chakra/chi/ki in live combat

[K-man]

Hmm... i guess you can do a little qi gong to help you calm down and breathing out when you punch are the main uses i guess.

I guess you have never come across this type of thing. It is nothing to do with calming and very little to do with striking. It is what makes locks, holds and takedowns effortless. Certainly it makes the strikes more effective if that is where you want to go.
:asian:

 

[jezr74]

Hey guys, I'm new to the site but let's just dive right in; do any of you actually use chakra or chi in live combat or know anyone who does? This is a serious question. I know people who train their chi flow but don't use it in a fight to enhance there abilities. I do and I feel it helps but I wanted an outside opinion. If you disagree with me or think its all bs feel free to tell me. I'm just.... Curious I suppose. Any information would help. Thank you in advance.

Thought I'd repost this for you, you may find if interesting if you are looking into this side of things.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2686635/

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[oftheherd1]

If you have not noticed, there is a sub-forum on just that here at MT. You might want to look there to see if there is anything of interest to you.

 

[blindsage]

Qi is a reference term, it is not magic. The methods in the videos above are very refined uses of structure and intention. It's not using some mystic force.

 

[jezr74]

Qi is a reference term, it is not magic. The methods in the videos above are very refined uses of structure and intention. It's not using some mystic force.

Can you elaborate? (not the magic part) About what you mean by structure and intention?

 

[mook jong man]

Can you elaborate? (not the magic part) About what you mean by structure and intention?

I will elaborate since they are Wing Chun videos of my lineage.

Structure in Wing Chun means basically the stance , straightening the spine (posture) and the angles of the arms.

Nim Lik ( force of idea / intent) is achieved by practice of the Siu Nim Tau form , the main goal of the form is to be able to cultivate this highly focused state of the mind.

The mind force is projected to a focal point on the centerline where imaginary lines drawn from the feet , meet to form the apex of a triangle approximately where the fist of an out stretched arm would be , this is when practicing the form solo.

But when engaged with an opponent the focal point of intention now becomes the opponents spine.

The force is also used to stabilize and power all the Wing Chun offensive and defensive techniques so that muscular tension does not have to be used?

 

[K-man]

Qi is a reference term, it is not magic. The methods in the videos above are very refined uses of structure and intention. It's not using some mystic force.

Ki, Qi or Chi is what it means to you and how you use it. I think it is unhelpful to assert that it is what you comprehend it to be as an absolute. To me it is nothing to do with reference terms and it is certainly not magic. In the early stages it does require structure and technique but as you progress structure and technique become almost irrelevant. Certainly intent is part of it but again it depends on how you understand 'intent'. Now if it is not a 'mystic force' I don't believe you have actually encountered a practitioner utilising Ki in the way I have experienced it.

mys·ti·cal adjective \ˈmis-ti-kəl\
: having a spiritual meaning that is difficult to see or understand


: of or relating to mystics or mysticism : resulting from prayer or deep thought

I have no idea of how to define Ki. Is it spiritual? Possibly, and it is certainly difficult to understand. Prayer or deep thought? Well nothing to do with prayer but meditation is part of some people's practice. What I have experienced and what I practise and teach can't be defined in simple terms. 'Mystic' is pretty close to the mark and because it is powerful 'mystic force' could well be an appropriate definition. I prefer to describe it as 'inexplicable' rather than 'mystic' but whatever term you choose to describe it, using Ki is using the mind and it definitely has little to do with biomechanics and absolutely nothing to do with physical force.
:asian:

 

[blindsage]

That all sounds good, but my experience is completely different. I know some extremely high level practitioners of Taiji and Aikido (through Koichi Tohei's lineage) that can do everything in the videos above and they vehemently state it is biomechanics, psychology and intention. Included in that are very high level qigong masters. There are things that they do that feel almost magical and I can't explain while their doing it, but they can and do. I am able to do some of those things like what's in the video, and yes it is biomechanics.

 

[K-man]

That all sounds good, but my experience is completely different. I know some extremely high level practitioners of Taiji and Aikido (through Koichi Tohei's lineage) that can do everything in the videos above and they vehemently state it is biomechanics, psychology and intention. Included in that are very high level qigong masters. There are things that they do that feel almost magical and I can't explain while their doing it, but they can and do. I am able to do some of those things like what's in the video, and yes it is biomechanics.

Which is exactly what I said. 'Ki' means different things to different people. If what you have witnessed can be explained as biomechanics then it is 100% sure it is biomechanics and not Ki. I also have trained with high level practitioners and as you say, they have a great understanding of biomechanics, but I have only come across two who taught the application of Ki. Only one of those is still teaching it. There is nothing magical about what they can do. It is simply martial art at the highest level.

As to videos. I haven't seen a video where I could say for sure it was Ki and not a gimme. Even the guys receiving for Ueshiba and Tohei are often just going with it. And the first video posted was just biomechanics but it was framed in the context of Ki. The second one of the guys pushing, I have no idea as I haven't felt it and I haven't tried it so it's impossible to know for sure what is happening.

You mentioned 'psychology' and 'intention'. Psychology plays an important part but not in the conventional sense. It is all about the mind and intent.
:asian:

 

[jezr74]

That all sounds good, but my experience is completely different. I know some extremely high level practitioners of Taiji and Aikido (through Koichi Tohei's lineage) that can do everything in the videos above and they vehemently state it is biomechanics, psychology and intention. Included in that are very high level qigong masters. There are things that they do that feel almost magical and I can't explain while their doing it, but they can and do. I am able to do some of those things like what's in the video, and yes it is biomechanics.

I'd like to attend a double blind test of this kind of thing myself, regardless weather it's interpreted as Ki or bio-mechanics. The psychology part you touch on to me is also very much of interest, how much is self deception involved, and a double blind should sort that out.

The clips mook jong man linked were interesting, I'd love to participate in something like that to experience first hand. I can only compare with some of the training I do now in Hapkido and really teaching my mind that force and strength is not everything.

So for the OP, as long as structure and intent is maintained during sparring or a RL encounter, then a version\interpretation of ki and bio-mechanics is used in "combat". - looking to the more experienced participants of this thread to agree\disagree.

On a side note, so if you were to describe low level ki\mechanics, Wing Chung, keeping structure and center line is comparable to Aikido circular motion and reservation of energy.. really not sure how to phrase what I mean here. (This is two examples of what the OP was asking?)

 

[mook jong man]

I'd like to attend a double blind test of this kind of thing myself, regardless weather it's interpreted as Ki or bio-mechanics. The psychology part you touch on to me is also very much of interest, how much is self deception involved, and a double blind should sort that out.

The clips mook jong man linked were interesting, I'd love to participate in something like that to experience first hand. I can only compare with some of the training I do now in Hapkido and really teaching my mind that force and strength is not everything.

So for the OP, as long as structure and intent is maintained during sparring or a RL encounter, then a version\interpretation of ki and bio-mechanics is used in "combat". - looking to the more experienced participants of this thread to agree\disagree.

On a side note, so if you were to describe low level ki\mechanics, Wing Chung, keeping structure and center line is comparable to Aikido circular motion and reservation of energy.. really not sure how to phrase what I mean here. (This is two examples of what the OP was asking?)

I can only speak for Wing Chun , but apart from the main triangular structure which acts like a wedge to open up the defences of the opponent , there are extensive use of circles and arcs.

Its just that the circles are very refined and small , most of then involve expanding the joint and joint rotation.

A larger example of a circle would be the pivoting of the whole body as one unit using the spine as the axis of rotation.

In fact it's not uncommon to have multiple circular forces acting at the one time , as in the third form Biu Jee where you have two layers of independent pivoting (upper and lower body ) which uses a spiral type of energy like a tornado.

You also have the elbows which are striking at the end of each rotation which are traveling in arcs.

Why the use of circular structures ? Because in nature the circle or sphere is very powerful it is resistant to force from every direction , it can also be accelerated to very high speeds.

That is why the tyres on your car are round and not triangular or square.

 

[blindsage]

I'd like to attend a double blind test of this kind of thing myself, regardless weather it's interpreted as Ki or bio-mechanics. The psychology part you touch on to me is also very much of interest, how much is self deception involved, and a double blind should sort that out.

I've seen plenty of evidence of non-compliance to believe it personally, but I do think it's something that you have to experience for yourself. The psychology part is more one of the practitioner understanding (through practice and experience) the reactions and instincts of the opponent in a very refined way. There are those who overreact because the 'believe' but there are those who don't believe and are still affected, some of whom still don't believe after no matter how many times it works on them.

The clips mook jong man linked were interesting, I'd love to participate in something like that to experience first hand. I can only compare with some of the training I do now in Hapkido and really teaching my mind that force and strength is not everything.

It's cool to experience and hard to figure out at first, but once you do, it's seem like 'oh, no duh'.

So for the OP, as long as structure and intent is maintained during sparring or a RL encounter, then a version\interpretation of ki and bio-mechanics is used in "combat". - looking to the more experienced participants of this thread to agree\disagree.

In my experience, yes.

On a side note, so if you were to describe low level ki\mechanics, Wing Chung, keeping structure and center line is comparable to Aikido circular motion and reservation of energy.. really not sure how to phrase what I mean here. (This is two examples of what the OP was asking?)

Structure and control of center are in Aikido as well, and circular motion and efficiency and relaxation of effort exist in any system that accomplishes this kind of method, including Wing Chun.