can someone verrify this

[tshadowchaser]

found this on face book. Anyone here ever train with him in arnis . Im sure there are some here that might have studied under him at one time in his own style/system.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/...et=a.1085588666930.2015714.1442810908&theater

I met him a few times but never heard of the above before

 

[MJS]

Not seeing anything Sheldon. When I click on the link, it takes me to the FB log on. I log on, and it takes me to my homepage.

 

[Steve]

Not seeing anything Sheldon. When I click on the link, it takes me to the FB log on. I log on, and it takes me to my homepage.

Did that work?

 

[MJS]

Did that work?

Yes it did. Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_van_Clief

Honestly, this is news to me. Never knew a) that he trained Modern Arnis and b) that he was ranked that high. I'll shoot my Arnis teacher an email and ask him if he knows anything about this.

 

[searcher]

I never know that Ron trained in Arnis, but I knew he was ranked very high in Goju-ryu under Peter Urban.

 

[terryl965]

Come on people you know you can get rank ina week if need be....

 

[Carol]

That doesn't make sense. Datu Tim Hartman was Professor Presas' highest ranked American student in Modern Arnis when the Professor passed away in 2001. He might well be a tremendous martial artist but A 7th degree by 1977 doesn't seem right.

 

[MJS]

Heard back from my teacher. Unless I get his ok to post everything he said, I wont, however, I'll just say this much.....what we're seeing here is in a nutshell, highly suspect.

Moral of the story...just because someone is wearing a high rank with a bunch of fancy stripes, just because someone has a ton of pictures hanging in their dojo, of people they've 'trained' with, just because someone has a cert. 'supposedly' signed by a GM, doesnt mean that its legit. There is alot of BS out there, and IMO, this is a fine example of some of it.

 

[poollshark]

I may be a noob but I think I've got pretty good math skills. I find it difficult to believe that cert is legit, that would make him a 7th @ 34 years old?? Also at wiki I found this:

" In 1966 Presas began developing his own system which he called "Modern Arnis" by identifying the basic concepts of the numerous systems he had learned and merging them."

So if Ron started training in 66' that would mean a 7th in 11 years??

Doubtful.

 

[tshadowchaser]

If youread his bio http://www.ronvanclief.com/chinesegoju.html it says notting about him studying ModernArnis when he started Chinesse Gojo so if that is true then he earned his 7th in just a couple of years. wow
not saying he did not but I do know he did not say anything in 72 about being a student of MordernArnis when my instructor and he where talking about things

 

[Josh Oakley]

Heard back from my teacher. Unless I get his ok to post everything he said, I wont, however, I'll just say this much.....what we're seeing here is in a nutshell, highly suspect.

Moral of the story...just because someone is wearing a high rank with a bunch of fancy stripes, just because someone has a ton of pictures hanging in their dojo, of people they've 'trained' with, just because someone has a cert. 'supposedly' signed by a GM, doesnt mean that its legit. There is alot of BS out there, and IMO, this is a fine example of some of it.

Possibly. Then again, Ron Van Clief has a pretty established career. Maybe he did indeed certify with Remy Presas as a 7th degree black belt. Or maybe it was a "political" ranking. Doesn't really matter to me. The guy was a pioneer for black martial artists, and he's demonstrated his knowledge with action.

I've never agreed with belts. Unless it's for a martial art that does competition, the whole belt system is not really necessary. I'd argue that it's been in many ways a detriment to the martial arts as a whole.

 

[MJS]

Possibly. Then again, Ron Van Clief has a pretty established career. Maybe he did indeed certify with Remy Presas as a 7th degree black belt. Or maybe it was a "political" ranking. Doesn't really matter to me. The guy was a pioneer for black martial artists, and he's demonstrated his knowledge with action.

I've never agreed with belts. Unless it's for a martial art that does competition, the whole belt system is not really necessary. I'd argue that it's been in many ways a detriment to the martial arts as a whole.

Oh, I'm not disputing that he has an established career. Some things that I'd question would be: how many people GM Presas promoted to that degree, the location that both GM Presas and RVC lived, as well as the sig. on the diploma, and the time frame to reach that level.

Personally, I do agree with you on the subject of the belts. IMHO, its the skill that impresses me, not the rank of the person. Some people think that if they flash high rank, fancy diplomas, etc, that it'll make people ohh and ahh. Maybe some, but not me.

There will always be people out there that'll try to pull one over on unsuspecting people. Fortunately, there are people out there that we can go to, to help seperate the fact from the fiction and possibly shed light on matters such as this.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Has anyone tried to contact Ron Van Clief? There must be a reason he doesn't post this on his wibsite.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would try and contact Ron Van Clief and find out his story.

Personally I know of several people that were offered rank by Remy Presas early on when he was in the states. (high rank mind you) You have to understand that he was new and on the seminar tour and trying to build Modern Arnis up here much like he did in the Philippines. So it would not surprise me if that is what happened. The Professor also offered rank to other people later on in his career. In regards to Ron VanClief though if he was not hanging around other Modern Arnis people and going to seminars, camps, hosting them etc. you can imagine how much involvement he had. That does not mean though that he was not ranked just that it would appear to me that Modern Arnis was not a primary art in his training.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

There are also people out there with as high a rank that only a few people know of. So bottom line is that there are people out there!

 

[MJS]

I would try and contact Ron Van Clief and find out his story.

Personally I know of several people that were offered rank by Remy Presas early on when he was in the states. (high rank mind you) You have to understand that he was new and on the seminar tour and trying to build Modern Arnis up here much like he did in the Philippines. So it would not surprise me if that is what happened. The Professor also offered rank to other people later on in his career. In regards to Ron VanClief though if he was not hanging around other Modern Arnis people and going to seminars, camps, hosting them etc. you can imagine how much involvement he had. That does not mean though that he was not ranked just that it would appear to me that Modern Arnis was not a primary art in his training.

There are also people out there with as high a rank that only a few people know of. So bottom line is that there are people out there!

Hey Brian,

Yes, that is true. If however, this wasn't a case of training with the Prof. for a short time and boom....handed a high rank, as I said, things to consider would be the sig. on the diploma shown. Is that really GM Remys signature? If its a legit rank, actually earned from lots of training, one would have to ask, did RVC travel to the PI to train with Remy? Did he live there for an extended period of time? When GM Remy came to the states, how long did RVC train with him?

One would think that if some of the 'old timer' Arnis guys, were asked about this, they'd have somewhat of an idea.

Either way, as the old saying goes...let the buyer beware.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Frankly I'm not interested in this enough to follow it up. In most systems I've seen, and this includes Arnis, high belt ranks are more political than anything else, and being as he's not using it to promote himself, there's no issue of fraud. If there WERE a question of fraud, I would not even touch it, as that's not what this site is about. And I like it that way.

Anyone else want to ask him? Here's the contact info I can find:

6700 SAPPHIRE VILLAGE CONDOS
UNIT 157 DOMINICA BLDG.
ST. THOMAS, USVI 00802

Me, I'm out of this. This is thread is starting to sound like another website out there. If you don't know which one I'm talking about, you're better off.

 

[MJS]

Frankly I'm not interested in this enough to follow it up. In most systems I've seen, and this includes Arnis, high belt ranks are more political than anything else, and being as he's not using it to promote himself, there's no issue of fraud. If there WERE a question of fraud, I would not even touch it, as that's not what this site is about. And I like it that way.

Anyone else want to ask him? Here's the contact info I can find:

6700 SAPPHIRE VILLAGE CONDOS
UNIT 157 DOMINICA BLDG.
ST. THOMAS, USVI 00802

Me, I'm out of this. This is thread is starting to sound like another website out there. If you don't know which one I'm talking about, you're better off.

But isn't someone who makes a claim of something that turns out to be false, fraudulent?

http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+fraud&qpvt=definition+of+fraud&FORM=DTPDIA

And you're right...high ranks are political...very political. And this is why many times, I question things such as this. Its sad, IMHO, that people try to BS others, instead of putting in hard work, and actually having to **GASP*** earn the rank. In the end, its those people who choose to do less than moral things, that'll have to answer the questions, not me.

If RVC wants to claim 15th dan in Arnis, he can knock his socks off. My teacher earned his rank, I earned mine, and thats all that matters to me.

 

[Josh Oakley]

Actually, rereading his bio on his website shows he does indeed publicaly claim to have a black belt in Arnis de Mano.

So for the record I don't think there is fraud happening here. All I'm seeing is speculation. And nobody has tried to contact him.

Ok, I'm back in. I'm sending him a message via facebook to ask him about it, and to invite him here to comment on it.

Also for the record, I have no intention of fraud-busting, particularly since I don't believe he's a fraud

 

[elder999]

I'd just say that it's possible that George Dillman, Wally Jay and Jerry Beasely have similar certificates from the 70's or 80's.