I'd say it's also possible you're jumping to conclusions.
can someone verrify this
- Thread starter tshadowchaser
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I'd say it's also possible you're jumping to conclusions.
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I'm not jumping to anything-I'm postulating-that's what saying "it's possible" is, and it is, by definition, no sort of conclusion at all.......
I might have said more, but there are those who know more and have said more already.
I'm not jumping to anything-I'm postulating-that's what saying "it's possible" is, and it is, by definition, without any conclusion at all.......
I might have said more, but there are those who know more and have said more already.
Fine then, it's an assumptive postulation. Or poisoning the well. Either way, there was a conclusion and it's worked into the framework of the statement.
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That's jumping to conclusions. I was speculating, based on prior knowledge, and what I said is really no different than what Brian posted up thread.
Of course, it's also possible that Van Clief sensei studied for a long time with Professor Presas....or that it's completely phony. Both of those have been postulated here, or at least hinted at. I was only offering a third possibility-that the rank was given honrarily, as it had been to others. Conclude whatever you like-I haven't; I don't know a thing.......:lol:
Quote from RVC's Facebook,where the diploma was posted:
"LIVING IN THE PHILIPPINES AND HAVING AN OPPORTUNITY TO STUDY WITH GRANDMASTER REMY PRESAS, THE FOUNDER OF MODERN ARNIS(THE ART OF THE BLADE, HAND/LEGS AND STICK) HE WAS A BRILLIANT TECHNICIAN AND A GOOD MAN THE PHILIPPINES IN THE EARLY 1979'S WAS A HOT BED OF MARTIAL ARTS ACTIVITY..YOU COULD GO TO LUNETA PARK AND SEE THOUSANDS OF MARTIAL ARTISTS DOING THERE THING..WOW"
Looking at his Facebook, he really likes the caps. Don't know why. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say "1979'S" was a typo, and supposed to mean "1970's". Old guys, I would assume, are permitted a typo or two on Facebook.
Here is a list of the films he was in that were filmed in the Philippines that he was in:
Xia Nan Yang (a.k.a. Black Dragon) 1974
Bamboo Trap 1975
Enter Another Dragon 1981
According to Wikipedia, he was a Marine from 1959 to 1965. According to Black Belt Magazine, (Aug 1999, Jan 2003) his stations included Okinawa and the Philippines, ending in Vietnam.
Yes, this predates Modern Arnis's conception. However, Remy Presas from what I've gathered, was training in and teaching Escrima (among other things) before 1966.
Also, he apparently opened a number of Chinese Goju studios in the Philippines. When, I don't know. Regardless, He'd been in and out of the Philippines some time between 15 and 18 years, ostensibly, by time the certificate in question is dated. Yes, this is a short time for a seventh degree. IF that had been when he started training in that period. However, he started training in the '50s.
Could there have been cross-over?
RCV hasn't contacted me yet, likely because he has a life, and I sent this to him mere hours ago. Or he's sleeping. I found this all in a short time after my college classes. Any of you who were asking these questions could have been doing this research.
No offense is intended by any of this. But perhaps I'd suggest that research would be more valuable than speculation. Or even postulation.
Fair enough. I withdraw my previous statements.
Also, the time frame is not unique.
http://www.danandersonkarate.com/promotion.html
This guy got sixth degree black belt From Mr. Presas in 1992, roughly 12 years after he begun training under him.
http://www.danandersonkarate.com/promotion.html
This guy got sixth degree black belt From Mr. Presas in 1992, roughly 12 years after he begun training under him.
And with that, I'm going to bed. Shout out to elder999 for being another night owl. Or, perhaps morning owl is more appropriate...:ultracool
Hmm....
Once again, I'm not disputing that RVC is a distinguished martial artist. Hell, the man had the stones to step into the UFC and fight Royce! Even though he lost, I still tip my hat to the man, again, for having the balls to do that.
I'm not disputing that RVC has Arnis training. I listed the things that I, and my teacher, felt were suspect. I"m sure GM Remy handed out promotions to people quick. Its possible some may've skipped a rank, ie: going from 1st to 3rd without hitting 2nd. Its possible that on his death bed, people took advantage of the man. Its possible the rank is honorary. IMO, I could justify, even though in the ideal circumstances, the person should wait a decent amount of time between rank, promoting a student who trains with you on a very regular basis, follows you around on your seminar tour, etc., a quicker promotion. If someone were to only train with GM Remy once or twice a year, well, no, IMHO, that person is not worthy of a black belt rank, let alone a high rank.
So, in closing, as I said before, in the end, its the person claiming a rank, that'll have to back it up and answer the questions. Let the buyer beware.
Once again, I'm not disputing that RVC is a distinguished martial artist. Hell, the man had the stones to step into the UFC and fight Royce! Even though he lost, I still tip my hat to the man, again, for having the balls to do that.
I'm not disputing that RVC has Arnis training. I listed the things that I, and my teacher, felt were suspect. I"m sure GM Remy handed out promotions to people quick. Its possible some may've skipped a rank, ie: going from 1st to 3rd without hitting 2nd. Its possible that on his death bed, people took advantage of the man. Its possible the rank is honorary. IMO, I could justify, even though in the ideal circumstances, the person should wait a decent amount of time between rank, promoting a student who trains with you on a very regular basis, follows you around on your seminar tour, etc., a quicker promotion. If someone were to only train with GM Remy once or twice a year, well, no, IMHO, that person is not worthy of a black belt rank, let alone a high rank.
So, in closing, as I said before, in the end, its the person claiming a rank, that'll have to back it up and answer the questions. Let the buyer beware.
Hey Brian,
Yes, that is true. If however, this wasn't a case of training with the Prof. for a short time and boom....handed a high rank, as I said, things to consider would be the sig. on the diploma shown. Is that really GM Remys signature? If its a legit rank, actually earned from lots of training, one would have to ask, did RVC travel to the PI to train with Remy? Did he live there for an extended period of time? When GM Remy came to the states, how long did RVC train with him?
One would think that if some of the 'old timer' Arnis guys, were asked about this, they'd have somewhat of an idea.
Either way, as the old saying goes...let the buyer beware.
Absolutely Mike!
You see Mike I actually think it is legit but that he really did not train a lot with The Professor. Elder999 made a point about Dillman and Wally Jay Sr. and throw in Wally Jay Jr. in that they probably have high grade certificates too. (pure speculation but probably accurate) However, that does not mean that they were pioneers or senior students in Modern Arnis. Look at who he was with at the end for that! Lack of involvement shows the true colors to the situation but..... not always. There are other people out there with as high a rank as anybody that simply do not put it out there in the public light. Like I said earlier I know personally several people who were offered very high rank when there skill sets were noted and The Professor was seeking people to bring him in for seminars or to further their training. Fortunately the people I know declined because they felt they did not earn it and did not therefore want it. This is absolutely nothing against The Professor because he was a wonderful man, great martial practitioner and a one of a kind person whom I will always respect and look up to for what he did for me personally and others. However, he did also have a business to run and family to feed.
Which is always the juxtaposition of running a martial system or school as your primary source of income. Compromises will always be made irregardless of who you are! It is certainly a challenging career and also a rewarding one. I know several professional martial practitioners who are in the position who offer a service that is far beyond what someone who does it on the side can do. Yet, it still is a tough business as business usually is!
Looks like he send me a friend request on facebook!
Moderator Note:
Thread moved to Modern Arnis section as being more appropriate and more likely to generate discussion.
Thread moved to Modern Arnis section as being more appropriate and more likely to generate discussion.
Modern Arnis was owned by GM Presas and he had an exclusive right to rank whomever he felt like for whatever reasons he deemed necessary at the time, like it or not.
I agree with Josh that Mr. Ron Van Clief did not make any political or financial gains over years because of this and most teachers don't make a killing living off of strictly teaching Modern Arnis anyway. LOL
I agree with Josh that Mr. Ron Van Clief did not make any political or financial gains over years because of this and most teachers don't make a killing living off of strictly teaching Modern Arnis anyway. LOL
Hmmm, I believe Datu Tim claim was to be the highest ranked US Black Belt who actually consistently tested in front of the Professor if I recall from this forum.
I could be wrong though.
Juat a few comments to what I have read in this thread:
1) GM Remy started to train FMA around 1943.
2) He himself claimed the birth year of Modern Arnis 1957, even thugh it was not called Modern Arnis that time.
3) GM Remy left the Philippines in 1975 and, as far as I know, did not go back until the end of martial law in 1986. And then only for short visits.
4) there is no "place" written in the certificate, where the rank was awarded.
1) GM Remy started to train FMA around 1943.
2) He himself claimed the birth year of Modern Arnis 1957, even thugh it was not called Modern Arnis that time.
3) GM Remy left the Philippines in 1975 and, as far as I know, did not go back until the end of martial law in 1986. And then only for short visits.
4) there is no "place" written in the certificate, where the rank was awarded.
Hi Dieter,
I can see point #3's relevancy but not totally #4 because this would mean that GM Presas never omitted this info, which is kind of hard to prove.
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Hi Carol,
Not quite right. I was ranked 6th back in 1992 (and Tim in 2000) and Rich Parsons teacher was ranked a 7th.
Dan Anderson
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
Josh,
"This guy" had a good number of years of training prior to meeting GM Remy and had hands on training with him as well.
Dan "this guy" Anderson
DragonMind
Yellow Belt
Not quite accurate either but your other point is well taken.
Please share which part is not quite accurate? Otherwise your post is not quite complete.
Sorry DragonMind but without the hearing your insight to the inaccuracy, the members of the forum won't have a clue as to what you are referring.
Respectfully,
Guro Harold
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