Car Fu

[Bill Mattocks]

Yeah, that is pretty clear. Why people make it difficult I don't know either, but I could imagine that great many people have never even punched a person in the face. Perhaps there is a mentality that dictates that rather than actually punching, it's the visceral feeling of the after affect that drives humans to not doing what they could do, or even should do.

That's a very good point. As we've become more civilized, we have stepped away from the understanding that we have a set of fangs, we're the top of the food chain, the apex predators, for a very good reason - we're deadly killers and always have been. Maybe it's good that we shy away from that; but the bad guys don't, and that works against us if we can't wake up the demon inside when we need it.

 

[Transk53]

That's a very good point. As we've become more civilized, we have stepped away from the understanding that we have a set of fangs, we're the top of the food chain, the apex predators, for a very good reason - we're deadly killers and always have been. Maybe it's good that we shy away from that; but the bad guys don't, and that works against us if we can't wake up the demon inside when we need it.

Yes the demon inside all of us. I used to believe that our nature could be controlled, and that military was a good way of doing that. Well maybe not a good, but sure you can see what I mean. Take away whatever switch controls murderous, or homicidal intent, would be the answer. But having been able to watch human behaviour, or preventing fights etc, I have concluded that human instinct, I.E. not wanting to cause proper harm, is challenged when human instinct is challenged beyond reason.

 

[Blindside]

Saw this and thought of this thread.

 

[Juany118]

If you think you're a sitting duck by just being in the car, the seatbelt makes you so much more so.

Don't pull over for someone you don't know whom you aren't reasonably certain is law enforcement nor emergency services.

When I lived in Westchester County, NY, a friend of mine who was a corrections officer was telling me about a string of incidents involving people criminals getting the flashing lights that magnetically stick to the roof that you see in movies that undercover cops use. They were pulling people over and robbing them. The area had far more legitimate unmarked cars than the typical Caprices and Crown Victorias.

His advice was if an unmarked car is trying to pull you over, drive as if you don't know they're behind you and call 911. If it's legitimate, they should be able to tell you and confirm with the cop that you weren't intentionally evading. If not, you've got 911 on your side.

Check with your jurisdiction on that last bit. The law doesn't cover that as an option in mine and even if you eventually stop you can find yourself being taken out of the car at gun point. Why? Let me explain to you the inefficient nature of dispatch.

First, background. This is the dispatch system for a county with over 50 PDs split up into a number of dispatch zones.

1. Call to 911 goes to a "call taker" not dispatcher. This person's job is to enter location and basic information into a computer that then automatically ships the call to the "dispatcher." The call taker may be able to access the data of an officer calling in a vehicle failing to stop but if you say "I am at Main and York Sts" but the officer called in "trying to stop a car at 2nd and Pine" when it started they won't find it. You would think "hey just mention the town. Okay...Well the City I work in shares it's zip codes with 7 other jurisdictions that surround us, 3 of which are in a completely different county. So if you say "Citytown USA" and you are actually in "Township USA", they can't even look it up by typing XXPD into the system (every PD as a 2 digit number identifier) and that before we talk about the ones potentially not on the County Dispatch system, either because they use State Police Coverage or are in a different County (both different dispatch systems.). All of these potentially lead to you still catching a fleeing and eluding case.

Your best bet is to familiarize yourself with the proper color and mounting of lights on patrol cars. If you don't know or still doubt, and aren't in the boondocks, put on your hazard lights and drive to a well lit and/or populated location to pullover. If none of that works, play the odds. The chances of you actually being stopped by an impersonator are pretty slim. The stats get tilted by things like phone calls claiming to be police demanding payment for unpaid fines, people claiming to be police officers as part of a resume for self defense classes or to get discounts on education at Colleges etc.

 

[JR 137]

Check with your jurisdiction on that last bit. The law doesn't cover that as an option in mine and even if you eventually stop you can find yourself being taken out of the car at gun point. Why? Let me explain to you the inefficient nature of dispatch.

First, background. This is the dispatch system for a county with over 50 PDs split up into a number of dispatch zones.

1. Call to 911 goes to a "call taker" not dispatcher. This person's job is to enter location and basic information into a computer that then automatically ships the call to the "dispatcher." The call taker may be able to access the data of an officer calling in a vehicle failing to stop but if you say "I am at Main and York Sts" but the officer called in "trying to stop a car at 2nd and Pine" when it started they won't find it. You would think "hey just mention the town. Okay...Well the City I work in shares it's zip codes with 7 other jurisdictions that surround us, 3 of which are in a completely different county. So if you say "Citytown USA" and you are actually in "Township USA", they can't even look it up by typing XXPD into the system (every PD as a 2 digit number identifier) and that before we talk about the ones potentially not on the County Dispatch system, either because they use State Police Coverage or are in a different County (both different dispatch systems.). All of these potentially lead to you still catching a fleeing and eluding case.

Your best bet is to familiarize yourself with the proper color and mounting of lights on patrol cars. If you don't know or still doubt, and aren't in the boondocks, put on your hazard lights and drive to a well lit and/or populated location to pullover. If none of that works, play the odds. The chances of you actually being stopped by an impersonator are pretty slim. The stats get tilted by things like phone calls claiming to be police demanding payment for unpaid fines, people claiming to be police officers as part of a resume for self defense classes or to get discounts on education at Colleges etc.

My post was meant to come across as if you're really unsure and fearing the person pulling you over is an imposter.

If I had a bad feeling about it, I'd call 911 and let them know I don't think it's an actual police officer. I'd give them the plate number of the vehicle following me if possible and follow what they say. If they say pull over, I'll do so. If they say don't and give me alternate instructions, I'll follow those.

Now that I think of it, quite a while back, a guy bought a former police cruiser and put some lights behind the grill. He pulled a friend of mine's sister over one night. When he got to the window, she realized what was going on, took off and called 911.

Unfortunately for him, her father was a police officer in the jurisdiction it occurred and both brothers were corrections officers at the county jail. He admitted his intent was to rob and rape her. He'd been convicted of it in the past.

Don't ask me how I forgot about that one.

And as someone locally found out the hard way recently, the police department isn't always staffed, especially at night. Rather than driving to the police station and getting robbed and beaten up as you're trying to open the door and run in, go to the fire station instead. Always someone there.

It's a sick world out there.

 

[Juany118]

My post was meant to come across as if you're really unsure and fearing the person pulling you over is an imposter.

If I had a bad feeling about it, I'd call 911 and let them know I don't think it's an actual police officer. I'd give them the plate number of the vehicle following me if possible and follow what they say. If they say pull over, I'll do so. If they say don't and give me alternate instructions, I'll follow those.

Now that I think of it, quite a while back, a guy bought a former police cruiser and put some lights behind the grill. He pulled a friend of mine's sister over one night. When he got to the window, she realized what was going on, took off and called 911.

Unfortunately for him, her father was a police officer in the jurisdiction it occurred and both brothers were corrections officers at the county jail. He admitted his intent was to rob and rape her. He'd been convicted of it in the past.

Don't ask me how I forgot about that one.

And as someone locally found out the hard way recently, the police department isn't always staffed, especially at night. Rather than driving to the police station and getting robbed and beaten up as you're trying to open the door and run in, go to the fire station instead. Always someone there.

It's a sick world out there.

Well regarding the first point, and your example. That is why I said get familiar with where the lights are on real unmarked cares. Many States have standards on the placement of lights on unmarked vehicles. Just a couple of cheap lights in the grill wouldn't cut it my State so if I saw them I would immediately call BS.

My point about describing the dispatch thing is to illustrate how convoluted the process can be and how the call taker might not even know who/what agency to say "stand down" to and your "alternate instructions" can still result in you being removed from a car at gun point where things can go bad, and if the "go good", sitting in lock up. Maybe you get released if it gets sorted out OR maybe you end up waiting to see a Judge for a preliminary arraignment on fleeing and eluding charges.

At least in my town fleeing to elude has gone up dramatically over the last couple years. It's a screwed up world all around and in some cases (this may be one of em) there are no real right or wrong answers its all about playing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well regarding the first point, and your example. That is why I said get familiar with where the lights are on real unmarked cares. Many States have standards on the placement of lights on unmarked vehicles. Just a couple of cheap lights in the grill wouldn't cut it my State so if I saw them I would immediately call BS.

My point about describing the dispatch thing is to illustrate how convoluted the process can be and how the call taker might not even know who/what agency to say "stand down" to and your "alternate instructions" can still result in you being removed from a car at gun point where things can go bad, and if the "go good", sitting in lock up. Maybe you get released if it gets sorted out OR maybe you end up waiting to see a Judge for a preliminary arraignment on fleeing and eluding charges.

At least in my town fleeing to elude has gone up dramatically over the last couple years. It's a screwed up world all around and in some cases (this may be one of em) there are no real right or wrong answers its all about playing.

Yeah, the issue here is definitely two-sided. From the civilian point of view, the advice of driving until you find a safe place seems sound. If you include the LEO point of view, that can look a lot like some instances that went south really fast for them, which raises the stress level, gets guns out, and raises the chance of things "going bad" for everyone involved.

I suspect there's not a lot of risk in delaying pulling over very briefly - putting on hazard flashers, slowing down, and continuing a block or so to a lighted area where others could witness. Beyond that, the LEO behind you has to start wondering what's going on.

 

[Juany118]

Yeah, the issue here is definitely two-sided. From the civilian point of view, the advice of driving until you find a safe place seems sound. If you include the LEO point of view, that can look a lot like some instances that went south really fast for them, which raises the stress level, gets guns out, and raises the chance of things "going bad" for everyone involved.

I suspect there's not a lot of risk in delaying pulling over very briefly - putting on hazard flashers, slowing down, and continuing a block or so to a lighted area where others could witness. Beyond that, the LEO behind you has to start wondering what's going on.

What makes it more complicated is this. It is literally standard practice that if the officer perceives it is a "pursuit" situation, if the car stops you initiate a felony car stop, which means gun drawn, behind the door and yelling (or PA) "driver, stick both hands out the window. With your left hand reach across and remove the keys from the ignition. Take the keys and place them on the roof of the vehicle..." yada yada yada.

 

[TieXiongJi]

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer (or a cop) this is not legal advice. My opinion only.

When you are in your car, you are wearing bogu (armor). It is both a help and a hindrance with regard to self-defense.

Some folks have a belief that they are not allowed to intentionally hit someone with their car. While this is normally true, when we're talking about self-defense, it's just another deadly weapon. Like a gun or a knife. It can and will maim and kill other people. However, there is nothing in the self-defense laws that says you can't use it for legal self-defense against a deadly threat (in places and circumstances where deadly force is permitted in self-defense at all, that is).

A car is a dangerous place to be if you are approached by attackers. If a person or people manage to make it to your door, they can keep your door closed quite easily, denying you the ability to escape the vehicle. If they have a gun, well, you have heard the term 'like shooting fish in a barrel,' haven't you? You're the fish, in this case, and your car is the barrel.

If they block your car in, once again, you typically can't easily escape.

Therefore, do not allow this to happen to you.

Remember that your car is armor. It can trap you, but it can also protect you. You can use it as a battering ram. You can use it to escape at high speed.

My personal opinion is this: I would never allow an obviously-angry road-rage type driver to exit his vehicle and step up to my car door with me inside.

Exiting the vehicle puts me in a dangerous situation. Now I am going to have to fight mostly likely and I don't know if he has friends in his car, if he's armed, or if he was actually just planning to steal my car (a common tactic in Detroit, FYI). Staying in my car is equally dangerous, for reasons stated above.

Therefore, I am going to use my car to escape if I can. I will back up at high speed if possible, spin my car around, and drive in the opposite direction at a high rate of speed. What if a cop sees me? I hope a cop DOES see me!

I'll drive up on the curb. I will drive into the oncoming lane (if safely possible). I don't give a dang, this is a life-threatening situation and I am LEAVING.

And if I think I have no other choice to protect my life as well as the lives of anyone who might be in my vehicle, I will drive over the person who is approaching me in a threatening manner. I'll smush him between my car and his, I don't care.

Here's the thought-pattern behind this.

First, he has done something to convince me he's a road-rager and not someone who merely wants to tell me my taillight is out. Maybe he's been cutting me off, swerving at me, following me with his middle finger extended, etc, etc. In any case, I am fully aware of his hostile nature and intent.

Second, he has either followed me as I stopped or he has forced me to stop by cutting me off and slamming on his brakes. He has me cornered.

Third, he has exiting his vehicle and is advancing towards my car in a menacing manner. I don't know what he intends to do, but I am scared (in the legal sense) that he intends to kill me or do me great bodily harm. And it won't be hard to do - he could pull a gun and just murder me right there in the driver's seat, and I could do nothing to stop him. I could get out and run and he could shoot me before I got ten steps away.

Given the circumstances, I am in what the courts call "the reasonable person" description of fear of my life.

That allows me legally to defend myself, even using deadly force. Even before I have seen a gun. The law does not require you to get hit before you hit back. It doesn't require you to get shot at before you shoot back. It requires that a so-called 'reasonable person' would be in legitimate fear of their life. And that definition has been met.

I drop the car into gear, gun it, and escape if I can. Again, if there is no other way for me to leave, I'm going to drive right over that bastich.

Again, I am not a lawyer, this isn't legal advice. Read up on the laws of self-defense and use of deadly force in the location where you are; pay an attorney for advice if you are still unclear. This is my opinion only. But my advice is this - remember that your car is a weapon, and a legitimate one to use if you must in a self-defense situation.

Pretty god damn reasonable argument.

 

[TieXiongJi]

If you think you're a sitting duck by just being in the car, the seatbelt makes you so much more so.

Don't pull over for someone you don't know whom you aren't reasonably certain is law enforcement nor emergency services.

That is the safest route, but it leads to a callous society. Someone asking for help on the side of the road? If I can help, I will. Maybe that is the day I die, but I can't bring myself to ignore others.

When I lived in Westchester County, NY, a friend of mine who was a corrections officer was telling me about a string of incidents involving people criminals getting the flashing lights that magnetically stick to the roof that you see in movies that undercover cops use. They were pulling people over and robbing them. The area had far more legitimate unmarked cars than the typical Caprices and Crown Victorias.

You called out one of the problems with unmarked police vehicles.

His advice was if an unmarked car is trying to pull you over, drive as if you don't know they're behind you and call 911. If it's legitimate, they should be able to tell you and confirm with the cop that you weren't intentionally evading. If not, you've got 911 on your side.

I have heard similar advice from a anarchist who was afraid of all official government representatives.
I asked a cop friend, told me, "You're friend is paranoid and crazy." Paraphrasing; Driving more than 1 mile after being flashed is cause for aggressive pursuit.

Quick story; Woman's brakes went out and for some reason she couldn't slow down. Cops are pursuing her, but she can't pull over because of her speed. Calls 911 and gets connected to the police who instruct her how to stop in her situation.
So I do agree having 911 on the phone is better than not if you are in danger.

 

[PiedmontChun]

I liv in a small-ish city, under 100,000 people. No huge drug problems or crime, just normal underbelly stuff that any town near an interstate would have. Yet, we have a high ratio of unmarked police cars to marked police cars, with no real reason that's been articulated by the department. Most middle class (and white) people don't care, don't have any concern, but there was a march and petition by some civil rights groups and among their demands for local law enforcement or the city was for police cars to be clearly marked. For the most part, there was a write up in the news paper, some citizens disregarding them or even worse, labeling the peaceful protesters 'thugs'. Nothing came of it that I am aware of.

It really got my head thinking about the issue of unmarked cop cars, as someone who often is suspicious of police, and always a fan of government authority being kept in check. If I was a person of color, in a bad neighborhood, being pulled over without knowing why I was being pulled over - adding the scary component of not being able to 100% trust that the person pulling me over actually has both the jurisdiction and cause to pull me over makes a bad situation worse.
The last thing we need as a society is people even more paranoid during a traffic stop over a broken tag light, who then act distressed, and then it escalates to where someone gets hurt. Unless you are truly going undercover, and have reason for it, I don't see the value or benefit of unmarked cop cars.
Even as a non person of color, if I see flashing lights, I am pulling over somewhere safe and preferably with video camera surveillance like a convenience store, if I can't make out who is even pulling me over because they are unmarked, I am going to pull over in the most absolutely PUBLIC place I possibly can.