I think the point is...a) the main difference between RVC and a good many others, is the hands-on time spent. I've talked about this before, and for me, I feel that its important. You need to spend alot of time, training under someone. No, I dont consider once or twice a year enough, nor do I feel that just because the teacher has lots of experience and supposedly can tell if the person is qualified for said rank, is enough to rank someone. Sorry, ya gotta put in the time WITH A TEACHER! B) Those that are 6th, 7th etc, are probably not only limited in quantity, but again, they spent time with the man.
can someone verrify this
- Thread starter tshadowchaser
- Start date
Hello MJS,
Several people that I've talked to and who saw the certificate said it's the authentic thing, from Professor Remy Presas. One of my contacts has the very same certificate and dating back to the late 1970s'. GM Van Clief was an action movie performer as well as a trained martial artist. He trained under a number of prominent American Teachers.
He met and trained with Professor Presas in the Philippines. GM Van Clief was is the real deal in the arts and you needn't worry about his credibility.
BTW, did you ever call or go over to Ny and train with GM Tom Bolden? I know a number
of people have not wanted to endorse GM Bolden, but after seeing his "World of Modern
Arnis" movie, I'm surprised that more people in your general area haven't gotten over to Poughkeepsie to train with him.
Morgan
Hello MJS,
Your points about training time are quite good and generally true. Be careful when speaking of people training once a twice a year with an instructor because a good number of Modern Arnis people got their ranks and certificates from Professor via the
seminar method, training with him once or twice a year.
I will also point out that a number of Masters and Grand Masters believe that they can and should allow for cross-ranking within a art for a "student' who is very well qualified in another art. As the leaders/head instructors/ chief instructors of a particular art that is their privilege/right to do. Like it or not, disagree or not, as the head of a system these kinds of decisions are strictly their decisions to make.
Morgan
Hi Morgan,
Question. Going on what you said, those people that you mention...was the Prof the only person they were training with, or did they have another teacher to train with, when they weren't attending seminars? Again, theres a huge difference between training with someone a time or two a year, training with someone a time or two a year in addition to having a teacher they train with on a regular basis, and following someone around on their seminar tour, etc.
And again, as I said, people are free to do as they wish. In the end, its those people that'll have to answer the questions, or not. But, nobody can dispute the fact that it devalues the art, when people play games. Personally speaking, I would NEVER accept an honorary award. I want to earn it myself, thru hard work! And thats how I've got all my rankings, thru hard work. No short cuts. Why would someone, and we all know how honest everyone is...LMFAO...accept a rank, and put that in their martial arts bio. Imagine someone walking into a dojo, seeing a 7th dan Arnis cert. They're going to think, unless the inst. of that school is honest, that the teacher is really ranked at 7th, when in fact, they've probably had a handful of Modern Arnis classes.
I busted out laughing when I saw this! I am amazed at just how many people are on this website.
Hi MJS,
I simply took you at your word. There are and have been a number of people on this forum who claim the late Professor as their MODERN ARNIS TEACHER. How else am I or anyone else suppose to read that kind of statement? You at least claim to have a person other than Professor as your Modern Arnis teacher, although you did train under Professor as well. BTW, if you have a Modern Arnis rank certificate from Professor, is your full-time (for the lack of a better term) teacher listed on it and/or did he sign your IMAF certificate?
Quite to the contrary, the awarding of a certificate to someone by the system Grand Master does not necessarily devalue the art/system. Does anyone KNOW WHY Professor Presas awarded (in this particular case) GM Van Clief the 7th degree certificate? There are numerous reasons for that award and given that it done so long ago and in the Philippines it might be highly informative to have the answer(s) to the question that I posed.
I can't dispute a personal conviction and won't try! OTOH, what if a very good friend
wanted to recognize you and your overall martial arts skills, would you turn that award down? Why? You most certinly have earned some ranks and honors prior to that award so what is wrong with showing respect for a friend and his art as well, particularly if he
trained you for hours on end over a number of weeks to months before the offer was made. As one of my contacts related to me, Professor Presass was a technical advisor
to a number of film projects in the Philippines before 1975. It is highly likely that GM Van Clief had to work very hard learning Arnis so that he could perform credibily in a movie role. It was very likely not 'a stroll in the park' as he prepared for these roles.
There is also the matter of his being stationed in the Philippines as a US Marine, prior to beging his acting career. Could he have already been involved in arnis training under Professor or some other teacher during his Marine years? I don't have that answer, do you?
Do you know if GM Van Clief, actively claimed his Modern Arnis ranking, during his years as a martial arts teacher? Did he portray himself as one of Professor's highest ranking people during his active martial arts career? If so, when, where and how? I'm asking because it seems to me that there is more than just a little hint of anger and doubt towards Mr. Van Clief, in your posts.
Do we really FACTUALLY KNOW that GM Van Clief had only a handful of Arnis lessons? Are you saying that Professor Presas was so careless and uncaring with regard to the art that he created and named that he would give out rank certificates, willy-nilly? Hmmmm... then what does that say abouit your IMAF ranks given in the mid to late 1990's? Your point about "devaluation" could be prophetic and accurate.
Morgan
Hmm....did I say otherwise or is that they way YOU are reading my posts? Ahh..he beauty of the 'net. The odds of misunderstandings, due to having to read, vs. actually hearing whats said, are high.
I attneded a handful of seminars with GM Presas, but I do not claim to be a personal student of his. Yes, I have other Arnis teachers. Due to personal reasons on his part, one of them has stepped down from active teaching at the time. However, I still maintain a close friendship with him. My other teacher, MoTT Brian Zawilinski, I train with on a regular basis.
I have not tested at any time, under GM Presas. His name and and picture are on the IMAF, Inc diplomas, however, my teachers sigs. are on my diplomas.
OTOH, does anyone know if the cert. is legit? Are we sure the sig. of GM Presas thats on that dip. is really his? Do we know a list of all of the people that GM Presas gave a 6th or 7th dan to? What devalues the art, is if someone is given a cert. stating a specific rank, and if said person uses that for ill purposes.
Why should I accept an award in an art that I didn't train in? LOL! That would be like me getting a dip. stating that I'm a 3rd dan in TKD. I dont train in TKD...never have, probably never will, but if I did, I'd want to earn it, not have it handed to me. If someone chooses to take the easy route, thats on them. All of my ranks, both in Kenpo and Arnis, were earned, with hard work, not handed to me.
That said, your assumption of what I've 'earned' is incorrect sir. As for the rest of your post...proof please. Umm..welll duh, if I had the answers, we wouldnt be having this chat now, would we?
IIRC, a number of pages back, I posted some things to consider, one of them being where everyone in question lived, for how long, etc. I assume you read all that or did this thread just 'catch' your eye and seeing that you havent posted here in a while, felt the need to comment? Again, the beauty of not being able to really hear what someone is saying, vs. having to write it. The above is moot, as a) I have no idea and b) isn't that what we're all talking about here? Of course, if you can add any input to what you just asked me, feel free to post it.
As I said, but you may've missed, in the end, its the person making the claims, that'll have to backup and answer...or not...the questions that're posed to them. Umm...again, isnt that the topic of this thread? To hopefully find out some answers to the question that was originally asked? Interesting how you seem to be twisting my words. As for the IMAF ranks that you mention....you're not ax grinding here, are ya?
In closing I'll say this. If you're here to actually provide something useful, then feel free to post. But if you're here to troll, well, I'd hate to see ya get the boot from here.
Hmm....did I say otherwise or is that they way YOU are reading my posts? Ahh..he beauty of the 'net. The odds of misunderstandings, due to having to read, vs. actually hearing whats said, are high.
I attneded a handful of seminars with GM Presas, but I do not claim to be a personal student of his. Yes, I have other Arnis teachers. Due to personal reasons on his part, one of them has stepped down from active teaching at the time. However, I still maintain a close friendship with him. My other teacher, MoTT Brian Zawilinski, I train with on a regular basis.
I have not tested at any time, under GM Presas. His name and and picture are on the IMAF, Inc diplomas, however, my teachers sigs. are on my diplomas.
OTOH, does anyone know if the cert. is legit? Are we sure the sig. of GM Presas thats on that dip. is really his? Do we know a list of all of the people that GM Presas gave a 6th or 7th dan to? What devalues the art, is if someone is given a cert. stating a specific rank, and if said person uses that for ill purposes.
Why should I accept an award in an art that I didn't train in? LOL! That would be like me getting a dip. stating that I'm a 3rd dan in TKD. I dont train in TKD...never have, probably never will, but if I did, I'd want to earn it, not have it handed to me. If someone chooses to take the easy route, thats on them. All of my ranks, both in Kenpo and Arnis, were earned, with hard work, not handed to me.
Umm..welll duh, if I had the answers, we wouldnt be having this chat now, would we?
Again, the beauty of not being able to really hear what someone is saying, vs. having to write it. The above is moot, as a) I have no idea and b) isn't that what we're all talking about here? Of course, if you can add any input to what you just asked me, feel free to post it.
Umm...again, isnt that the topic of this thread? To hopefully find out some answers to the question that was originally asked? Interesting how you seem to be twisting my words. As for the IMAF ranks that you mention....you're not ax grinding here, are ya?
In closing I'll say this. If you're here to actually provide something useful, then feel free to post. But if you're here to troll, well, I'd hate to see ya get the boot from here.
Difference of opinions happen. I'm reading your comments and perhaps I'm seeing more in them than you thought that you were putting there. OK, that happens. I believe that I've made some useful comments and observations, plus I believe that I followed
some of your comments and asked questions about why you made them. Let's just
agree to disagree on this thread.
The certificate awarded to GM Van Clief is legitimate in the opinion of serveral people that I talked with. One of them has 3 of the very same certificates from the late Professor. The signature is Professor's in his opinion. In my mind that verifies the authinticity issue.
You opened other themes within the thread, I replied and raised my own questions.
Did you answer the questions that I asked of you in my last post? NO! Are you going
to answer, I doubt it. Am I bothered by that, absolutely not. So we are at an impass. Therefore all we can do is agree to disagree. I'm ok with that outcome.
I deliberately did not comment on any other posts that you posted on another thread.
Not because I was in disagreement with you, but felt that my comments here were enough.
Morgan
Hmm...so you dont post on here in almost a year, you happen to 'stumble' across this thread, stir the pot, and then say we should agree to disagree?
And in the opinion of someone that I've spoken with, its not his sig...in his opinion.
In my mind, that raises some curiosity. You can read right? I believe I did answer all of your questions, asked of me. Funny though...how YOU are turning this thread into something about me, when in fact, its about RVC. If you feel that I havent answered a question about myself, feel free to PM me. Again, this thread is about RVC, not me, though thats how you're trying to twist it.
Umm...ok.
Let's keep to the topic, folks, and it's about this particular certificate, not the qualifications of any member.
Mark Lynn
Master Black Belt
Dean Stockwell trained with the Professor over in the Philippines for the movie "The Pacific Connection"/"The Stick Fighter" . OK the Professor awarded him a Lakan Dalawa when Mr. Stockwell went back to the states after the movie was over.
It took me 7 years to get 1st black under my karate instructor, 8 years for 2nd black. So am I to assume that because he didn't take as long as I did that he isn't a 2nd black? GM Remy worked with him and said you are a Lakan Dalawa. Now if he gave a movie star whom he worked with (with no prior martial arts experience) a 2nd black, it's not hard for me to believe he gave a seasoned martial artist a 7th after training him.
It would be one thing if Mr. Van Cliff was promoting himself as the successor in Modern Arnis, that all of the sudden he comes out of the woodwork and says I'm king because of this certificate I got from Remy back when I was trained secretly in Modern Arnis while filming a movie that nobody has seen.
It is what it is. I do find it real hard to believe with the internet out here today, that someone would post something that is blatantly false (with the qualifications and reputation that Mr. Van Cliff has), what is in it for him? He is well known for his other martial arts not for Modern Arnis. I personally think it is legit, do I think he knows as much about arnis as the other lower ranked students of Modern Arnis No. Should I care?
It took me 7 years to get 1st black under my karate instructor, 8 years for 2nd black. So am I to assume that because he didn't take as long as I did that he isn't a 2nd black? GM Remy worked with him and said you are a Lakan Dalawa. Now if he gave a movie star whom he worked with (with no prior martial arts experience) a 2nd black, it's not hard for me to believe he gave a seasoned martial artist a 7th after training him.
It would be one thing if Mr. Van Cliff was promoting himself as the successor in Modern Arnis, that all of the sudden he comes out of the woodwork and says I'm king because of this certificate I got from Remy back when I was trained secretly in Modern Arnis while filming a movie that nobody has seen.
It is what it is. I do find it real hard to believe with the internet out here today, that someone would post something that is blatantly false (with the qualifications and reputation that Mr. Van Cliff has), what is in it for him? He is well known for his other martial arts not for Modern Arnis. I personally think it is legit, do I think he knows as much about arnis as the other lower ranked students of Modern Arnis No. Should I care?
Happy Easter everyone!
Between Easter and getting ready for my trip to the PI in two days I don't have much time for this thread.
TESTED is the key word in my statement. For the record it's not my claim as much as quoting Remy what he said during my promotion. What Remy said is that it was the highest test in over 17 years.
Between Easter and getting ready for my trip to the PI in two days I don't have much time for this thread.
TESTED is the key word in my statement. For the record it's not my claim as much as quoting Remy what he said during my promotion. What Remy said is that it was the highest test in over 17 years.
Is the diploma real? Not sure. It does look a little off, but to be sure I would need to see the diploma in person. At the end of the day does it really matter? RVC to my knowledge isn't making any claims of leadership in MA. If it's real great! if it's fake then bad on him. The way I look at it is that the belt doesn't make us, we make the belt.
I don't see why everyone bothers arguing with Morgan? For those whom haven't figured it out yet, he is a former banned member Jerome Barber.
Happy Easter!
Happy Easter!
Hi Tim,
The word claim is not negative within itself. And it did accurately depict what was stated from my recollection of Forum content, that it is your claim (which appears to be backed by witnesses) that GM Presas stated that you were the highest ranked black belt who had continuously tested for rank.
OMG, does anyone else on this forum really care about WNY politics that occurred 30 freakin years ago?
In this time, the Soviet Union collapsed, the US has been involved in several military involvements, the Arab world is drastically changing, Bob got married, and the US elected our first African American President.
So again, in view of all of those things above, does this trifling junk really matter?
It don't to me.
Regarding the 'claim':
Regarding the rest, ehh.
Mr. Van Cliff was invited to pop in. If he feels like doing so, he's welcome here. If not, that's his business. I haven't heard anything bad about the guy, Remy's been dead a decade now, long past where anyone can check with him on the matter, and it happened so long ago that most of the people currently in Modern Arnis weren't around at all then to confirm. I don't believe any of the Datus or Motts were in the art at the time, nor any of the Senior Masters, or whatever other titles are out there. Correct me if I'm off here.
As to the WNY politics, I agree with Harold...and I appreciate my getting married being listed with other such World Shaking news.
Regarding the rest, ehh.
Mr. Van Cliff was invited to pop in. If he feels like doing so, he's welcome here. If not, that's his business. I haven't heard anything bad about the guy, Remy's been dead a decade now, long past where anyone can check with him on the matter, and it happened so long ago that most of the people currently in Modern Arnis weren't around at all then to confirm. I don't believe any of the Datus or Motts were in the art at the time, nor any of the Senior Masters, or whatever other titles are out there. Correct me if I'm off here.
As to the WNY politics, I agree with Harold...and I appreciate my getting married being listed with other such World Shaking news.
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Right Bob, again the word "claim" does not carry a negative connotation within itself.
And accurate when used to relate information from a third very distant party such as myself.
It was for all us long standing holdout bachelors. LOL!!!and I appreciate my getting married being listed with other such World Shaking news.
Mark Lynn
Master Black Belt
:rofl:
Could not have said it better myself
Way to keep things in perspective Harold.
Mark
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