Can You Be An Expert?

[Steve]

The old "I've done the research" line.

Which has become pretty common since.

so you probably could be an academic expert. But I think you would have to be a real one. Not read the equivalent of a self help book, or watch a heap of world star.

I've read several books on distilling liquor, and I could probably talk a good game. But if I tried to teach you how to do it, I think the odds are high that I'd end up killing us both.

 

[TheDojang]

In the Sport and TMA...Again thread, (man that thread gets a lot of attention ) Chris and Steve were having an interesting debate and something that was said, caught my eye.

Steve said:



To which Chris replied:



So, what does everyone think? Can you become an expert or authority on SD, with no real world experience? Sure, of course, one of the most effective tools of SD is avoidance. Is there something you can potentially do to avoid a situation? If you can avoid something altogether, you're better off. Of course, in the perfect world, sometimes things aren't that easy, so physical skills are necessary. But having experience in hands on skill, I feel is important. Would you want to go in for surgery and know that you will be the first patient that this new doctor has ever worked on? How about the pilot flying the plane you're on? I'd like to know that my flight isn't this guys first solo flight. LOL.

I'd like to think that if we took 2 people, 1 with no experience at all, and then someone like Rory Miller, that it should be a no brainer.

This is a great question. I have been training for 30 years. I am by no means an expert or master. While I have trained multiple styles, I find there is always something for me to learn. I believe the term expert or master is overly used. Or used in the wrong context.

I dont think anyone ever becomes the true definition of an expert. Expert refers to someone who has acquired ALL knowledge needed in a subject with no real room for further growth. Now, one can gain much knowledge and have more knowledge than the average every day John Q Smith.

But in reality, how many people out there are able to devote 1000's of hours to do nothing but train. I dont know hardly anyone that has that kind of time. Not even myself.

I believe that one should have a good basic grasp of what self defense is, not what Hollywood puts it out to be. But to be an 'expert', does anyone truly have to time to try to aquire such a 'title', if it truly even exists.

What works for one, may not work for another.

Do I think one has to be put into ALL street situations to understand the concept of self defense. No. Who in the world willingly goes out looking for trouble. I know I sure don't.

Now, do I feel I have a decent grasp on self defense and could protect myself and others if the need arises. I would like to think so. But Noone knows that for 100% sure until and when if ever the situation arises.

So can one be very knowledgeable in the area of protecting themselves without being in a 100 bar fights, yes I think so. But as for me, even when I have been training for 50 years, I will never consider myself an 'expert'. Not saying others can't or shouldn't. But personally, no. I dont think it is possible. Too many variables and factors to take in.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Now, do I feel I have a decent grasp on self defense and could protect myself and others if the need arises. I would like to think so. But Noone knows that for 100% sure until and when if ever the situation arises.

Marines train to "hit the beach" under withering fire. Before the reality, some have grave doubts that the training they've had will overcome their fear and that they may chicken out (As Gen. Patton once gave voice to in a speech.) Others are very confident they will act bravely like those in the old war movies. I think both these groups will react similarly. Each group will have their share of heroes, and those who freeze up. Because, as you say, there's no way to really know until it happens.

Training in the dojo (or tournaments) is at best an imitation of the "real" thing. Even though the training and contact may be robust, a safety net is still there. Few schools use heavy duty body and head gear so many students don't know what a real punch, delivered with malice, feels like when hit, or even when blocking. They will be in for a rude surprise.

Not saying students need to beat each other up every class, but a portion of their monthly training should be spent on dealing with powerful attacks and resistant defenses. And a mental attitude should be fostered to help prepare one for actual dangerous combat. Training is not 100% foolproof. Maybe 75%. The key is to be willing to accept that 25% risk factor and "hit the beach."

I will never consider myself an 'expert'.

If you've reached the equivalent of a good 3rd-4th degree black belt, (7-12 years regular training) consider yourself an "expert." That term is very subjective, but if you're in the top 5% of all those currently in MA (which I expect a 3rd degree would be) I would apply the term to you. Now, master is another story...

At this "expert" level, there are certain expectations others have of you, and most importantly, that you have of yourself. Wanting to live up to these expectations provides motivation to strive to further improve.

Being an expert is by no means the end of the road. Like a first degree black should be considered the start of a new journey, being an "expert" is just the start of another leg of that long, never ending journey. So, go ahead and think of yourself as an expert if you have excellent skills and understanding in your art - don't be too modest. But also, don't overrate yourself that an expert has reached the apex of the art.

 

[TheDojang]

Marines train to "hit the beach" under withering fire. Before the reality, some have grave doubts that the training they've had will overcome their fear and that they may chicken out (As Gen. Patton once gave voice to in a speech.) Others are very confident they will act bravely like those in the old war movies. I think both these groups will react similarly. Each group will have their share of heroes, and those who freeze up. Because, as you say, there's no way to really know until it happens.

Training in the dojo (or tournaments) is at best an imitation of the "real" thing. Even though the training and contact may be robust, a safety net is still there. Few schools use heavy duty body and head gear so many students don't know what a real punch, delivered with malice, feels like when hit, or even when blocking. They will be in for a rude surprise.

Not saying students need to beat each other up every class, but a portion of their monthly training should be spent on dealing with powerful attacks and resistant defenses. And a mental attitude should be fostered to help prepare one for actual dangerous combat. Training is not 100% foolproof. Maybe 75%. The key is to be willing to accept that 25% risk factor and "hit the beach."


If you've reached the equivalent of a good 3rd-4th degree black belt, (7-12 years regular training) consider yourself an "expert." That term is very subjective, but if you're in the top 5% of all those currently in MA (which I expect a 3rd degree would be) I would apply the term to you. Now, master is another story...

At this "expert" level, there are certain expectations others have of you, and most importantly, that you have of yourself. Wanting to live up to these expectations provides motivation to strive to further improve.

Being an expert is by no means the end of the road. Like a first degree black should be considered the start of a new journey, being an "expert" is just the start of another leg of that long, never ending journey. So, go ahead and think of yourself as an expert if you have excellent skills and understanding in your art - don't be too modest. But also, don't overrate yourself that an expert has reached the apex of the art.

I consider myself to be good at what I do. With my self defense training, we do incorporate more 'full force' applications. Not so much on the countering, but on the attack itself. For I am a firm believer that a martial artist, or one training in self defense must be put in the situation of the attack being applied in real time. To at least to some degree, helping the mind to 'cope' with the stress and anxiety of the street style attack. While nothing is foolproof, I know for myself at least, this has helped me tremendously in feeling confident in my ability to thwart most attacks on the street.

To give a basic history of myself. Definitely not bragging, just a little history on where I come from. I hold 4 Black Belts in TKD. A 1st Degree in American Kenpo. I have also studied some in Kickboxing, Boxing, Mauy Thai, Hapkido, Jujitsu and Combat Jujitsu. Though my training in the last several styles mentioned was more 'backyard' training. Definitely not enough to have the knowledge of teaching those particular styles to others. I started my training in 1995. Spent most of my career in TKD, while now I focus 90% on Kenpo and self defense. And I incorporate all that I have learned and continue to learn to my students.

I used to compete, but stopped years ago. It became too 'Hollywood' for my liking. I'm 45 now and strictly train so that I can defend myself and others if the need ever arises.

 

[Tez3]

Marines train to "hit the beach" under withering fire. Before the reality, some have grave doubts that the training they've had will overcome their fear and that they may chicken out (As Gen. Patton once gave voice to in a speech.) Others are very confident they will act bravely like those in the old war movies. I think both these groups will react similarly. Each group will have their share of heroes, and those who freeze up. Because, as you say, there's no way to really know until it happens.

Training in the dojo (or tournaments) is at best an imitation of the "real" thing. Even though the training and contact may be robust, a safety net is still there. Few schools use heavy duty body and head gear so many students don't know what a real punch, delivered with malice, feels like when hit, or even when blocking. They will be in for a rude surprise.

Not saying students need to beat each other up every class, but a portion of their monthly training should be spent on dealing with powerful attacks and resistant defenses. And a mental attitude should be fostered to help prepare one for actual dangerous combat. Training is not 100% foolproof. Maybe 75%. The key is to be willing to accept that 25% risk factor and "hit the beach."


If you've reached the equivalent of a good 3rd-4th degree black belt, (7-12 years regular training) consider yourself an "expert." That term is very subjective, but if you're in the top 5% of all those currently in MA (which I expect a 3rd degree would be) I would apply the term to you. Now, master is another story...

At this "expert" level, there are certain expectations others have of you, and most importantly, that you have of yourself. Wanting to live up to these expectations provides motivation to strive to further improve.

Being an expert is by no means the end of the road. Like a first degree black should be considered the start of a new journey, being an "expert" is just the start of another leg of that long, never ending journey. So, go ahead and think of yourself as an expert if you have excellent skills and understanding in your art - don't be too modest. But also, don't overrate yourself that an expert has reached the apex of the art.

Perhaps your Marines train for that but ours train as spec forces working on ops behind enemy lines etc. Different mindset.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Christ this necroed hard.

Marines train to "hit the beach" under withering fire

You hope they do.

Also just on that combat fatige was know and treated as a normal casulty in WW2, at least for the U.K/commonwealth in europe. If you froze up in line with combat fatigue you would just be stretchered back.

Compeltely irrelivent but its one of the myths i see a bit, as far as i know the case the commonwealth treated fatgiue casulties fairly and not as "cowardice" etc. thats where the tour system dervied wa scylying people out to prevent them being worn up.


I will just input and say you will never have technical and physical exelence at the same time, your body will fail you (discounting if you go senile or something in your old age obviously) so you have limited actual application of a lot of the knowledge you would gather in your 50's-60's yet you might technically and tactically keep getting better.

In other clearer words, your body will fail you and limit what you can do and your physical prime isnt nessasirly your understanding of its prime. You could understand the tactical application of a tornado kick at say 70, does that mean you can do it? More than likely not. whrre as you could do the actual kick in your 20's but not have a use for it.


Expert is more indactive of, has spent a long time doing it, not that they are nessisarily good at it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Expert refers to someone who has acquired ALL knowledge needed in a subject with no real room for further growth.

I don't think this is the common or dictionary definition of "expert". Someone who is an expert auto mechanic still doesn't know everything there is to know about repairing cars.

 

[drop bear]

I've read several books on distilling liquor, and I could probably talk a good game. But if I tried to teach you how to do it, I think the odds are high that I'd end up killing us both.

 

[drop bear]

Christ this necroed hard.



You hope they do.

Also just on that combat fatige was know and treated as a normal casulty in WW2, at least for the U.K/commonwealth in europe. If you froze up in line with combat fatigue you would just be stretchered back.

Compeltely irrelivent but its one of the myths i see a bit, as far as i know the case the commonwealth treated fatgiue casulties fairly and not as "cowardice" etc. thats where the tour system dervied wa scylying people out to prevent them being worn up.


I will just input and say you will never have technical and physical exelence at the same time, your body will fail you (discounting if you go senile or something in your old age obviously) so you have limited actual application of a lot of the knowledge you would gather in your 50's-60's yet you might technically and tactically keep getting better.

In other clearer words, your body will fail you and limit what you can do and your physical prime isnt nessasirly your understanding of its prime. You could understand the tactical application of a tornado kick at say 70, does that mean you can do it? More than likely not. whrre as you could do the actual kick in your 20's but not have a use for it.


Expert is more indactive of, has spent a long time doing it, not that they are nessisarily good at it.

You can be ten years at an activity and be in your physical prime though.

 

[John dye]

In the Sport and TMA...Again thread, (man that thread gets a lot of attention ) Chris and Steve were having an interesting debate and something that was said, caught my eye.

Steve said:



To which Chris replied:



So, what does everyone think? Can you become an expert or authority on SD, with no real world experience? Sure, of course, one of the most effective tools of SD is avoidance. Is there something you can potentially do to avoid a situation? If you can avoid something altogether, you're better off. Of course, in the perfect world, sometimes things aren't that easy, so physical skills are necessary. But having experience in hands on skill, I feel is important. Would you want to go in for surgery and know that you will be the first patient that this new doctor has ever worked on? How about the pilot flying the plane you're on? I'd like to know that my flight isn't this guys first solo flight. LOL.

I'd like to think that if we took 2 people, 1 with no experience at all, and then someone like Rory Miller, that it should be a no brainer.

I think that depends on the level knowing something can help if all you learned was poking the eye kocking groin or some moves your exraordinary talented and Athletic. Can learn from watching or are just strong yes .

 

[Steve]

I don't think this is the common or dictionary definition of "expert". Someone who is an expert auto mechanic still doesn't know everything there is to know about repairing cars.

Expertise is a spectrum. A journeyman has expertise in that skillset, and compared to a novice, they are experts. But there are experts among experts, and then there are people who are elite, to whom the experts go for help. You see this in every skill set, including self defense. The key distinction is that in very other discipline, one can't become even a journeyman without experience because experience leads directly to expertise.

The disconnect is that self defense is an intellectual skillset, not a practical one. It's not at all learning to do something at all. It's all about knowing things, knowing about things, collecting tidbits of information and being able to speak to the topic with authority. Like learning about Japanese art or getting a degree in literature. You may never pick up a paint brush, but you can learn a lot about it. There are a lot of people who can speak at length about the western influence on Japanese art in the Meiji period. The issue remains that, while this person may be an excellent art historian, he or she would be a terrible painting instructor.

 

[Buka]

I think the Martial Arts world cornered the market in "Experts" a long, long time ago.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't think this is the common or dictionary definition of "expert". Someone who is an expert auto mechanic still doesn't know everything there is to know about repairing cars.

Expert mean someone who is good in a certain skill. If anybody on earth who wants to learn that skill, he should go to that teacher.

When someone told his students, "After you have learned A and B from me, you can leave and find yourself another teacher." This teacher is specialized in A and B and he is honest to his students.

My Chinese wrestling teacher was specialized in "leg twisting". When he was 16, he used that technique to defeat a famous Chinese wrestling master. One day my teacher wanted to teach me a sword form, I told him that I was not interested in his sword form, but I was interested in his "leg twisting".

IMO, you may want to learn general MA knowledge from a teacher, but you truly want to learn the specialty from that teacher.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

one of the most effective tools of SD is avoidance. Is there something you can potentially do to avoid a situation?

It's wrong to start a fight without a good reason. It's also wrong to avoid a fight when it's necessary.

A: They are beating up your wife, are you going to do something?
B: She is not my wife. I don't know her.

B is safe, but his wife is not.