chain-punching damagewise.

[JowGaWolf]

Ok. But chun is striking and akido is grappling. So they should be exibiting contrary mechanics. More importantly chun is striking from the pocket which is where that barrage of punches makes its home. And chun don't even effectively kick (as in KTFO kick. ) which is the major advantage of an upright stance.

If you are going to compromise you need to know what the compromise actually is.

Many Wing Chun practitioners make the mistake of not relaxing, making everything rigid. Those who are able to be relax will kick like mules.

 

[drop bear]

Many Wing Chun practitioners make the mistake of not relaxing, making everything rigid. Those who are able to be relax will kick like mules.

Generally not fight ending so I can just leave my hands down kicks though. You are not going to change your whole body shape so you can do an oblique kick to the knee. The point of that kick is so you can do it from an akward body shape.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Good luck with that. I spar guys who will punch my head off my shoulders if I tried that.

Next time you spar with them, knock them off balance, and when they off balance hit them until they regain balance. If you do sweeps then do one to keep them off balance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Generally not fight ending so I can just leavy my hands down kicks though. You are not going to change your whole body shape so you can do an oblique kick to the knee. The point of that kick is so you can do it from an akward body shape.

I'll make a video of me doing a kung fu shin kick so you can see a practical application of it. I'll use it during free sparring and then I'll use it full force on a heavy bag. I think you would like it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. But chun is striking and akido is grappling. So they should be exibiting contrary mechanics. More importantly chun is striking from the pocket which is where that barrage of punches makes its home. And chun don't even effectively kick (as in KTFO kick. ) which is the major advantage of an upright stance.

If you are going to compromise you need to know what the compromise actually is.

I'm not an expert on WC, so I can't speak to all the reasons they use that posture. What I do understand is that they watch for and take advantage of some of the same front-weight openings grapplers like Aikidoka do, so it makes sense they'd share some stance characteristics with them. The rest of the reasons for their trade-off are beyond my ken.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Aikido doesn't work, no point in using it as a data point

VT doesn't fight "in the pocket"

VT does have effective kicks

Doesn't work for what, precisely?

 

[drop bear]

I'll make a video of me doing a kung fu shin kick so you can see a practical application of it. I'll use it during free sparring and then I'll use it full force on a heavy bag. I think you would like it.

I have some southpaw fighters in my gym. You want shin pain, spar those guys.

(Ok. just to explain here. becaue we are all goofy footed up either you kick their kick. Or you allways meet a cross check. both of which can break your leg. So it is just a matter of time before you both leg clash in some sort of horrible way.)

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have some southpaw fighters in my gym. You want shin pain, spar those guys.

(Ok. just to explain here. becaue we are all goofy footed up either you kick their kick. Or you allways meet a cross check. both of which can break your leg. So it is just a matter of time before you both leg clash in some sort of horrible way.)

I think there is some confusion. There is little risk to me and no risk of me clashing shins.

 

[Juany118]

Aikido doesn't work, no point in using it as a data point

VT doesn't fight "in the pocket"

VT does have effective kicks

First point only shows utter ignorance. There is actually a divide in Aikido. Side 1. they believe it is primarily for spiritual cultivation. Side 2 (among them Tenshin Aikido schools) believes Aikido should should be a practical TMA and so holds a bit closer to the Aiki-Jujutsu roots. BUT since you believe "your" VT is the only WC that works... I am not surprised the myopia is extended to other MAs

 

[Juany118]

I'm not an expert on WC, so I can't speak to all the reasons they use that posture. What I do understand is that they watch for and take advantage of some of the same front-weight openings grapplers like Aikidoka do, so it makes sense they'd share some stance characteristics with them. The rest of the reasons for their trade-off are beyond my ken.

Wing Chun uses an upright posture because, as I said in the other thread, it is about keeping your weight behind the punch. In order to do a WC straight punch, with minimal body English, "from the heart" with power starting from the ground, you need a "straight" structure. This also applies to defense.

Picture the hips as a "choke point". If you are bent at the waist and turning the hips to execute a punch, then the punch really starts at the waist/hips. In terms of defense, if an incoming attack is blocked and/or deflected and you are leaning forward from the waist/hips, the energy gets tied up at that same choke point and so throws you off balance and you lose your center. However, if you have what amounts to a straight line to the ground, the entire body strikes with a WC "straight punch", like the video I posted in the other thread. In defense the incoming energy goes to the ground so you have a better chance of maintaining balance.

Also, if you know what you are doing, you do NOT stay in the pocket. In my school we have 3 main axioms for WC.

1. Simultaneous attack and defense.
2. Never meet force with force (there are no blocks, they are deflections accompanied by relief and/or t-steps to further dissipate energy)
3. Attack from the BLIND side.

3 In terms of # 3, If you see two people who actually know WC it is dizzying because each is constantly trying to attack from a flank and so they will both essentially be walking in circles as they fight (though if you actually watch the foot work, its all angles.)

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Very similar to Pin Sun Wing Chun.

 

[LFJ]

and when they off balance hit them until they regain balance.

What?

 

[drop bear]

Doesn't work for what, precisely?

I think he might be having a crack at me there with my comments in the Akido for self defence thread.

 

[wingchun100]

Untill you get punched in that nicely poking out chin which is keeping your back straight.

Poking out chin? If your chin is poking out, then your structure is compromised...no matter how straight your back is. Leading with the chin is never a good idea.

 

[wingchun100]

Ok. But chun is striking and akido is grappling. So they should be exibiting contrary mechanics. More importantly chun is striking from the pocket which is where that barrage of punches makes its home. And chun don't even effectively kick (as in KTFO kick. ) which is the major advantage of an upright stance.

If you are going to compromise you need to know what the compromise actually is.

I Am not sure what you mean by punching "from the pocket."

Also, what do you mean by WC does not effectively kick? If I kick someone in the shin or groin and it causes enough pain where I go on to win the fight, that is pretty effective to me. Might not be a boot to the head like in Tae Kwon Leap, but you don't need to kick high to be effective.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wing Chun uses an upright posture because, as I said in the other thread, it is about keeping your weight behind the punch. In order to do a WC straight punch, with minimal body English, "from the heart" with power starting from the ground, you need a "straight" structure. This also applies to defense.

Picture the hips as a "choke point". If you are bent at the waist and turning the hips to execute a punch, then the punch really starts at the waist/hips. In terms of defense, if an incoming attack is blocked and/or deflected and you are leaning forward from the waist/hips, the energy gets tied up at that same choke point and so throws you off balance and you lose your center. However, if you have what amounts to a straight line to the ground, the entire body strikes with a WC "straight punch", like the video I posted in the other thread. In defense the incoming energy goes to the ground so you have a better chance of maintaining balance.

Also, if you know what you are doing, you do NOT stay in the pocket. In my school we have 3 main axioms for WC.

1. Simultaneous attack and defense.
2. Never meet force with force (there are no blocks, they are deflections accompanied by relief and/or t-steps to further dissipate energy)
3. Attack from the BLIND side.

3 In terms of # 3, If you see two people who actually know WC it is dizzying because each is constantly trying to attack from a flank and so they will both essentially be walking in circles as they fight (though if you actually watch the foot work, its all angles.)

Interesting. I see some significant parallels with the principles I teach in NGA.

1. The simultaneous attack and defense is found in several arts, and each seems to take a different approach to it, a different way they evolve the principle in practice (for us, it's usually most obvious in us stealing the balance or structure in the process of defending).
2. While I do teach meeting force with force early (because they're going to mess up and do it, anyway, so I give them tools there), that principle holds true, and the force-on-force is only seen in experienced students as a recovery from a blown movement.
3. Blind side is where most of our best work lives, and I like to get close. I refer to this as hiding behind their shoulder. I'm a very creepy teacher sometimes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I Am not sure what you mean by punching "from the pocket."

Also, what do you mean by WC does not effectively kick? If I kick someone in the shin or groin and it causes enough pain where I go on to win the fight, that is pretty effective to me. Might not be a boot to the head like in Tae Kwon Leap, but you don't need to kick high to be effective.

Some folks have a different approach to kicks. I rarely view kicks as finishing moves, and have a view similar to yours. However, I know some folks who won't break out a kick unless they expect it to do actual damage, perhaps ending the fight. They just don't like the trade-off of being on one leg and slowing movement unless there's that level of payoff. Fairly sound logic on both sides of that debate.

 

[wingchun100]

Some folks have a different approach to kicks. I rarely view kicks as finishing moves, and have a view similar to yours. However, I know some folks who won't break out a kick unless they expect it to do actual damage, perhaps ending the fight. They just don't like the trade-off of being on one leg and slowing movement unless there's that level of payoff. Fairly sound logic on both sides of that debate.

I would avoid kicks in a fight for two reasons:

1) My balance is already pretty poor. If I am unknowningly fighting someone who is good at grappling (or even someone who is "bad" at it), I don't need to give them half my balance.

2) I am smaller than most people. I don't want to sacrifice my rooted stance. Why win the battle just to lose the war?

 

[Juany118]

I Am not sure what you mean by punching "from the pocket."

Also, what do you mean by WC does not effectively kick? If I kick someone in the shin or groin and it causes enough pain where I go on to win the fight, that is pretty effective to me. Might not be a boot to the head like in Tae Kwon Leap, but you don't need to kick high to be effective.

Or my favorite target, knees. Hyperextend the knee or even shear the knee cap and the fight is over. However my WC (TWC) has high kicks, though they are admittedly situational.

 

[wingchun100]

Or my favorite target, knees. Hyperextend the knee or even shear the knee cap and the fight is over. However my WC (TWC) has high kicks, though they are admittedly situational.

Yes. Knees, shin, groin, and one of my favorites (although an unusual target): the inner thigh. It's almost comical to watch the leg buckle outward when you hit there. LOL