Certification from orgs like Kukkiwon

[WaterGal]

You have to pay $1300 for two tests for your second dan?

Man I suck as a salesman....

Yeah, man, I was reading the first bit "my 2nd dan is $450", thinking - hey, that's actually what we charge, what a coincidence. And then I read that there was another $750! I don't want to charge that much, but I think I need some sales lessons from Gwai's teacher, hahaha. Maybe they can help me get people to stop complaining so much about the $450 (which includes the KKW fee and a bunch of swag, too, it's not like it's pure profit).

 

[WaterGal]

It can be done electronically. But it's not always.

Are you sure? I could be wrong, but I thought they'd gone 100% to the KMS online system. It's much faster and easier than mailing a stack of paper forms and photos to Korea and someone at KKW trying to read your handwriting and do data entry.

This is a prime example of what I meant in the first place. If the KKW wants people to value their certification over that of the school or kwan, the certificate needs to reflect that. It needs to have the date of the test on it, and it needs to be signed by the person who actually did the test.
The current method basically says "nothing matters except the KKW, your promotion date is when we say it is."

I think we have very different ideas of what the KKW certification means. I see it as an official international recognition of the rank you achieved at your school, not as something "above" or "better" than your teacher's recognition. Basically as something you can take to another school, or to a tournament, and say "yes, this proves I really do have this rank" (since of course that school or tournament may not know your teacher).

(Also, if I had to guess, I suspect the date issue may be to prevent people from backdating applications. "Oh yes, I totally tested this person for 1st dan 6 months ago, I just forgot to tell you about it . Now they can test again in 6 months.")

 

[Dirty Dog]

Are you sure? I could be wrong, but I thought they'd gone 100% to the KMS online system. It's much faster and easier than mailing a stack of paper forms and photos to Korea and someone at KKW trying to read your handwriting and do data entry.

I'm pretty sure I know how we do it, yes.
Our KJN is 78 years old, and not much interested in the electronic age.

I think we have very different ideas of what the KKW certification means. I see it as an official international recognition of the rank you achieved at your school, not as something "above" or "better" than your teacher's recognition. Basically as something you can take to another school, or to a tournament, and say "yes, this proves I really do have this rank".

The question was 'why do people value local certificates more than KKW."
If I go to another school, I don't carry my certificates. I assume I'll be judged on my knowledge and ability.
And the tournament-fetish which many TKD schools have developed is, to my way of thinking, a negative. I know people who have stayed in the geup ranks specifically because they clean up in tournaments.

(Also, if I had to guess, I suspect the date issue may be to prevent people from backdating applications. "Oh yes, I totally tested this person for 1st dan 6 months ago, I just forgot to tell you about it . Now they can test again in 6 months.")

That's just silly. If people want bogus rank, they can get bogus rank. If they want the belt for tournament, then it doesn't matter if they're 1st Dan or 8th.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I think I need some sales lessons from Gwai's teacher, hahaha.

I'm really not trying to bring the old BB fee debate again, but as people have pointed out in the past, it all depends on what's included and the other fees. A couple schools where I have studied have charged black belts much less per month, knowing they get it back on the testing fees (e.g., monthly fees of CAD 120 for lower belts, vs $70-80 for black belts).

My impression is the going rate in my area is about $ 2000/yr for tkd after belt testing. With black belts doing fewer tests than colour belts, and paying less per month, schools charge more on the BB testing to even things out.

I think it's a good policy to reduce black belt monthly fees. It not only encourages students to continue after 1st dan. Of course I don't like the flipside of having higher testing fees to make it up

 

[marques]

For safety, have both. It may be useful. Don't need to compare them.
I've been training since '97 and never gave attention to certificates. Now I am much more qualified than most instructors, including some pseudo grandmasters, but have no credentials on paper. So, I cannot teach 'legally', neither follow amateurs... Happily I found were I can simply practice 'my way'. By now...

 

[Blindside]

In 8 years of running my group I have never had a person ask to see a piece of paper showing my qualifications.

 

[Blindside]

My impression is the going rate in my area is about $ 2000/yr for tkd after belt testing. With black belts doing fewer tests than colour belts, and paying less per month, schools charge more on the BB testing to even things out.

Again, I apparently suck as a salesman.

 

[Azulx]

Again, I apparently suck as a salesman

At our school you will spend no more than $500 a year on TKD.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

At our school you will spend no more than $500 a year on TKD.

Do you use a community centre / school with low rental fees, or do you just have lots of students?

 

[Azulx]

Do you use a community centre / school with low rental fees, or do you just have lots of students?

We use a Recreation Center, so I am assuming that is what you mean by community center. Our school doesn't have to pay rent or bills.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

In 8 years of running my group I have never had a person ask to see a piece of paper showing my qualifications.

When I started again after 20 years as a yellow belt, I was asked if I had my yellow belt certificate . And when I transferred schools as a black belt, I was asked for the KKW number so that they could confirm.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

We use a Recreation Center, so I am assuming that is what you mean by community center. Our school doesn't have to pay rent or bills.

That makes sense. With 100 students, at $2000 each, that gives $200,000 for the all bills including assistant instructors and the KJN's "salary". So it doesn't seem unreasonable. The problem with TKD schools, if you will, is that they only have customers for maybe 30 hours per week. It's hard to run a business with building expenses which is only open 30 hours per week.

 

[Azulx]

That makes sense. With 100 students, at $2000 each, that gives $200,000 for the all bills including assistant instructors and the KJN's "salary". So it doesn't seem unreasonable. The problem with TKD schools, if you will, is that they only have customers for maybe 30 hours per week. It's hard to run a business with building expenses which is only open 30 hours per week.

My Instructor was part of a large North American TKD Association. He always talks about he had had to pay for every little thing, so he went away from them.

 

[Kinghercules]

I've posted about this in the past on here, but I'll highlight my own situation for the sake of discussion.

My KJN is KKW ranked, as he was on the Masters delegation team for the Olympics in '88. He does not issue KKW certs, as we have never taught the newer formsets, so we really don't practice the KKW curriculum. However, I have some interest in the KKW certification, for no other reason than my KJN's age. He won't be around forever, and after he's gone, I would like to have a connection to the larger body of TKD.

It was the hope of my KJN along with 5 other grandmasters here in the states to create a path to preserve the "old curriculum" of TKD, by forming the United States Taekwondo Won back in 1999. I believe that GM Kyongwon AHN was the senior rank of those 6 grandmaster that formed the USTW. The initial meetings included KKW representatives, and things looked promising.

Ultimately, to do political agendas, and power grabs from individual state representatives, the USTW dwindled to where it is now, which is not much.

I feel as if I am stuck in regards to larger orgs, because we don't practice the newer Moo Duk Kwan forms, nor do we practice the newer KKW forms. So I don't really fit in either larger org as far as curriculums go.

Master Al Cole had given me contacts to the Moo Duk Kwan in Korea, before his passing, and I feel that I have a path of certification in the future after my KJN is no longer with us. Master Cole also expressed willingness for me to travel to train with him to gain certification through the KKW, but unfortunately he succumbed to cancer before I had that opportunity.

l know Im being bias here but I think your best bet is the Ki Whang Kim Traditional Martial Arts Association (Ki Whang Kim Traditional Martial Arts Association (KWK-TMAA)).
Ki Whang's name and Albert Cheeks signature still weighs heavy in Korea (if thats what you care about). I got a lot of respect and recondition when I was over there once I told them who I trained under. This guy Amos Johnson got his 3rd Dan from Ki Whang and got promoted by the KKW when he went to Korea but didnt even want it. Danny Jolly got 2nd from Albert Cheeks back in the 80's and when he went to Korea he got 3rd and 4th from KKW and was asked to joined Kuk Sool Won all because he trained under Cheeks.

There aren't many organizations, I dont think, that promote TKD and still do the old school forms. But Im sure there are some ppl on here that can get you in contact with some of the organizations out there that are still doing the old school forms.

 

[Jaeimseu]

l know Im being bias here but I think your best bet is the Ki Whang Kim Traditional Martial Arts Association (Ki Whang Kim Traditional Martial Arts Association (KWK-TMAA)).
Ki Whang's name and Albert Cheeks signature still weighs heavy in Korea (if thats what you care about). I got a lot of respect and recondition when I was over there once I told them who I trained under. This guy Amos Johnson got his 3rd Dan from Ki Whang and got promoted by the KKW when he went to Korea but didnt even want it. Danny Jolly got 2nd from Albert Cheeks back in the 80's and when he went to Korea he got 3rd and 4th from KKW and was asked to joined Kuk Sool Won all because he trained under Cheeks.

There aren't many organizations, I dont think, that promote TKD and still do the old school forms. But Im sure there are some ppl on here that can get you in contact with some of the organizations out there that are still doing the old school forms.

Kukkiwon offers special testings for situations like this to help people obtain certification if they want it. There are avenues to Kukkiwon certification even if you have certification in another org.

On a side note, and I hope this doesn't come across as combative, you seem to have a lot of respect for GM Kim Ki Whang, yet you consistently refer to him by his first name, which comes across, to me at least, as extremely disrespectful. Any reason for that? I'm honestly just curious.


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[WaterGal]

My Instructor was part of a large North American TKD Association. He always talks about he had had to pay for every little thing, so he went away from them.

Well, organization or no, if you're running a full-time commercial school you're definitely paying for every little thing. Renting commercial space isn't like renting an apartment - the landlord does absolutely nothing for you other than maintaining the exterior of the property (trash pickup, lawn maintenance, etc), and they still hit you up for fees to pay for that. *grumble grumble*

 

[Azulx]

Well, organization or no, if you're running a full-time commercial school you're definitely paying for every little thing. Renting commercial space isn't like renting an apartment - the landlord does absolutely nothing for you other than maintaining the exterior of the property (trash pickup, lawn maintenance, etc), and they still hit you up for fees to pay for that. *grumble grumble*

I understand, if one doesn't want to pay for every little thing , they should join a school in a community center like us. Where we don't charge for every little thing.

 

[Kinghercules]

Kukkiwon offers special testings for situations like this to help people obtain certification if they want it. There are avenues to Kukkiwon certification even if you have certification in another org.

On a side note, and I hope this doesn't come across as combative, you seem to have a lot of respect for GM Kim Ki Whang, yet you consistently refer to him by his first name, which comes across, to me at least, as extremely disrespectful. Any reason for that? I'm honestly just curious.


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He was my teacher. I grew up around him. My dad would take me over his house some Sat and I would watch Kung-fu movies while they would talk. All of us that trained under him refer to him as Ki Whang or Whang Ki when we're taking about him. It's an habit that I got from my senior classmates and I type how I speak.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

In another thread a poster mentioned preferring a certificate from his instructor and not valuing a cert from a bigger organization like Kukkiwon. It got me thinking about parallels. I've heard this kind of statement before and I understand the "he's the one who actually trained me" line of thinking, but what other areas would this apply? Are people eschewing their high school and university diplomas in favor of a certificate printed up by one of their teachers?


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Comparing the KKW to a HS or University degree is an apples and oranges comparison though. In both HS and college you have many teachers in many widely different subject teaching you towards a specific goal. The KKW certification on the other hand really only matters if the venue in which you compete, if you compete, requires it. Otherwise, you don't really need it to train in TKD or even teach TKD.

There is validity, to an extent that having the position that the KKW (or many really large organizations) is really a faceless, rubber stamp organization. Or that the KKW has inflated numbers and/or lax standards. And we've had KKW instructors here in the past that have admitted to passing out KKW certificates to practitioners that did not know the KKW training just to inflate membership numbers. This on top of all the corruption that they've been accused of recently and in the past. None of that is a bell winner. Not a KKW-bash, any org can fall into the same category. And not to say that the KKW (and other orgs) don't have some positives to offer. But at least with a personal certification you can point to the very person that trained you and they can testify as to the fact they trained you and how they trained you.

In the end, the skills you can demonstrate and/or teach speak louder than any piece of paper.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Comparing the KKW to a HS or University degree is an apples and oranges comparison though. In both HS and college you have many teachers in many widely different subject teaching you towards a specific goal. The KKW certification on the other hand really only matters if the venue in which you compete, if you compete, requires it. Otherwise, you don't really need it to train in TKD or even teach TKD.

There is validity, to an extent that having the position that the KKW (or many really large organizations) is really a faceless, rubber stamp organization. Or that the KKW has inflated numbers and/or lax standards. And we've had KKW instructors here in the past that have admitted to passing out KKW certificates to practitioners that did not know the KKW training just to inflate membership numbers. This on top of all the corruption that they've been accused of recently and in the past. None of that is a bell winner. Not a KKW-bash, any org can fall into the same category. And not to say that the KKW (and other orgs) don't have some positives to offer. But at least with a personal certification you can point to the very person that trained you and they can testify as to the fact they trained you and how they trained you.

In the end, the skills you can demonstrate and/or teach speak louder than any piece of paper.

I can agree with pretty much everything you said here, though in my personal experience, getting the Kukkiwon cert included the personal certification of my instructor.


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