Can it be an Art without Kata?

[Marginal]

Art has multiple meanings. The term "Martial Art" wasn't meant to imply that kata = dance. Or to justify useless moves under the category "things that look cool".

Art: skilled workmanship, execution, or agency, as distinguished from nature.
Or: science, learning, or scholarship

The use of the word Art should not be used to justify useless actions (which a kata is if you view it as just something pretty to do), or actions done purely for aesthetic reasons.

 

[K-man]

Art has multiple meanings. The term "Martial Art" wasn't meant to imply that kata = dance. Or to justify useless moves under the category "things that look cool".

Art: skilled workmanship, execution, or agency, as distinguished from nature.
Or: science, learning, or scholarship

The use of the word Art should not be used to justify useless actions (which a kata is if you view it as just something pretty to do), or actions done purely for aesthetic reasons.

I think the discussion is more that any of the fighting forms, honed and trained can be regarded as an 'art'. The reference to kata adds a dimension not seen in boxing, aikido (except with weapons), judo, wrestling, Mui Thai etc. Studying kata, as opposed to 'dancing' or performing 'useless moves' or 'useless actions', adds enormously to the art and is truly learning and scholarship. What I thought about kata 20 years ago is so diametrically opposed to what I know now, that I don't understand how I could have been so blind. If your opinion of kata is really what you have posted, I think that you have a great deal to look forward to in your MA future. :asian:

 

[Marginal]

I think the discussion is more that any of the fighting forms, honed and trained can be regarded as an 'art'. The reference to kata adds a dimension not seen in boxing, aikido (except with weapons), judo, wrestling, Mui Thai etc. Studying kata, as opposed to 'dancing' or performing 'useless moves' or 'useless actions', adds enormously to the art and is truly learning and scholarship. What I thought about kata 20 years ago is so diametrically opposed to what I know now, that I don't understand how I could have been so blind. If your opinion of kata is really what you have posted, I think that you have a great deal to look forward to in your MA future. :asian:

I said kata with no purpose other than aesthetics is pointless. You just said the same thing. (Unless you think kata are pointless and only done for the sake of pretty after 20 years of study...)

 

[Joab]

One year plus into Krav Maga, looking back on my years in EPAK, I find myself missing the katas very much. I loved their grace and style. By contrast, Krav is all about practicality; there is no kata. I can tell that many of the movements and technique sequences are shamelessly cribbed from karate. But, looking hard at what I have learned, I see much in the way of logic and science but little in the way of Art.

Joab: Shamelesly cribbed from karate? Everybody borrows from everybody. Lots of systems contain no katas.



By that same token, a few other martial arts also lack kata--boxing, firearms, BJJ; can we justifiably call any of them "Arts"? Is kata the ingredient that transforms something from a fighting system into an art, or is there some other essential that I'm missing?

Joab: Yes, that you don't need kata to be a martial art.

What's your opinion on what makes something a martial Art?

Well, I would say some sort of systematic approach to physical movement that contains some combative function. Of course there are traditional martial arts, sports martial arts, cinematic martial arts and esoteric martial arts and reality based self defense systems all of which have different goals.

 

[K-man]

OK, thanks. I just seized on your comment that sanchin was the only kata practiced after the import from China. Knowing Higashionna taught kata extensively, I was curious to find out more from you. As I understand it, Okinawan karate has always used sets as a training method, although the golden age of kata development probably occurred during the first decade of 1900 when the likes of Mabuni and Miyagi were actively learning from their teachers and also cross-sharing their own forms.

Miyagi added the Gekkisai kata and Tensho. He also greatly modified sanchin from what Higashionna taught. No one knows for sure when Shisochin, Seiyunchin and Kururunfa were introduced but there's speculation that they were practiced as early as the mid 1800's in Okinawa.

On the Uechi side, we know Uechi came back from China with Sanchin, Sanseiru and Seisan.

Anyway, I personally think Goju people have always had more than Sanchin.

I think you might find Higaonna Sensei (Higashionna) introduced or designed the following kata including the three you felt were of unknown origin. Saifa, Seiyunchin, Shisochin, Sanseiru, Sepai, Sesan, Kururunfa, Suparinpei (Peichurin), Higaonna Sanshin (with turn). He returned to Okinawa, from China, and began teaching about 1880. He died in 1916 so I would contend that the golden age of kata was probably the 1880s and '90s while Higaonna, Yasutsune Itosu (Pinan (Heian) 1 - 5 , Tekki (Naihanchi) 1 - 3 , Rohai, Empi (Itosu-Wanshu), Bassai Dai, Bassai Sho, Kushanku (Kanku Dai), Shihokosokun, Chinte, Gojushiho, Hangetsu, Chinto) and Kosaku Matsumora (Jion, Jitte, Ji'in, Rohai, Wankan, Tomari Bassai, Tomari Chinto, Wabdo, Wanshu) were all in full flight and Bushi Matsumora (Bassai, Seisan, Chinto, Channan, Kushanku, Chinsu, Naihanchi, Gojushiho, Hakutsuru) was still alive.
Uechi only began teaching in Japan in 1924, having left China in 1909. Now if I knew and understood all those kata, I would consider myself a true martial artist. :asian:

 

[K-man]

I said kata with no purpose other than aesthetics is pointless. You just said the same thing. (Unless you think kata are pointless and only done for the sake of pretty after 20 years of study...)

Pleased to hear that. It was just that you didn't actually say what kata was to you. I took the implication as your view, humble apologies. :asian:

 

[Josh Oakley]

Art has multiple meanings. The term "Martial Art" wasn't meant to imply that kata = dance. Or to justify useless moves under the category "things that look cool".

Art: skilled workmanship, execution, or agency, as distinguished from nature.
Or: science, learning, or scholarship

The use of the word Art should not be used to justify useless actions (which a kata is if you view it as just something pretty to do), or actions done purely for aesthetic reasons.

actually kata means "ritual" and occurs in many aspects of japanese culture, including tea.

 

[K-man]

actually kata means "ritual" and occurs in many aspects of japanese culture, including tea.

Are you sure it has that meaning and not 'form' as in the manner in which the tea ceremony is performed? The word itself has many meanings, totally unrelated. (One that is used in MA ... kata dori = shoulder grab.) Bearing in mind, my Japanese friend tells me that many words used in karate are not used in the ordinary language of Japan. Maybe this is because of the Okinawan origin. :asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

I was always told by my instructor that I was learning the art of killing and maiming. He said nothing about it having to look pretty it just had to be done effectively. Kata was part of learning but self defense and learning how to fight and win was more important.
Anything one dose well can be considered an art of that person

 

[punisher73]

OK, thanks. I just seized on your comment that sanchin was the only kata practiced after the import from China. Knowing Higashionna taught kata extensively, I was curious to find out more from you. As I understand it, Okinawan karate has always used sets as a training method, although the golden age of kata development probably occurred during the first decade of 1900 when the likes of Mabuni and Miyagi were actively learning from their teachers and also cross-sharing their own forms.

Miyagi added the Gekkisai kata and Tensho. He also greatly modified sanchin from what Higashionna taught. No one knows for sure when Shisochin, Seiyunchin and Kururunfa were introduced but there's speculation that they were practiced as early as the mid 1800's in Okinawa.

On the Uechi side, we know Uechi came back from China with Sanchin, Sanseiru and Seisan.

Anyway, I personally think Goju people have always had more than Sanchin.

I think that newer research points to the idea that the katas derived from Kanryo Higashionna (4 of them, found in Goju, To'un and 3 of 4 in Uechi) were older Okinawan katas that he altered with the chinese influence. There is also newer research that he did not teach the other katas associated with Goju Ryu, but those were added by Miyagi. Look up and find articles by Mario McKenna. He has spent a fair amount of time and research on this matter.

As to an "art without kata", I think there are lots of them. Judo, Aikido, Motobu-Ryu etc. that did not have formal katas (solo practice). I think that it is the mindset of how you approach it determines the "art" of a particular martial art.

 

[ap Oweyn]

I think it's important to sort out, here, the difference between personal preference and objective need.

A lot of people enjoy kata (or sayaw/anyos as we call them in FMA). A lot of people find them useful tools for internalizing a sense of how your style moves. A lot of people find them helpful in cataloging their technique.

But kata is NOT what makes a martial art a martial art. It's a tool. It's not the project.

Western fencers and boxers, wrestlers, many eskrimadors, JKDers, BJJers, etc. don't use kata. Except in the more liberal use of the term, which grows to encapsulate any relatively set drill or pattern.

I think that, if kata "speaks" to you in some way, then by all means use it. But I think that's a personal thing and doesn't say anything in particular about the larger practice.

Even if we do maintain that something has to have some aesthetic component to it to be called "art" (and I don't personally subscribe to that), and even if you don't find sparring or "rolling" aesthetically pleasing (and I kinda do), there are other practices. The other use for the term "sayaw" in FMA is a more freestyle, unrehearsed action, like shadowboxing but with stick, knife, machete, whatever. It can be very aesthetic, but still not adhere to the level of organization or rehearsal that I associate with kata.


Stuart

 

[7starmarc]

I think it was in Adam Hsu's writings that I first was exposed to a greater comparison of the martial arts (particularly kung fu) to other arts, such as music.

Hsu likened the individual techniques to learning how to play discrete musical notes.

Basic forms were like practicing scales.

The higher forms of a style are equivalent to songs or compositions by famous song writers. There is distinct artistry in the creation of the song (or kata) as well as in the performance of the piece.

Sparring is like a jam session. It's another expression of the art in question.
You can use elements of known songs during a jam session, or you can completely feed off of the other musician's work. You don't need to know songs in order to jam, but they can help.

There may be musicians or musical traditions which do not have preset songs, except for the most basic rhythms. This does not make than any less music.

The key to the artistry of martial arts lies within the practitioner and how they view their practice. Of course, there are some who view the "art" of martial arts not in the context of artistry, but as an artisan, or skilled worker.

 

[Marginal]

actually kata means "ritual" and occurs in many aspects of japanese culture, including tea.

http://justaskeikaku.net23.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/lolwutsubbers-34.jpg
That's great. Irrelevant to the topic at hand tho.

 

[blindsage]

I'd hate to be the one to break it to the Brazilians that capoeira is not a martial art.

 

[Punchy]

You could even argue the point that MA without kata are more of a MA than those with. (devil's advocate...stay with me here)

MA's original intent was to teach fighting, right? Kata was simply the way of cataloging techniques for the sake of practice. But now they have become an end unto themselves instead of a means to an end.

While beautiful to watch, I think if the ancient masters could see people in silk PJ's dancing around, or doing forms sechronized to music they would be ashamed. Entertainment? To be sure. Talent? Absolutely! Can they fight? Beats me. And if they can't fight, is it truly a MA?

 

[Punchy]

One year plus into Krav Maga, looking back on my years in EPAK, I find myself missing the katas very much. I loved their grace and style. By contrast, Krav is all about practicality; there is no kata. I can tell that many of the movements and technique sequences are shamelessly cribbed from karate. But, looking hard at what I have learned, I see much in the way of logic and science but little in the way of Art.


I can appreciate what you are saying. I practiced a Southern Shaolin art for some 14 years and had forms out the wazzoo.
Then I started training in Wing Tsun and, like you, at first I missed the aesthetics of the classical forms and just the shear movement. But as time went on, I began to appreciate the subtleties of Wing Tsun and came to the realization that it is every bit the art form that my previous style I trained in was. In fact it may be even more of a MA, as it, like the Krav Maga you study, is more combat oriented.

 

[chinto]

i guess it could be... but Kata/ forms are a road map of the system. Kata teaches you how to move and technique and a lot of other things when done right.

Locally we have a very very senior sensei in kodenkan jujitsu who has made 7 kata for that system. it is an old samurai system of jujitsu but apparently did not have any kata. At a recent seminar he stated that he felt "Karate and other arts with kata were ahead of his style in that respect as it let you practice the techniques and movements with out a partner, and in a kind of short hand at times"

SO Kata is a great and wonderful tool. personally I expect that krav will have kata eventually. but it is a troop style desinged to teach to troops quickly and not be a compleat martial art in that it is a limited set of techniques that are designed to be taught quickly to a conscript or police officer to allow him to survive.

 

[Josh Oakley]

http://justaskeikaku.net23.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/lolwutsubbers-34.jpg
That's great. Irrelevant to the topic at hand tho.

Not quite. If we're going to talk about whether a Martial Art can be called Art without Kata, we should spend at least a little time talking about what Kata actually is.

For instance, the post right after yours. If Kata means "form practiced by ones self" Capoiera has no Kata (Though we'd have to call into question what kenjutsu practitioners call kata). However, if Kata means "ritual" as I say, then Capoiera is steeped in Kata. This would severely change the nature of response