mystical". The forms include moves such as charging up your ki and acting like you're throwing a fireball like in those video games.
Zepp
Master of Arts
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2003
- Messages
- 1,561
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- 22
I don't know about you guys, but I think this whole thread is much more entertaining than it would be if we let it devolve into a barbecue. :flame:
andurilking2,
Is there anything else you could share with us about your training? Such as, how did you meet your master, how long did you train with him for (maybe how much did he charge you?), what other martial arts have you trained in? It might do a little to establish credibility with us. (Right now, you don't seem to have too much.)
andurilking2,
Is there anything else you could share with us about your training? Such as, how did you meet your master, how long did you train with him for (maybe how much did he charge you?), what other martial arts have you trained in? It might do a little to establish credibility with us. (Right now, you don't seem to have too much.)
OP
zen_hydra
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #31
It sounds to me to vaguely resemble the antics of the Norse berserkers. Certainly, one would doubt any actual lineage to such, but perhaps they are trying to emulate the berserker rage. Here is a quote from an UCLA source.
"Berserkers, so prominent in Hrolf's Saga, are the remnants in Christian times of older stories. In pre-Christian Scandinavia, berserkers seem to have been members of cults connected with Odin in his capacity as god of warriors. Snorri Sturluson in Ynglinga Saga, recalling numerous elements of ancient lore, describes Odin's warriors in this way:
'His men went to battle without armor and acted like mad dogs or wolves. They bit into their shields and were as strong as bears or bulls. They killed men, but neither fire nor iron harmed them. This madness is called berserker-fury.'
The berserkers of the saga, who often appear as the core of the king's warband, are at times reminiscent of the retinue of warriors surrounding Odin and may ultimately derive from ancient bear cults. Debate has centered on the meaning of the word itself. Berserker could mean "bare shirt," that is, naked; berserkers, as a mark of ferocity and invincibility, are said to have fought without needing armor. The word, however, may also mean "bear-shirt," reflective of the shape and nature of the bear assumed by these warriors. More literally, it may refer to protective bearskins that such warriors may have worn into battle. When the "berserker rage" was upon him, a berserker was thought of as a sort of "were-bear" (or werewolf), part man, part beast, who was neither fully human nor fully animal. Although not specifically so called, Bodvar Bjarki is a berserker of sorts. He appears at Hrolf's final battle in the form of a huge bear, invulnerable to weapons. In both his invulnerability and his ability to change shape, Bodvar also displays preternatural abilities resembling those of Odinic champions."
http://www.viking.ucla.edu/hrolf/berserkers.html
"Berserkers, so prominent in Hrolf's Saga, are the remnants in Christian times of older stories. In pre-Christian Scandinavia, berserkers seem to have been members of cults connected with Odin in his capacity as god of warriors. Snorri Sturluson in Ynglinga Saga, recalling numerous elements of ancient lore, describes Odin's warriors in this way:
'His men went to battle without armor and acted like mad dogs or wolves. They bit into their shields and were as strong as bears or bulls. They killed men, but neither fire nor iron harmed them. This madness is called berserker-fury.'
The berserkers of the saga, who often appear as the core of the king's warband, are at times reminiscent of the retinue of warriors surrounding Odin and may ultimately derive from ancient bear cults. Debate has centered on the meaning of the word itself. Berserker could mean "bare shirt," that is, naked; berserkers, as a mark of ferocity and invincibility, are said to have fought without needing armor. The word, however, may also mean "bear-shirt," reflective of the shape and nature of the bear assumed by these warriors. More literally, it may refer to protective bearskins that such warriors may have worn into battle. When the "berserker rage" was upon him, a berserker was thought of as a sort of "were-bear" (or werewolf), part man, part beast, who was neither fully human nor fully animal. Although not specifically so called, Bodvar Bjarki is a berserker of sorts. He appears at Hrolf's final battle in the form of a huge bear, invulnerable to weapons. In both his invulnerability and his ability to change shape, Bodvar also displays preternatural abilities resembling those of Odinic champions."
http://www.viking.ucla.edu/hrolf/berserkers.html
OP
andurilking2
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #32
my master i met through Metso Paulo's parents, Gino's(Metso Paulo) grandfather owns a limo service and Dave was one of his clientell, the two became good friends and when he introduce dave to Gino and me we started talking about martial arts, we begged him to train us and that's about it, he did it for free and i trained with him for about 2 and a half years (metso Paulo slightly less) personally. Other martial arts i have "studied" are kenpo and hapkido (not officially i have only "self-learned" through internet sites, books and students. but i dont consider myself an actual student as i have not had any real training.)
Cruentus
Grandmaster
Thanks for posting a bit more info about your system. This allows me to actually give some insight on the matter.
The problem with a lot of rare martial arts is that they lack credability. In order for a martial art to have any credability, it has to have been combat tested at some point. The traditional martial arts have a level of credability because you can trace back most traditional arts to a time where it was actually used by real people in real battles. MMA have a level of credability because they use their mma to actually fight, even if it is tournament style fighting. Neo-combative martial arts have credability because modern day soldiers use these systems as part of their "survival kit" on the battle feild.
Now, contemporary people may take martial arts for reasons other then combat; health, stress relief, etc. There is nothing wrong with this. However, the for the system to be credable as a martial art, it has to have been somehow combat tested, even if the practitioners aren't studing the art to use it in combat today.
The problem with the art you describe is that there is no history or origin to lend a referance point to back up your claims. Without this history as a point of referance, there is no way for anyone, including yourself, to seperate your art that you believe is legit from another made-up, bullcrap art. The fact that your instructors didn't "concern themselves" with the history of your art, and that they made up forms, titles, and techniques is not something that is impressive; rather this is something that should be a major point of concern for you. Without any historicle point of referance, how do you know that you weren't being scammed into believing that an illegitamite art is legitamite? You don't, unfortunatily. Emotion is no indicator. How you "feel" or what seems real to you is not credable. People who join religious cults, for instance, "feel" like they are doing the right thing. Everything they see and experience will seem very real to them, yet it is nothing but a false reality. Please do not take offence to this comparison, for I am just trying to state the truth, and I am not trying to offend.
I think that you know that origin can = legitamicy already, and that is why you are trying to find the origin of the art you learned. This is commendable, and good luck with your search. However, be careful not to get caught up in "false" points of credability, or credability traps. Here are some examples of credability traps that people get caught in:
"I once saw master so-and-so perform this amazing feat, or beat up 10 people, or [fill in the blank with whatever], so that was when I knew I had to learn this art."
Your own experiences is not proof of anything. Even if you are being honest, your experiences are subject to error or deception. So to others, this doesn't lend credability.
"When I study this art, I feel the power of my technique"
How you feel is not proof of anything. Just like experience, your feelings are subject to error. When I was 4 yrs old, I used to pretend that I was the incredable hulk, and believe me, I felt like I could lift anything. Just because I felt this way at age 4, this doesn't mean that my feelings were a reality.
"The Norse berserkers did this "thing". My teacher was American/european. The descriptions of the norse beserker "thing" is the same description I was given for the "thing" I do in my art. Therefore, my art MUST trace back to the norse berserkers."
One does not = the other. You can't just assume that an art traces to an origin because the descriptions are similar. This is not enough evidence to prove that your art traces back to that culture. There has to be some sort of imperical method of tracing your art to a specific origin, such as : "so and so learned from so and so who was the teacher of so and so and blahblah bla, who was a norse warrior." Something like that, but you get the idea, I'm sure. There has to be a more imperical method of tracing an origin other then just connecting coincidences.
"The Shaolin monks have been noted for doing this, so why is it so hard to believe that my art does this similar thing."
Just because another credible source does something that you say is similar to what you do, this doesn't make what you do credible. First of all it's only hersay. Secondly, if there is no real connection between your art and that other source, then one cannot validate the other.
"I learned from master blah who trained with the mysterious master so-and-so. It was rumored that master so-and-so learned from an ancient tribe of people hidden in siberia, and then meditated in a cave for 10 years. Upon leaving the cave he decided to teach the world of his discoveries. This is what we believe, but master so-and-so is so mysterious, that none of us know his true origin."
The man of mystery claim doesn't lend credability either. If the buck stops at one person with a mystery background with no real evidence to back up this mystery background, then there is no real evidence that this art is credable, either.
These are just some credability traps to look for. Don't allow yourself to get caught in these. Also, don't get too emotionally involved. If you find the origin of your art, then great! If you find that you have been lied too or decieved, then this is too bad, but it is better to admit it and move on to something credible, then to try to defend something that you know isn't real.
Good luck with your search on trying to find some history behind your art. I'm sorry that I couldn't be more of a help then this. If you uncover anything in your search, please let us all know. I hope that you are able to find legitamicy in your art. If you aren't, then I just hope that you don't remain attached to something that has no legitamicy.
Peace,
PAUL
:asian:
The problem with a lot of rare martial arts is that they lack credability. In order for a martial art to have any credability, it has to have been combat tested at some point. The traditional martial arts have a level of credability because you can trace back most traditional arts to a time where it was actually used by real people in real battles. MMA have a level of credability because they use their mma to actually fight, even if it is tournament style fighting. Neo-combative martial arts have credability because modern day soldiers use these systems as part of their "survival kit" on the battle feild.
Now, contemporary people may take martial arts for reasons other then combat; health, stress relief, etc. There is nothing wrong with this. However, the for the system to be credable as a martial art, it has to have been somehow combat tested, even if the practitioners aren't studing the art to use it in combat today.
The problem with the art you describe is that there is no history or origin to lend a referance point to back up your claims. Without this history as a point of referance, there is no way for anyone, including yourself, to seperate your art that you believe is legit from another made-up, bullcrap art. The fact that your instructors didn't "concern themselves" with the history of your art, and that they made up forms, titles, and techniques is not something that is impressive; rather this is something that should be a major point of concern for you. Without any historicle point of referance, how do you know that you weren't being scammed into believing that an illegitamite art is legitamite? You don't, unfortunatily. Emotion is no indicator. How you "feel" or what seems real to you is not credable. People who join religious cults, for instance, "feel" like they are doing the right thing. Everything they see and experience will seem very real to them, yet it is nothing but a false reality. Please do not take offence to this comparison, for I am just trying to state the truth, and I am not trying to offend.
I think that you know that origin can = legitamicy already, and that is why you are trying to find the origin of the art you learned. This is commendable, and good luck with your search. However, be careful not to get caught up in "false" points of credability, or credability traps. Here are some examples of credability traps that people get caught in:
"I once saw master so-and-so perform this amazing feat, or beat up 10 people, or [fill in the blank with whatever], so that was when I knew I had to learn this art."
Your own experiences is not proof of anything. Even if you are being honest, your experiences are subject to error or deception. So to others, this doesn't lend credability.
"When I study this art, I feel the power of my technique"
How you feel is not proof of anything. Just like experience, your feelings are subject to error. When I was 4 yrs old, I used to pretend that I was the incredable hulk, and believe me, I felt like I could lift anything. Just because I felt this way at age 4, this doesn't mean that my feelings were a reality.
"The Norse berserkers did this "thing". My teacher was American/european. The descriptions of the norse beserker "thing" is the same description I was given for the "thing" I do in my art. Therefore, my art MUST trace back to the norse berserkers."
One does not = the other. You can't just assume that an art traces to an origin because the descriptions are similar. This is not enough evidence to prove that your art traces back to that culture. There has to be some sort of imperical method of tracing your art to a specific origin, such as : "so and so learned from so and so who was the teacher of so and so and blahblah bla, who was a norse warrior." Something like that, but you get the idea, I'm sure. There has to be a more imperical method of tracing an origin other then just connecting coincidences.
"The Shaolin monks have been noted for doing this, so why is it so hard to believe that my art does this similar thing."
Just because another credible source does something that you say is similar to what you do, this doesn't make what you do credible. First of all it's only hersay. Secondly, if there is no real connection between your art and that other source, then one cannot validate the other.
"I learned from master blah who trained with the mysterious master so-and-so. It was rumored that master so-and-so learned from an ancient tribe of people hidden in siberia, and then meditated in a cave for 10 years. Upon leaving the cave he decided to teach the world of his discoveries. This is what we believe, but master so-and-so is so mysterious, that none of us know his true origin."
The man of mystery claim doesn't lend credability either. If the buck stops at one person with a mystery background with no real evidence to back up this mystery background, then there is no real evidence that this art is credable, either.
These are just some credability traps to look for. Don't allow yourself to get caught in these. Also, don't get too emotionally involved. If you find the origin of your art, then great! If you find that you have been lied too or decieved, then this is too bad, but it is better to admit it and move on to something credible, then to try to defend something that you know isn't real.
Good luck with your search on trying to find some history behind your art. I'm sorry that I couldn't be more of a help then this. If you uncover anything in your search, please let us all know. I hope that you are able to find legitamicy in your art. If you aren't, then I just hope that you don't remain attached to something that has no legitamicy.
Peace,
PAUL
:asian:
OP
andurilking2
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #34
i can trace my martial art form back about 20 generations and i know that it continued long before that unfortuanately (since all the practitioners 20 generations ago are dead) i cant prove that it has been around for 1000's of years, i can prove that it has been around for about 300 years and it has been proven and tested in tournament and real life situations. And again the titles are not made up they are just universal generic titles for the sake of having a ranking system as the form does not use "belts" as in tae kwon do.
Cruentus
Grandmaster
How can you trace it back so far when you have been searching for the name of your system?
Zepp
Master of Arts
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- Jan 16, 2003
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If you can prove that your art is at least 300 years old, could you please prove it to us? What are the records you're using for a source of information?
Damian Mavis
Master Black Belt
"How can you trace it back so far when you have been searching for the name of your system?"
Heh
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Heh
Damian Mavis
Honour TKD
Zepp
Master of Arts
- Joined
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Look Damien, as much as this mystery art seems to sound like bullshido, its apparent that andurilking genuinely believes in it. Since he doesn't sound like he's trolling, we should get all the information about it he's willing to give. You have to admit that if you weren't at least a little curious to find out more, you would have stopped reading this thread.
To all: If you've bothered to follow this thread, then let's go all the way and find out everything we can. So what if it turns out to be total BS? If you have something better to be doing, what are you doing here on the internet writing and reading about fighting arts in the first place?
andurilking, please, if you could, let us know where your information about your art comes from. Written sources, online sources, and maybe even people we could contact would be helpful.
To all: If you've bothered to follow this thread, then let's go all the way and find out everything we can. So what if it turns out to be total BS? If you have something better to be doing, what are you doing here on the internet writing and reading about fighting arts in the first place?
andurilking, please, if you could, let us know where your information about your art comes from. Written sources, online sources, and maybe even people we could contact would be helpful.
OP
andurilking2
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #39
no i have zeroxed copies of handwritten records i recieved from my master about former master and students, i can trace the same martial arts back to my master's master's master's etc etc master. And a name has never been mentioned some of the records are actual logs on students proggress some are just names and dates.
Metso Paulo recently took on a student and added another generation (as i call them) to the record i have still to get a copy of that.
Metso Paulo recently took on a student and added another generation (as i call them) to the record i have still to get a copy of that.
Zepp
Master of Arts
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2003
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- 1,561
- Reaction score
- 22
Do you have anything we could see for ourselves?
