Can anyone without training or experience execute effective techniques out of instinct?

[Bullsherdog]

I'm currently reading Kenichi: History's Strongest Disciple and one thing of point shown in the manga is that even among the trained fighter, there are lucky civilians who just out of sheer aggression and lack of hesitation to use violence are able to throw powerful blows that complete resemble proper mechanics for swinging a baseball bat or doing stuff like backfists.

For example Kenichi's sister can dodge the blows of master martial artists enough it shocked Kenichi. In addition there are high school delinquents who just because they are committed enough are able to use effective mechanics as they fight other gang members and even trained martial artists. Such as being able to throw kicks that break ankles or throw proper punches, even doing headlocks and the like just out of instinct. Even Kenichi's mom has been able to knock out his physically fit dad (who's a hunter) fby whacking him from behind with a fying pan (andshe's neither athletic nor a martial artist).

These remind me of two incidents.

First one happened when I was in middle school.My brother was learning some boxing and he got cocky that he tried to take me on when I told him to do his homework. He punched me a few times but instinctively I covered myself and when he threw the next punch I just was able to catch him a headlock and pin him onto the couch.

At this point in time I never practised fighting arts, not even done any sports, I didn't play video games, read comics, or watched anime and movies, well I practically was a lazy person who preferred to just sleep on the couch all day long. I never got into a school fight because I had superb social skills. The only hobby I had was practising rootworking and Biblical studies because I came froma devout Catholic family.

Second incident happened last year. I just got a puppy. I was moving my ottoman one day and I triped, Because my puppy was so hyper active he was running around me the whole time and he was right in front of me when I dropped the ottoman.He was directly standing when the ottoman was falling and I was scared he was gonna get killed and squished like a pancake. At the last moment he jumped out of the way milliseconds before it landed on the ground.

In addition, when we would roughtplay after he grew much bigger,while I'm pinning him to the ground he wound wrap his legs around my arms in what resembles a BJJ style armlock and than start biting my arms. A few times he even jumped on my and used his abdomen to pin me on the ground. A few times he intentionally tackled my legs to escape as I try to use my arms to grab him from above.

So I am curious is it possible to use effective martial arts techniques without any training, experience in fighting, exposure to violence,a and even never practising any sport such as running at all? And being a couch potato who never worked a hard day in the fields or even easier manual labor such as sculpting wood figures?

I mean how I manage to headlock my brother and pin him using the couch simply because I lost it and was panicking still makes me so confused to this day! In addition the way my month old puppy saw the ottoman falling and dodged at the last minute (despite never having been to an obstacle course and just being born a month prior and later donated to a pet store)! THe way he could instinctively use his arms to wrap around me as a BJJ fighter when he roughhouse after he grew bigger also makes me go "WTF!"! As does his knowledge of using his bodyweight in various ways to pin me and his understanding of attacking the human legs at certain angles to escape from me when I bring him in from the backyard!

So thats why I ask this. Kenichi shows untrained civilians who lack fighting experience being able to dodge attacks just out of anticipating and even use "techniques" like a frontal stomp kick and soccer kicks just out of instinct in the spur of the moment. Not to mention even a few peaceful people not interested in gang fights and martial arts losing it and throwing powerful blows just from sheer rage (as a bullied nerd does in the story) or knocking out stronger people using improvised weapons or sneak attacks (like Kenichi's mom does).

There is even a completely untrained fighter, Berserker, who became an outstanding fighter with effective techniques just from sheer experience as he fights in the streets and in addition he can even learn and replicate martial arts techniques just by observing his opponents and makes them among his personal style after beating them!

Is martial arts really necessary to know how to throw someone or to trip them using a sprawl technique (like my dog does)? Is it possible for someone to learn say how to throw a knee simply because he's pinned to the wall despite never taking Muay Thai? Or for a preppy chick to swing baseball bats with enough power to KO a Yakuza trained in karate (as happened in Kenichi) despite being effeminate and conditioned not to fight back?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is martial arts really necessary to know how to throw someone or to trip them using a sprawl technique (like my dog does)?

In striking art, a young strong white belt Karate guy may be able to land a punch on a black belt Karate guy.
In wrestling art, it's impossible for a young and strong white belt

- Judo guy to throw a black belt Judo guy, or
- BJJ guy to choke out a black BJJ guy.

 

[drop bear]

yes,

 

[Deleted member 39746]

depends what and what you call training and effective.

I doubt you will have no experience as play fighting is basic human entertainment and behavior. Even if it is just that weird link hands push fight thing children seem to call fighting. (no idea why thats a thing, but hey ho)

There are also a few sayings some people have come up with in regards to what skilled people do as opposed to natural fighters. (but some have completely opposite views so its not a science) Basically something to the effect, the cut is a natural technique the thrust is a trained one. Or the reverse pending who you talk to, apply that to fisty cuffs, natural fighters go circular/wide trained go straight/linear or reverse.

In striking art, a young strong white belt Karate guy may be able to land a punch on a black belt Karate guy.
In wrestling art, it's impossible for a young and strong white belt

- Judo guy to throw a black belt Judo guy, or
- BJJ guy to choke out a black BJJ guy.

I would dispute the latter pending weight, size and strength of both people and if the more skilled has any experience fighting someone of that stature in that context. Its highly context based though.


Addendum: What you are exposed to via media is quite influential in what you think works and doesn't if you havent been taught or experienced any different and what you might be inclined to do. Things like that which may be overlooked as well. Monkey see monkey do after all.

Addendum 2: Most people could also summon up the energy to maim somone else if they need to or are driven to it. Thats just basic human nature to survive. It doesn't matter how you do something so much as it gets results or not at the end of the day.

 

[drop bear]

There is a video on you tube of a kangaroo successfully applying a sleeper hold.

 

[Headhunter]

No

 

[Dirty Dog]

How would you find someone 'without training or experience' given that little kids grapple each other and smack each other?
I'd say no, really. Even though those kids learn to roll around and do some blocks, they're not instinctive, and they're only semi-effective.

 

[pdg]

Thats just basic human nature to survive.

This, really.

Call it instinct, or genetic programming, or whatever, there's an amount of will to survive that just exists.

A cow will protect itself and it's young, cats and dogs will fight, there was that video of grappling apes a while back.

If you count playfighting as "training and experience" then yeah you'll be hard pushed to find anyone (or any thing) without it, but taking classes and stuff - loads of people have successfully defended themselves without that.

It might not be 'genuine martial techniques', but it can work very well indeed - just not as reliably.

No

That is incredibly short sighted

 

[now disabled]

Call it instinct, or genetic programming

That is the fight or fight response ...in some one is stronger than the other

 

[now disabled]

the cut is a natural technique the thrust is a trained one. Or the reverse pending who you talk to, apply that to fisty cuffs, natural fighters go circular/wide trained go straight/linear or reverse.

Lad the cut and thrust if you are referring to swords is not natural at all ...for one thing swords can be very different in what they are designed for ie slashing ...thrusting or indeed fencing and use said effectively then it is taught and learned. Yes ok give most healthy fir people a sword and let them loose then yup damage will occur for sure but to effectively cut etc no that is taught young man.

As for your natural v trained fighter, again that is dependent on what his training is it is not carte blanche that a trained fighter will go direct or linear at all. Also it all depends on the situation and the surroundings and most importantly what you face or you perceive you face eg in you face a knife wielding drunk that staggering etc the approach may be different to that if you face a sober guy would looked in control of his faculties. So don't young man make to many assumptions.

 

[now disabled]

Berserker

A Berserker lol when you quote that word it makes me think purely of a type of warrior (Viking or Saxon, ok lets not get into Angles, jutes and saxons lol) and they were far from untrained and were indeed extremely troublesome to overcome, the are many theories on what made them a berserker but do not be fooled into thinking they were untrained as they were and battle hardened (we as long as they stayed alive that is) I wouldn't necessarily compare them to the way some Bushi (Samurai) rode out and challenged as that is an entirely different thing altogether if that is what your character did (I dunno)

swing baseball bats

Bro most healthy people could swing a ball bat and have an effect, just like give any one a sword and they can do damage, as to laying out a Yakuza, well yes that perfectly possibly but with a ball bat you could lay out anyone if your swinging it in either the right way or just by pure luck, again don't make assumptions as far as weapons or the use of them. it is entirely different doing something out of luck or chance to doing something out of being trained ...and I wouldn't put over much credence to any manga or movie type thing , do remember they are written to get readers and viewers lol,

 

[now disabled]

Addendum 2: Most people could also summon up the energy to maim somone else if they need to or are driven to it. Thats just basic human nature to survive. It doesn't matter how you do something so much as it gets results or not at the end of the day.

Rat becareful your making a sweeping statement there, basic human nature is a complex thing some have the fight response more instilled in them and some the flight response and those that are flight it can be very difficult to actually get the need driven into them as they may have many over riding factors working on them and within them

 

[pdg]

Rat becareful your making a sweeping statement there, basic human nature is a complex thing some have the fight response more instilled in them and some the flight response and those that are flight it can be very difficult to actually get the need driven into them as they may have many over riding factors working on them and within them

I'd contend that the vast majority of people have both fight and flight within - otherwise the human race wouldn't exist. It's not set either - a fighter will flee in certain circumstances, and vice versa.

It's actually the 'training' that they get from society that interferes with this.

 

[hoshin1600]

That is the fight or fight response ...in some one is stronger than the other

I'm sorry your thinking is not quite correct. All species have what are called fixed behavioral patterns. In everyday language we often call it instinct even tho that's not quite right. Fixed behavior patterns are behaviors that are not learned through environment. A squirrel does not need prior experience or need to see others to know how to Crack a nut and eat it.
However fixed behavior patterns become more efficient through practice. So the squirrel will learn to do the task faster with experience.
Fight, flight ,freeze is not related to FBP. These are decisions made in the moment that depend heavily on one's social status within a dominance hiarchy. Your past experiences have a large impact on how you will respond.
Conspecific fighting is a FBP. We don't need to learn how but we can become more effective and efficient. These are skills. Where as fight, flight, freeze is mostly chemical activity in the brain that prepares the body for action but there are decision circuits that activate based on emotions and past experience.
Whether to fight or not is different than the skills to respond.

 

[now disabled]

I'm sorry your thinking is not quite correct. All species have what are called fixed behavioral patterns. In everyday language we often call it instinct even tho that's not quite right. Fixed behavior patterns are behaviors that are not learned through environment. A squirrel does not need prior experience or need to see others to know how to Crack a nut and eat it.
However fixed behavior patterns become more efficient through practice. So the squirrel will learn to do the task faster with experience.
Fight, flight ,freeze is not related to FBP. These are decisions made in the moment that depend heavily on one's social status within a dominance hiarchy. Your past experiences have a large impact on how you will respond.
Conspecific fighting is a FBP. We don't need to learn how but we can become more effective and efficient. These are skills. Where as fight, flight, freeze is mostly chemical activity in the brain that prepares the body for action but there are decision circuits that activate based on emotions and past experience.
Whether to fight or not is different than the skills to respond.

I don't agree

Fight or flight is a response in everything it can yes be aided etc by "training" or by life experience but it a built in thing at least that was taught to me that way by the physce boys ( you may know as special warfare dudes) yes it is no doubt at all aided by what you say and built on but it is there in the beginning. I'm not just talking humans either

 

[jobo]

I don't agree

Fight or flight is a response in everything it can yes be aided etc by "training" or by life experience but it a built in thing at least that was taught to me that way by the physce boys ( you may know as special warfare dudes) yes it is no doubt at all aided by what you say and built on but it is there in the beginning. I'm not just talking humans either

Well yes and no, fight, flight or freeze, is indeed a built in mechanism, you are really Obligated by evolution to do one of the three, but which you choose to do, is a choice that depends on a whole load of conditioning and personality issues. you can even condition yourself to not use that mechanism at all, and just and calmly Carry on,air traffic controlers that run, start punching the screen or freeze are of no use to anyone

 

[now disabled]

Well yes and no, fight, flight or freeze, is indeed a built in mechanism, you are really Obligated by evolution to do one of the three, but which you choose to do, is a choice that depends on a whole load of conditioning and personality issues. you can even condition yourself to not use that mechanism at all, and just and calmly Carry on,air traffic controlers that run, start punching the screen or freeze are of no use to anyone

I agree bro ...was just saying it built in ...how it trained or sculpted depends

 

[jobo]

I'm currently reading Kenichi: History's Strongest Disciple and one thing of point shown in the manga is that even among the trained fighter, there are lucky civilians who just out of sheer aggression and lack of hesitation to use violence are able to throw powerful blows that complete resemble proper mechanics for swinging a baseball bat or doing stuff like backfists.

For example Kenichi's sister can dodge the blows of master martial artists enough it shocked Kenichi. In addition there are high school delinquents who just because they are committed enough are able to use effective mechanics as they fight other gang members and even trained martial artists. Such as being able to throw kicks that break ankles or throw proper punches, even doing headlocks and the like just out of instinct. Even Kenichi's mom has been able to knock out his physically fit dad (who's a hunter) fby whacking him from behind with a fying pan (andshe's neither athletic nor a martial artist).

These remind me of two incidents.

First one happened when I was in middle school.My brother was learning some boxing and he got cocky that he tried to take me on when I told him to do his homework. He punched me a few times but instinctively I covered myself and when he threw the next punch I just was able to catch him a headlock and pin him onto the couch.

At this point in time I never practised fighting arts, not even done any sports, I didn't play video games, read comics, or watched anime and movies, well I practically was a lazy person who preferred to just sleep on the couch all day long. I never got into a school fight because I had superb social skills. The only hobby I had was practising rootworking and Biblical studies because I came froma devout Catholic family.

Second incident happened last year. I just got a puppy. I was moving my ottoman one day and I triped, Because my puppy was so hyper active he was running around me the whole time and he was right in front of me when I dropped the ottoman.He was directly standing when the ottoman was falling and I was scared he was gonna get killed and squished like a pancake. At the last moment he jumped out of the way milliseconds before it landed on the ground.

In addition, when we would roughtplay after he grew much bigger,while I'm pinning him to the ground he wound wrap his legs around my arms in what resembles a BJJ style armlock and than start biting my arms. A few times he even jumped on my and used his abdomen to pin me on the ground. A few times he intentionally tackled my legs to escape as I try to use my arms to grab him from above.

So I am curious is it possible to use effective martial arts techniques without any training, experience in fighting, exposure to violence,a and even never practising any sport such as running at all? And being a couch potato who never worked a hard day in the fields or even easier manual labor such as sculpting wood figures?

I mean how I manage to headlock my brother and pin him using the couch simply because I lost it and was panicking still makes me so confused to this day! In addition the way my month old puppy saw the ottoman falling and dodged at the last minute (despite never having been to an obstacle course and just being born a month prior and later donated to a pet store)! THe way he could instinctively use his arms to wrap around me as a BJJ fighter when he roughhouse after he grew bigger also makes me go "WTF!"! As does his knowledge of using his bodyweight in various ways to pin me and his understanding of attacking the human legs at certain angles to escape from me when I bring him in from the backyard!

So thats why I ask this. Kenichi shows untrained civilians who lack fighting experience being able to dodge attacks just out of anticipating and even use "techniques" like a frontal stomp kick and soccer kicks just out of instinct in the spur of the moment. Not to mention even a few peaceful people not interested in gang fights and martial arts losing it and throwing powerful blows just from sheer rage (as a bullied nerd does in the story) or knocking out stronger people using improvised weapons or sneak attacks (like Kenichi's mom does).

There is even a completely untrained fighter, Berserker, who became an outstanding fighter with effective techniques just from sheer experience as he fights in the streets and in addition he can even learn and replicate martial arts techniques just by observing his opponents and makes them among his personal style after beating them!

Is martial arts really necessary to know how to throw someone or to trip them using a sprawl technique (like my dog does)? Is it possible for someone to learn say how to throw a knee simply because he's pinned to the wall despite never taking Muay Thai? Or for a preppy chick to swing baseball bats with enough power to KO a Yakuza trained in karate (as happened in Kenichi) despite being effeminate and conditioned not to fight back?

I hopE your not exspecting people who have spent years ,perhaps decades equiping themselves with fighting techniques to admit, that its quite possible to get by without them ?

Yes, Is sort of the answer, people have built in protective mechanisms, which mean its quite possible to jump out of the way of a speeding car (or punch ) with out any jumping out of the way of a speeding car training, just as some one with no training can and often do beat an attacker to a pulp,

But then you make it more complicated, theres a cross over of skills gained from other activerties, its a Lot easier to jump out of the way of a kick, if youve played soccer and have practised not getting kicked, oR put someone in a head lock if your been climbing treEs and have built up some strength, if your a person with little physical development, with little in the way of co ordination, you may instinctively, know how to defend your self, but the chances of you doing so successfully is much reduced, just as it will be with jumping out of the way of a speeding car

 

[jobo]

I agree bro ...was just saying it built in ...how it trained or sculpted depends

Yes but people have a tendancy to towards one, that then opens the whole nature v nurture debate, of if thats in built or learnt behavour.

My young nephew, who was gentle by nature, developed a tendancy towards shouting at bullies and theatning to kick their heads in, which according to my sister is a direct result of spending to much time with me

I have a take no !!!! From anyone policy, and as a strong male role model, he took that on board

 

[now disabled]

Yes but people have a tendancy to towards one, that then opens the whole nature v nurture debate, of if thats in built or learnt behavour.

My young nephew, who was gentle by nature, developed a tendancy towards shouting at bullies and theatning to kick their heads in, which according to my sister is a direct result of spending to much time with me

I have a take no !!!! From anyone policy, and as a strong male role model, he took that on board

Ok uncle jobo you are now a role model