Certificates does it really matter

[terryl965]

Like the title says does it really matter what certificate you have, if it is a KKW or an ITF or just some generic one that your school gives out. I mean if you our an Olympic hopeful and good enough and do not have a KKW you will by the time the Olympics come around. If you are an ITF person does it matter really which ITF because one org will not recognize another one .

This subject I am bringing up because I am sick and tired of good folks getting dupe by some instructor out there. They are there telling student that they are getting a WTF certificate my God folks they do not give out certs. but yet today I saw one that was just signed and cannot make out the name the date is February 26 2005 and the guy says he has all of his certs. from the World Tae Kwon Do Federation out of Soul Korea, I said you mean the KKW and I was wrong. He then goes on to tell me that I am full of **** and that his certs. and his GM are the most legit people in the world and that the reason people do not get WTF certs. is they cast $5000.00 US dollars and most people just do not have that type of money. I feel sorry for these gullible people and hope there training is better then that certificate.

 

[IcemanSK]

ugh, same story different day.

You bring up 2 things in your OP: 1) Does it matter what organization (or rather, who signs your cert?). 2) Another story of someone getting screwed out of $$ who a worthless certificate.

In the grand skeem (sp?) of things, if it's a legit cert. (even if it's from "Bob's TKD school & Lube") it doesn't matter if you get what you paid for. But, if it's said to be legit & it isn't, it doesn't matter if they paid you to take it....it's still junk. A legit school cert. from a legit school is legit. A bogus cert. from a legit school is garbage. (If I gave out ITF certs. being a KKW guy, it wouldn't be legit.)

For $5K, maybe the guy you saw got it from your one "friend" who just put down big $$ but never tested.

 

[terryl965]

ugh, same story different day.

You bring up 2 things in your OP: 1) Does it matter what organization (or rather, who signs your cert?). 2) Another story of someone getting screwed out of $$ who a worthless certificate.

In the grand skeem (sp?) of things, if it's a legit cert. (even if it's from "Bob's TKD school & Lube") it doesn't matter if you get what you paid for. But, if it's said to be legit & it isn't, it doesn't matter if they paid you to take it....it's still junk. A legit school cert. from a legit school is legit. A bogus cert. from a legit school is garbage. (If I gave out ITF certs. being a KKW guy, it wouldn't be legit.)

For $5K, maybe the guy you saw got it from your one "friend" who just put down big $$ but never tested.

No actually this gentleman is from the Southern California area will not mention school or instructor, but for a piece of mind they are not member here. Speakin of my friend he did get what he paid for a KKW 4th dan and never ever trained a day. Only in today world can this happen.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I was offered to test early for 6th dan KKW in 1999 after being 5th for only two years: IF I would pay a fee of $1800 (BTW, I did nothing to indicate that I had any interest in testing early and had no interest in doing so). That is when and why I quit KKW, though my instructors had done so years peior to this (they had no objection to us keeping our affiliation with them).

 

[newGuy12]

the reason people do not get WTF certs. is they cast $5000.00 US dollars and most people just do not have that type of money.

whoa! Surely not. Tell me I am misreading this!

When I tested for 1st Dan, I had the impression that my GM thought it was important for me to get a KKW certificate. He mentioned it more than once. And, so, I was impressed to get one. It took a long time to get it. I had passed the test, and he told me that I was now his black belt student, but many months passed before I got the certificate. I did not doubt my GM (who was a Master Instructor at the time). I knew from going to that school that whatever he said was right, I would do that.

I still have that certificate, and it is meaningful to me. I have it framed.

$5000 US dollars? Perhaps you put one or two too many zeroes on that figure? That seems terribly high priced. By orders of magnitude!





EDIT --> please be advised that this was in the 1980's when I was given 1st Dan.

 

[newGuy12]

Speakin of my friend he did get what he paid for a KKW 4th dan and never ever trained a day. Only in today world can this happen.

Oh my! My school is no longer affiliated with the KKW. Perhaps this is part of the reason?

Please tell me that I'm not reading this!

 

[exile]

I was offered to test early for 6th dan KKW in 1999 after being 5th for only two years: IF I would pay a fee of $1800 (BTW, I did nothing to indicate that I had any interest in testing early and had no interest in doing so). That is when and why I quit KKW, though my instructors had done so years peior to this (they had no objection to us keeping our affiliation with them).

....I don't know what to say, or what needs to be said after hearing that. It's like... that tells you everything you need to know. The word that comes to mind is corruption, with a capital C and maybe all the other letters in capitals as well...

 

[IcemanSK]

Oh my! My school is no longer affiliated with the KKW. Perhaps this is part of the reason?

Please tell me that I'm not reading this!

Sadly, this does happen. Where there's $$, there's greed. I'm sorry this happened to KJ. The KKW needs good people.

 

[YoungMan]

Given the direction in which the Kukkiwon is heading (GGM Uhm retiring, future uncertain), KKW certification will mean less and less, if it even exists in five years.
What will happen is KKW certification will be supplanted by Instructor certification. Under Dr. Kim, pretty much anyone could get KKW certification, which cheapened it and led to a LOT of questionable black belts and so-called Masters.
I believe in the near future, what Instructor issued your certificate will become more important than KKW certification.

 

[terryl965]

Given the direction in which the Kukkiwon is heading (GGM Uhm retiring, future uncertain), KKW certification will mean less and less, if it even exists in five years.
What will happen is KKW certification will be supplanted by Instructor certification. Under Dr. Kim, pretty much anyone could get KKW certification, which cheapened it and led to a LOT of questionable black belts and so-called Masters.
I believe in the near future, what Instructor issued your certificate will become more important than KKW certification.

This I also believe will come to pass, to me it has always been about linage and not who you know that knows somebody.

 

[Xue Sheng]

To me a certificate is a piece of paper that means little.

I had an owner of a Judo school many years ago that was trying to get me to teach Taiji at his school. However, per him, in order for his insurance to cover me I had to be a certified member of his Judo organization (I do not remember which one). My response was I do not want to train Judo; I am here because you asked me to teach Taiji. His response was it is no big deal I will just write it up and get you the cert. Damn I could have been certified in Judo and I passed it up. Why because I did not deserve any certification in Judo because I did not train Judo.

My first CMA Sifu use to (and still does) give out all sorts of certifications. The first ones he gave out were taken by many of his students at the time and many went off proclaiming mastery of CMA and went off teaching. Funny thing about those certifications, they were written in Chinese and they had his picture on it and looked VERY official. A friend of mine that was from Beijing that was also in the class asked me if I knew what it said. I said per the Sifu it was a teaching certificate (and that is what he said it was) my friend said no it just says that he taught you 24 form.

So certificates to me mean little it is the skill of the teacher that matters first and lineage is somewhere after that.

 

[exile]

This I also believe will come to pass, to me it has always been about linage and not who you know that knows somebody.

Terry, we've talked about this before along similar lines, and you mentioned that there was a group of disaffected dojan owners/senior TKD people who were talking about starting new, more CQ/SD-oriented federation focusing on the early, pre-'Olympic Glory' version of TKD... can you tell us anything more about that? I've been hoping for a while to hear further news on that development.

 

[newGuy12]

This I also believe will come to pass, to me it has always been about linage and not who you know that knows somebody.

Terry, we've talked about this before along similar lines, and you mentioned that there was a group of disaffected dojan owners/senior TKD people who were talking about starting new, more CQ/SD-oriented federation focusing on the early, pre-'Olympic Glory' version of TKD... can you tell us anything more about that? I've been hoping for a while to hear further news on that development.

Well, well, well. Back to the beginnings. Not a bad development that would be. Modern day "kwans", if you please.

 

[exile]

This I also believe will come to pass, to me it has always been about linage and not who you know that knows somebody.

Terry, we've talked about this before along similar lines, and you mentioned that there was a group of disaffected dojan owners/senior TKD people who were talking about starting new, more CQ/SD-oriented federation focusing on the early, pre-'Olympic Glory' version of TKD... can you tell us anything more about that? I've been hoping for a while to hear further news on that development.

Well, well, well. Back to the beginnings. Not a bad development that would be. Modern day "kwans", if you please.

Yup, that was the idea. I've felt in my bones for a long time that something like this was coming down the pike...

 

[Xue Sheng]

pre-'Olympic Glory' version of TKD.

This is the TKD I trained and from what I have seen of many TKD schools out there in my area today, I can only hope it returns.

 

[jim777]

All that really matters to me in TKD is the belt, and when I get it from my instructor I'll be set. I should say also that the only reason the belt means anything to me is that I know the people and instructors who award them, and it therefore is both a reflection of my respect for them and my ability to master the basics. It is not simply because of what others might read into the belt's color or markings. Whatever certificate I receive will only hang on the wall in the same dojang anyway, as it does for all of the instructors. If anyone should question my credentials, I will be able to back them up right there and then :lol:
If I were in my 20's, and not mid 40's I would likely think differently, though. It is a lot easier in that regard to start later in life, when a career in the arts isn't really a possibility.

When I get my certificate of BB in Seido, I'll get it from the founder of the style as I study at the Honbu in NY, so I don't worry about that either.

I would love to say the certificate doesn't mean anything really, as it doesn't to me, but I know it does to a lot of folks. TKD is a mess with all of the many different groups and 'authorities' in this regard. I don't wonder it is confusing to those who don't study it.

 

[exile]

This is the TKD I trained and from what I have seen of many TKD schools out there in my area today, I can only hope it returns.

Ditto, XS. Things really seem to have swung way too far in the direction of purely sport competition. A lot of us signed on with TKD for very different reasons than the kind of athletic spectacle the art seems to be under pressure to turn 100% into. No one begrudges the sparring competitors their fun, but there needs to be a big chunk of the art which provides a home for schools and instructional programs that emphasize the fighting-art side of TKD. Otherwise, over time, people will become disillusioned and go elsewhere... it does happen.

 

[terryl965]

Terry, we've talked about this before along similar lines, and you mentioned that there was a group of disaffected dojan owners/senior TKD people who were talking about starting new, more CQ/SD-oriented federation focusing on the early, pre-'Olympic Glory' version of TKD... can you tell us anything more about that? I've been hoping for a while to hear further news on that development.

Exile I PM you but I will put it out here for all the two high ranking Koreans and the American could not or would not agree when it came time to sign the docs. to get the organization together once again ego's got in the way of who would be the true leader. I am hoping that me and GM Kim alond with GM Combe and few other still might be able to bring this together over the next year. I am sure there are a few more people pissed off and looking for other means to do the right thing. I have never had that big head I am GOD type of attitude so I do not really understand why folks get like that especially since they have been talking about it for a year and then not come to an agreement over prity personal pide ********.

 

[igillman]

To me the certificate means very little. What is important is what you can do and what you can teach. We have some black belts at our place that I think got their belts from a promotional mail in run by Kellogs. We also have some very good coloured belts who I trust to teach me how to do things properly. For a while our school was big on "double testing" and put people too far up too quickly. I was told that I could double test but I resisted and I am glad that I did. I am a lower belt than some of the people who started with me but I am just as capable and sometimes more capable than some of them.

However, when transfering schools a certificate shows that you didn't buy the belt from Wal-Mart but, then again, so does a quick testing session.

 

[exile]

Exile I PM you but I will put it out here for all the two high ranking Koreans and the American could not or would not agree when it came time to sign the docs. to get the organization together once again ego's got in the way of who would be the true leader. I am hoping that me and GM Kim alond with GM Combe and few other still might be able to bring this together over the next year. I am sure there are a few more people pissed off and looking for other means to do the right thing. I have never had that big head I am GOD type of attitude so I do not really understand why folks get like that especially since they have been talking about it for a year and then not come to an agreement over prity personal pide ********.

I'm sorry to hear about that, Terry... but you know, it will happen. There's that great line, Mightier than all the armies is an idea whose time has come, and this idea's time has definitely come. Good luck to you folk on getting it going; once it's been started, I predict that a lot of outfits will flock to your banner.