FriedRice
Master Black Belt
haha, no thanks.
Capoeira Kick
- Thread starter PhotonGuy
- Start date
haha, no thanks.
FriedRice
Master Black Belt
I don't believe you.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Ok, you are clearly not understanding what I was saying earlier.
This is fundamental to statistics and research methods. When collecting data, one very important point is that you need to control for outside influences that might have an affect on your research and alter your results in ways that distort the data and the conclusions that you can draw from it.
For example: comparing two different people who each do a different kick. Those two people are not identical. Their training histories are different, their physical fitness is different, their natural talents and athleticism are different, and their comprehension of their kicks is different as well as state of mind that day, whether they had enough sleep or too much coffee or too much fruit loops for breakfast, or are hung over, etc. Those issues will have an affect on how well or how powerfully they throw their kicks. You cannot conclude from such an experiment that either of the kicks is better or more powerful. The only conclusion you could make is that person A was able to kick more powerfully with kick Y on that particular day, than person B was able to do with kick Z. You can only make a judgement about the person’s ability on that day, with that technique. You cannot make a judgement about the technique itself. When comparing two people doing something like throwing kicks, you cannot establish controls on the experiment that effectively negate those issues and influences that I listed above.
Likewise, having trained in other kicks and other martial techniques will influence how the kick being tested is performed. The mere fact of having trained in other techniques will further contaminate the results of the experiment, because the kick is not pure of other influences and therefore you cannot make reliable conclusions about the kick itself. You can only make conclusions about the ability of the person throwing the kick, on that day, or even only at that moment.
This is why I say these comparisons are pointless. You cannot draw reliable conclusions from it, at least not in the way they are suggesting you can. All that matters is can person A use kick Y effectively? If so, he can make use of it.
If you or someone else cannot use kick Y effectively, then don’t try to use it, at least without further training. But your or someone else’s inability to use kick Y in no way affects the ability of person A to use it. Just because you may not be able to do it, does not mean that others also cannot do it.
Does that clear up your confusion?
IvanTheBrick
Orange Belt
Capoeira kicks generate power by using the momentum transferred from the ginga. The ginger is the guard or stance: the uniqueness in it is that it requires constant movement. The whole point of Capoeira is deception and constant fluidity which is why you can see the little spin on his kick which if I remember correctly it is called the Macaco (monkey). If anyone has questions on Capoeira they can ask here or PM me.
FriedRice
Master Black Belt
Yeah, it's basically winding up. The more you wind up, the more you're telegraphing your strikes. When you don't wind up, then you're sacrificing power for more stealth, which has a much higher chance of landing to follow up for the KO, etc.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
What is your background in capoeira? There are a few of us here who know something about it...
IvanTheBrick
Orange Belt
I am a Capoerista myself and have 1 year of experience.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Great! With whom are you training?
I don't think the karate guy was there to skew numbers, I just don't think he understood how the force was being measured.
A front push kick/teep/snap kick/(insert system terminology here) like he did actually has the potential to transfer much more energy than a roundhouse/turning kick/(insert system terminology here).
Want to shift a rock or something with your foot? You essentially do a push kick.
Kick against a kick shield - you can make the pad holder move much further with a push kick or a side kick than with a turning kick.
A different system of measurement would see the karate guy win it by a country mile (if he was being compared to 3 turning kicks).
A poor comparison - your car runs out of fuel, so you push it. A haymaker won't get it to the pump...
Put your car on a level surface, in neutral and with the handbrake off.
Perform a push kick to the bumper.
I bet the car moves.
Now try to move it with a roundhouse. Get anyone to try moving it with a roundhouse, including the 3 guys in that video.
I can move my Land Rover with a push kick, but I can't move it with a turning kick. Conversely, I can perform a much more effective break with a turning kick.
That's a measurable difference right there.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Within the context of the game and application, it isn’t preamble. It is part of the movement and positioning and repositioning and set-up of the opponent. Like anything, it makes sense in the proper context.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
It's not an assumption a different sort of impact and a different sort of kick.
It's also a name...
What you call driving through the target can be called pushing it.
With what I call a push kick, I don't place my foot and then push, I snap into an impact and push/drive through. That's not possible in the same way with a turning kick.
Edit: in tkd I call it a front snap kick, in kickboxing I call it a push kick - different names, essentially the same thing.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Ok, but either way it hits with impact and then causes displacement, sometimes severely.
I guess what I’ve seen is people seeming to want to diminish the quality of the kick. “It’s not really a kick, it’s just a push”. I say nonsense. Driving through/push, whatever you want to call it, it can be damn effective.
I didn't say it wouldn't be effective - in certain cases it's far more effective than a turning kick, in other cases less so.
Me calling it a "push" is entirely semantics, and I wouldn't say “It’s not really a kick, it’s just a push”.
It's certainly still a kick, and you have the option to add a violent push (drive through, whatever) or snap it back.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Force is Mass * Acceleration. Energy is K.E. = 1/2M * V^2. Since his mass is relatively small and his velocity is very high I would use the energy formula to compare the two. I think it works either way though.
Now you're specifying a system of measuring the energy, which was not the case before. And you are also implying taking that measurement at the moment of impact and ignoring what follows.
And while force is indeed mass X acceleration, you need to account for the effective mass in a push kick.
Following the initial impact (where the mass is equal to a turning kick, i.e. the leg, but the velocity is inarguably lower) you have the mass of the body, plus the strength of the leg muscles pushing that mass forward quickly, which increases Mef markedly.
Just stood up, yeah, I'd likely prefer to take a push kick because I can move with it far easier.
My back against a wall though? That's a different matter.
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