Can You Be An Expert?

[ballen0351]

He still sounds like an academic to me. Expert, sure, but in the same way a historian might be an expert on medieval warfare strategy. A historian might know everything there is to know about a trebuchet, but that doesn't mean he could build or operate one.

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An expert is an expert is an expert. I'm not sure what more you want him to do. You asked can you be an expert on a topic and not actually preform the topic. Well the answer is yes.

 

[CNida]

An expert is an expert is an expert. I'm not sure what more you want him to do. You asked can you be an expert on a topic and not actually preform the topic. Well the answer is yes.

I fail to see how.

I actually don't understand where the argument comes from for the OP's question.

Someone claiming to be an expert in self defense without ever actually having to have defended themselves in a altercation would be the same as someone claiming to be an Olympic swimmer but have never actually gone swimming, or even know how to swim for that matter.

I just don't see how.

I may know all 178 different techniques for a certain martial art, but that doesn't make me an expert in doing them.

It all comes down to the difference between knowledge and wisdom IMO. Not that my opinion is worth much.


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[Steve]

An expert is an expert is an expert. I'm not sure what more you want him to do. You asked can you be an expert on a topic and not actually preform the topic. Well the answer is yes.

Whether he's an expert isn't the question. Clearly, if you think he's credible, he knows a lot about the subject. But can he do it? You've acknowledged that he can't. He's an analyst

What specifically is his expertise? That's the question.

And, I didn't ask whether you can be an expert on a topic. That's a given. Knowledge is a matter of research. I can read all of the instructional books on bjj abd memorize then all. I could study and become an expert on the subject of bjj. But does that mean I can execute any of those techniques? I would argue that I would be functionally incompetent to execute even the simplest of them.

Surely you understand t he difference. An academic knows all about something, but can't necessarily do it.

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[ballen0351]

the question was can you be an expert in self defense without doing it. He is an expert in officer survival or in other words self defense. He is not and never has been a police officer. Maybe you dont consider him an expert but i do and the 100 other cops in that room did and since he traveled all over the US teaching officer survival skills many other people considered him an expert

 

[seasoned]

Then of course there are the experts that are expert at cranking someones chain......

 

[Steve]

Can he walk the talk, as tgace put it? If not, his expertise is academic. That doesn't mean it is without value. It just means he can't do it.

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[ballen0351]

Can he walk the talk, as tgace put it? If not, his expertise is academic. That doesn't mean it is without value. It just means he can't do it.

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You dont need to do it. At least not to me I could care less if you can do it as long as what your teaching is sound. I dont need to hear your super cop stories first to make me listen to you.

 

[Steve]

You dont need to do it. At least not to me I could care less if you can do it as long as what your teaching is sound. I dont need to hear your super cop stories first to make me listen to you.

But what is the difference between someone who knows a lot and someone who can do it?

Edit. Nevermind. As I said before, you argue just to argue. You win. If you actually want to discuss something, let me know.

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[ballen0351]

But what is the difference between someone who knows a lot and someone who can do it?

Edit. Nevermind. As I said before, you argue just to argue. You win. If you actually want to discuss something, let me know.

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Why do you care if the guy teaching it can do it as long as what hes teaching is correct. One of my best teachers in the police academy was in a wheel chair. He was in a motorcycle accident and lost the use of his legs. He cant walk the talk anymore but he knew more about undercover drug work then anyone Ive ever met and Ive meet many deep cover officers this guy was the best. Does it matter that he cant do it anymore?

And I thought we were discussing things dont get your undies in a bunch

 

[Steve]

Why do you care if the guy teaching it can do it as long as what hes teaching is correct. One of my best teachers in the police academy was in a wheel chair. He was in a motorcycle accident and lost the use of his legs. He cant walk the talk anymore but he knew more about undercover drug work then anyone Ive ever met and Ive meet many deep cover officers this guy was the best. Does it matter that he cant do it anymore?

So you're saying he was experienced. I see a clear difference between this guy and the analyst. Both might have valuable information to share.

You're grasping at straws, Ballen. I don't believe that you don't get the point. I just don't believe you don't see the difference between this guy and your analyst.

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[ballen0351]

So you're saying he was experienced. I see a clear difference between this guy and the analyst. Both might have valuable information to share.

You're grasping at straws, Ballen. I don't believe that you don't get the point. I just don't believe you don't see the difference between this guy and your analyst.

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there is no difference. Why does it matter to you if a guy teaching you something has actually done it if what hes teaching works?

 

[ballen0351]

I guess the part I dont understand is If Im the expert teaching a self defense class. I teach bad guy punches at you, you do the following X,Y,Z. If your think yeah X,Y,Z makes total sense #1 why would you care if the teacher tried it before #2 how would you even know if he has done it unless he tells you, #3 if he did tell you how do you know hes telling the truth. Id rather look at whats being taught, I dont really care about the person teaching it. Ive been to so many cop classes where the teacher spends the first 2 hours telling "one time at band camp" stories. I dont care about your stories just teach the class

 

[K-man]

Kman, you seem to be a little defensive. I see plenty of relevance, but if you're determined not to see it, nothing I say will change your mind.

I'm pretty sure I'm not bashing you or your school, or your system for that matter. Many agree that you fight how you train. I agree. You will do what you are training to do. Every style, however, trains you to do different things.

Just think about this. Defending yourself is only one small part of self defense, just as financial management is only one small part of a successful marriage.

Mate I'm not being defensive defensive at all and I'm not thinking at all that you are bashing my system. The post that wingchun100 posted was off topic but deserving of a reply, which I did. You responded with a one liner to which I asked you to clarify. You referred me back to the beginning of the thread so I would get the gist of your response. I did. I read every one of your posts on a different issue and didn't find any that really fitted with the post I was responding to. So I still don't know why you disagree.

But that aside, now you say defending yourself is only a small part of self defence. I disagree. Defending yourself, as in taking responsibility for your own safety, begins the moment you step outside your door and continues until you are home again. Self defence is a small but important part of defending yourself. You could even argue that you are defending yourself with the precautions taken when you are at home, so definition is important.

Self Defence

The protection of one's person or property against some injury attempted by another.
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Self-Defense


n
1. the act of defending oneself, one's actions, ideas, etc.
2. (Individual Sports & Recreations / Boxing) boxing as a means of defending the person (esp in the phrase noble art of self-defence)
3. (Law) Law the right to defend one's person, family, or property against attack or threat of attack by the use of no more force than is reasonable
self-defensive adj
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/self-defence



: the act of defending yourself, your property, etc.


: skills that make you capable of protecting yourself during an attack

Full Definition of SELF-DEFENSE


1
: a plea of justification for the use of force or for homicide
2
: the act of defending oneself, one's property, or a close relative
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-defense

noun
1.
the act of defending one's person when physically attacked, as by countering blows or overcoming an assailant: the art of self-defense.
2.
a claim or plea that the use of force or injuring or killing another was necessary in defending one's own person from physical attack: He shot the man who was trying to stab him and pleaded self-defense at the murder trial.
3.
an act or instance of defending or protecting one's own interests, property, ideas, etc., as by argument or strategy.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/self-defense

So it seems that the legal definition of 'self defence' is the actual protection of the person, not the additional steps that can be taken to try to avoid a physical confrontation.

Now let's look at what constitutes a martial art according to the dictionary.

martial art
n.
Any of several Asian arts of combat or self-defense, such as aikido, karate, judo, or tae kwon do, usually practiced as sport. Often used in the plural.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/martial+art


martial arts
noun
any of the traditional forms of Oriental self-defense or combat that utilize physical skill and coordination without weapons, as karate, aikido, judo, or kung fu, often practiced as sport.

Mmm! They all seem to include self defence in the definition of Martial Art.

So I say that teaching a martial art is teaching self defence. wingchun100's Sifu teaches self defence separate to Wing Chun. To me that opens a number of possibilities ...
1. Wing Chun is not a martial art.
2. Wing Chun is a martial art but is ineffective.
3. The Sifu teaching Wing Chun is not teaching it properly.

Which of these four positions do you agree with?
:asian:

 

[Steve]

Mate I'm not being defensive defensive at all and I'm not thinking at all that you are bashing my system. The post that wingchun100 posted was off topic but deserving of a reply, which I did. You responded with a one liner to which I asked you to clarify. You referred me back to the beginning of the thread so I would get the gist of your response. I did. I read every one of your posts on a different issue and didn't find any that really fitted with the post I was responding to. So I still don't know why you disagree.

But that aside, now you say defending yourself is only a small part of self defence. I disagree. Defending yourself, as in taking responsibility for your own safety, begins the moment you step outside your door and continues until you are home again. Self defence is a small but important part of defending yourself. You could even argue that you are defending yourself with the precautions taken when you are at home, so definition is important.


So it seems that the legal definition of 'self defence' is the actual protection of the person, not the additional steps that can be taken to try to avoid a physical confrontation.

Now let's look at what constitutes a martial art according to the dictionary.




Mmm! They all seem to include self defence in the definition of Martial Art.

So I say that teaching a martial art is teaching self defence. wingchun100's Sifu teaches self defence separate to Wing Chun. To me that opens a number of possibilities ...
1. Wing Chun is not a martial art.
2. Wing Chun is a martial art but is ineffective.
3. The Sifu teaching Wing Chun is not teaching it properly.

Which of these four positions do you agree with?
:asian:

I think we might have to agree to disagree, because this is likely to hijack the thread. And also because i believe that communication skills are part of self defense. Situational awareness is part of self defense, too, as are common sense, fighting ability and many other things. If being able to defend oneself is the only measure, than MMA has to be among the best styles for it. But many would argue otherwise.

One could spend a lifetime studying any of these things.

Regarding your four choices, I think I'll take the fourth one, which I think you forgot to write. Which is that he is teaching wing chun, which, depending on the student may have some application for self defense.

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[K-man]

I think we might have to agree to disagree, because this is likely to hijack the thread. And also because i believe that communication skills are part of self defense. Situational awareness is part of self defense, too, as are common sense, fighting ability and many other things. If being able to defend oneself is the only measure, than MMA has to be among the best styles for it. But many would argue otherwise.

One could spend a lifetime studying any of these things.

Regarding your four choices, I think I'll take the fourth one, which I think you forgot to write. Which is that he is teaching wing chun, which, depending on the student may have some application for self defense.

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Mmm! That was number five. Number one was that teaching a martial art is teaching self defence, my position. The other three applied to the situation that wingchun100 finds himself in. Interesting to see your perspective though. Thank you for answering the question.
:asian:

 

[Steve]

Mmm! That was number five. Number one was that teaching a martial art is teaching self defence, my position. The other three applied to the situation that wingchun100 finds himself in. Interesting to see your perspective though. Thank you for answering the question.
:asian:

Okay. Number five then.


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[CNida]

Definition of expert (n)
ex·pert
somebody skilled or knowledgeable:somebody with a great deal of knowledge about, or skill, training, or experience in, a particular field or activity

By this definition of the word, one can be an expert in something by simply knowing about it.

In my opinion there is a huge difference between knowledge and application. An expert has the knowledge but a "veteran" or "master" has the knowledge AND the ability to apply it.

Case in point, I might be an expert in self defense simply because I know X, Y, and Z techniques will work, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I can use them or that I am a self defense veteran


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[ballen0351]

Definition of expert (n)
ex·pert
somebody skilled or knowledgeable:somebody with a great deal of knowledge about, or skill, training, or experience in, a particular field or activity

By this definition of the word, one can be an expert in something by simply knowing about it.

In my opinion there is a huge difference between knowledge and application. An expert has the knowledge but a "veteran" or "master" has the knowledge AND the ability to apply it.

Case in point, I might be an expert in self defense simply because I know X, Y, and Z techniques will work, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I can use them or that I am a self defense veteran


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

I guess the point is does it even matter if the expert can do XYZ ? If he can teach you XYZ and you can use it why do you care if he can do it?

 

[CNida]

I guess the point is does it even matter if the expert can do XYZ ? If he can teach you XYZ and you can use it why do you care if he can do it?

Normally? I don't much care if the teacher has any actual experience in the subject matter: when it comes to things like baking or chemistry. I can read in a book that mixing acids and bases is no bueno and that's good enough for me. So no, I don't care if my chemistry teacher has ever actually practiced any chemistry.

But when it comes to self defense? It's much easier to believe in something when I -know- that the person teaching it has verifiable experience in using the techniques they are teaching.

If it was good enough to just study statistics about self defense, then everyone who could read a book could be an "expert".


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

 

[ballen0351]

Normally? I don't much care if the teacher has any actual experience in the subject matter: when it comes to things like baking or chemistry. I can read in a book that mixing acids and bases is no bueno and that's good enough for me. So no, I don't care if my chemistry teacher has ever actually practiced any chemistry.

But when it comes to self defense? It's much easier to believe in something when I -know- that the person teaching it has verifiable experience in using the techniques they are teaching.

If it was good enough to just study statistics about self defense, then everyone who could read a book could be an "expert".


____________________________

"A man who has attained mastery of an art reveals it in his every action." - Anonymous

So how would you know if he's done it or not? Just because he tells you? There are lots of people that lie all the time. Stolen Valor Facebook page posts phony war hero's everyday. Guys out there claiming experience they don't have and teaching classes and other jobs using this fake experiences. Other guys with real true experiences are out there that you would never know about they don't talk about it. I was training with a guy in Judo for like 6 months I had no idea he was a legit Silver star wearing purple heart owning special forces guy a real war hero. I only found out because I googled these supplements he was using and I found out he was a spokesman for them. Then all these stories about him and the things he did were popping up. He was the real deal and never once mentioned it. When I asked him he just said yeah but its no big deal and changed the topic. I don't think he liked talking about it so I dropped it.