Chambering the fist like in the forms is unrealistic

[Danny T]

In fighting and arms flailing around it is easy to stop a moment in time to freeze a photo moment and say "see where his hands are" and use such for your desired discussion.

Do you practice pulling your hand back beyond your head in forms or katas? Why not? Yet when viewing full force movements within a fight you'll see it occur often as a natural human movement for balance and/or torque. However, such is not the same as the practiced chambering within forms which is a much more compact and deliberate movement.

Why Chamber...
1. It creates the body as a whole to be more compact and one must use the hips more for power generation than just using the upper body limbs. So for a beginner it is like a train wheel version of learning to ride a bicycle. When the practitioner has ingrained using the hips the arms can now be utilized elsewhere just as a child is able to remove the training wheels from the bicycle as they learn to control their balance on the bicycle.

2. The practitioner later learns or should learn one is either placing something at the hip/waist area or is removing something from there.

3. Many of the moves, positions, postures, are based on a grappling...'grabbing, seizing, controlling of a body limb, head, or neck' and not blocking or setting up for a strike.

4. Chambering, as in many of the other actions, can be used in a multitude of ways.

 

[Martial D]

It has long been my opinion that - in many systems, but perhaps not all - the extreme chamber is an approach to teaching specific principles and mechanics. It may or may not be useful in any given application, but appears to work for teaching how to punch. There are other approaches (I can't recall ever seeing the extreme chamber taught in a boxing video).

I can come up with a few circumstances where bringing that hand back may be useful. I can come up with many circumstances where the mechanics and principles (rotation, having some "reserve" power at the ready, etc.) are useful. My sparring these days looks like a blend between boxing and TJMA. It almost all derives from fairly typical traditional Japanese drills, and the principles I was taught in them.

No..it does not teach you how to punch. If your habit is to keep your arm out of your opponents way you have probably never stood in front of anyone that hits back.

It's hilarious watching these sorts in challenge matches, holding their traditional stance just long enough to get hit and get their hands up(enter sloppy kickboxing)

The motion of pulling back to chamber probably simulated an arm drag or similar grappling maneuver, which was just forgotten by generations of kata doers that no longer applied it to anything. At least it makes some sense in that context.

 

[Martial D]

not so sure, its a particularly good mechanic for throwing very hard punches, its extensively a bench press movement with some upper body rotation thrown in for extra umph, your realy strong from that position, try bench pressing from else where to see what i mean.

. the down side as you point out is your not defending your head, but then very few people defend their head anyway, even boxers who are trained to have high cover commonly don't, except when they are actually under attack,as its a poor position to throw punches from.

i fight from a sort of halfway house, with my elbows tucked in, but not as far back as is common with the chambered punch, and my hand at more or less shoulder height, that way i can quickly transition to either taking my elbow back for a chamber punch or moving my hands up to cover.

im sure a good boxer would exploit that, but a good boxer will knock me over no matter what i do. against the run of the mill, it works quite well

You'll get more power just throwing from the shoulder. You don't need to have your hand at your hips to engage your hips, and the only time distance adds power is if it's a swing, like a haymaker or an overhand. The rest of the time it just teaches you to arm punch.

 

[jobo]

You'll get more power just throwing from the shoulder. You don't need to have your hand at your hips to engage your hips, and the only time distance adds power is if it's a swing, like a haymaker or an overhand. The rest of the time it just teaches you to arm punch.

well no, as can be easily shown by experiment, get a heavy dumbell , lie on a bench and see which of a cambered movement or a shoulder throw generates the most power, i said nothing about having your hand at you hip. .that doesn't seem good mechanics at all

distance should add speed, which then adds energy, that is it takes distance to accelerate your arm to max velocity, admitedly you can have to much distance, but generally the more the better, as people generally fail to hit high velocity over short distances

 

[Martial D]

well no, as can be easily shown by experiment, get a heavy dumbell , lie on a bench and see which of a cambered movement or a shoulder throw generates the most power, i said nothing about having your hand at you hip. .that doesn't seem good mechanics at all

distance should add speed, which then adds energy, that is it takes distance to accelerate your arm to max velocity, admitedly you can have to much distance, but generally the more the better, as people generally fail to hit high velocity over short distances

Ya, my whole issue here is with the TMA style hip or below the shoulder fist chamber. 'chambering' to the guard position is a whole different thing.

As for power, it shouldn't come from the arm, but the driving foot, hip rotation, and elbow/shoulder drive. You can generate tremendous punching power with very short travel distance. Extra distance is just extra time to be countered.

 

[jobo]

Ya, my whole issue here is with the TMA style hip or below the shoulder fist chamber. 'chambering' to the guard position is a whole different thing.

As for power, it shouldn't come from the arm, but the driving foot, hip rotation, and elbow/shoulder drive. You can generate tremendous punching power with very short travel distance. Extra distance is just extra time to be countered.

no it should come from the arm, the other movements just increase it or to turn it round if your not using the muscles in your arm and shoulder efficiently all the foot and hip travel in the world are not going to make it a good punch

 

[Martial D]

no it should come from the arm, the other movements just increase it or to turn it round if your not using the muscles in your arm and shoulder efficiently all the foot and hip travel in the world are not going to make it a good punch

Gonna have to side with every boxer to ever live on this one. Roberto Duran once famously quoted that any punch longer than 6 inches is wasted motion, and I'd totally agree.

 

[jobo]

Gonna have to side with every boxer to ever live on this one. Roberto Duran once famously quoted that any punch longer than 6 inches is wasted motion, and I'd totally agree.

i think you may be quote mining there, unless of course your saying that mr duran never bothered himself throwing any punch over that distance, which i know to be as a fact is not true, having watch him fight a few times

 

[Martial D]

i think you may be quote mining there, unless of course your saying that mr duran never bothered himself throwing any punch over that distance, which i know to be as a fact is not true, having watch him fight a few times

Of course he did. Fights seldom look crisp and clean, they are chaotic. He was speaking of an ideal that is already really apperant to people that box.

I honestly find it weird that you think the primary source of punching power is the arm, rather than the whole body. Is that a krav maga thing?

 

[jobo]

Of course he did. Fights seldom look crisp and clean, they are chaotic. He was speaking of an ideal that is already really apperant to people that box.

I honestly find it weird that you think the primary source of punching power is the arm, rather than the whole body. Is that a krav maga thing?

well thats makes his quote that he wouldn't waste effort punching a greater distance, obvious nonsense

try it for yourself, all these things are easily tested, first punch without using your body, then punch moving your body and not your arm, you'll notice that one is considerably stronger than the other. that a clear indication of where the majority of the power comes from. let me know how it turns out

 

[Martial D]

well thats makes his quote that he wouldn't waste effort punching a greater distance, obvious nonsense

try it for yourself, all these things are easily tested, first punch without using your body, then punch moving your body and not your arm, you'll notice that one is considerably stronger than the other. that a clear indication of where the majority of the power comes from. let me know how it turns out

Your first sentence is just silly, so I'll ignore that.

The second bit actually isn't true either. You can generate WAY more force keeping your hands stationary, just dipping and twisting your body, than you can moving your fist forward with your arm. Are you just trolling or do you believe that? I find it a bit surprising that you don't understand boxing power generation. I thought all you Brits boxed?

 

[jobo]

Your first sentence is just silly, so I'll ignore that.

The second bit actually isn't true either. You can generate WAY more force keeping your hands stationary, just dipping and twisting your body, than you can moving your fist forward with your arm. Are you just trolling or do you believe that? I find it a bit surprising that you don't understand boxing power generation. I thought all you Brits boxed?

no your quote mine was silly,

and your wrong on the second point as well, now go away and test it. or show a vid of a boxer knocking someone out with no arm movement at all. and il post one of a knock out with no body movement. that would seem to settle the issue

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But it doesn't give you more reach.

If you

- don't twist your body, it wont.
- twist your body, it will.

Of course you don't need to pull your non-punching hand back to your waist to get the maximum extension.

Back to the waist is just to remind "body twisting".

Punch with body twist - punching arm and body form a 180 degree straight line.

Punch without body twist - punching arm and body form a 90 degree angle.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Another reason to pull your non-punching hand back to your waist is to train "how to grab and pull your opponent's blocking arm after your punch".

Of course one other reason is to balance your body movement. When you right roundhouse kick on your heavy bag, do you swing your left back hand from your left shoulder to your right shoulder?

It's the same principle. Your right

- arm move forward, your left arm move backward.
- leg move counter clock-wise, your left hand move clockwise.

 

[Buka]

I love arm punchers. They were my favorite people to fight.

It's like getting hit with those little marshmallows they put in cocoa.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you practice pulling your hand back beyond your head in forms or katas?

In training, you try to use your arms rotation can enhance your body rotation.

At 0.13.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

The hand that you pull back to your waist, do you keep your "large fist eye" facing outside, or do you keep your "larger fist eye" facing upward?

Do you think this may make some difference?​

Isshinryu fist formation doesn't look like that, and we don't punch like that.

We use a vertical fist, thumb on top, fist angled slightly down so that the first two knuckles are the impact zone. We do not throw the corkscrew punch as a matter of typical practice.

 

[dvcochran]

The short answer is learning the elemental components of punching. "Cocking" the arm is a learned motion for most people. Usually, it greatly increases the power of a punch. Style can be a factor but regardless of style most people will learn the other components of making power, many of which @gpseymour mentioned, and not have to rely on chambering the arm. Like forms themselves, chambering is a tool used to teach and a tool used to apply.

 

[Martial D]

no your quote mine was silly,

and your wrong on the second point as well, now go away and test it. or show a vid of a boxer knocking someone out with no arm movement at all. and il post one of a knock out with no body movement. that would seem to settle the issue

LOL

You get silly sometimes.

 

[Martial D]

I love arm punchers. They were my favorite people to fight.

It's like getting hit with those little marshmallows they put in cocoa.

Seriously.

I didn't think even jobo would be arguing the effacy of arm punching. What a crazy day.