Cab driver stabbed after being asked if he was a Muslim

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm not saying that there is any excuse for murdering innocent people. There isn't. There is also no excuse for thinking that our own actions do not have consequences. When you make deals with the devil, you have to assume there is going to be a high price to be paid in the end. It is just common sense.

Agreed. We have interests in the Middle East. It was decided, and it may have made sense at the time, to do as we did. Obviously if we could have predicted the results, we might have chosen a different path. But as you say, every action has consequences.

We have the situation in Iran now because why? Because we installed and propped up a puppet dictator, the Shah, and he was eventually overthrown by religious nutjobs who wanted (surprise, surprise) to run their own damned country instead of having the USA run it by proxy for them. Gee, I can't imagine why Iranians would be upset at having the USA control their dictator, who in turn controls them. We'd love it a lot if we were treated that way, right?

Hey, I'm not even criticizing what we did in Iran, in Iraq, or anywhere else in the Middle East. What's done is done. It doesn't make the terrorists justified; it means that they have grievances with the USA - whether justified or not. Everybody who does things, does them for a reason. I can't imagine why someone would be so dense as to imagine that the USA craps rose petals, everybody loves us, we do no wrong, and anyone who attacks us just does it on a whim.

 

[yorkshirelad]

No,. you clearly do not.



If you'd bothered to actually read the webpage, you'd have seen this:







Again, if you'd actually bothered to read the webpage, you'd have seen
this:





Actually, it doesn't matter because you're already convinced of your point of view-before they've even raised the money to tear down the building that's there and start building a new one......there's a word for that.

I read the website, but I question the source.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Oh yes, obviously. You will find no greater disrespector of women, Jews, gays and the Civil Rights movement than myself. Why, it's almost like I'm condemning over a billion people as being exactly the same as each other based on the actions of some of them.

Muslims on the whole are not the problem. It's muslims who publically state that UBL was "made in America". It's muslim's that say that we are in part to blame for 9/11. It's muslims that say that we are responsible for the death of 500 000 muslim babies. It's muslims who state that they don't believe Hamas to be a terrorist organization. Rauf has said all of this, but you guys don't want to acknowledge it.

Of course they have a perfect constitutional right to build this 'peaceful ecumenical temple' (ye right) where they are building it, but I believe that it's in extremely poor taste and wholeheartedly inappropriate to build it there and I have a constitutional right to express my opinion.

BTY there are also various outspoken muslims who also believe that the site for this "cultural center" is inappropriate are they islamaphobes also?

 

[yorkshirelad]

So your solution to dealing with intolerant Muslims is to silence a moderate Muslim, one of the extremist's enemies. You're doing their work for them, while simultaneously giving the extemists 'proof' that Americans are just Muslim-hating bigots that they can use to recruit more extemists. Well done. You should be proud.

I'm actually very proud. All those muslim hating bigots in the world trade center on 9/11 sure got what was coming to them eh Bill. Just listen to yourself. Fundamental muslims (note the word fundmental) hate us because of how we live. No molleycoddling, negotiations or appeasement will work on them. If anything it will embolden them.

 

[elder999]

I read the website, but I question the source.

No you don't "question it"-you dismissed it. It answers every one of your questions.

I'm actually very proud. All those muslim hating bigots in the world trade center on 9/11 sure got what was coming to them eh Bill. Just listen to yourself. Fundamental muslims (note the word fundmental) hate us because of how we live. No molleycoddling, negotiations or appeasement will work on them. If anything it will embolden them.

Not all fundamentalist muslims hate us-and the ones that do don't hate us because of "how we live." They have said repeatedly, for more than 40 years now, that they hate us because of our meddling in the Middle East and our support of Israel. There's no changing that. If I were to go over to someone else's house and punch them, and tell them it's 'cause their dog ***** on my lawn, and they keep letting their dog **** on my lawn, and I periodically punch them and tell them that's why, well, you think it would be clear to everyone watching and all involved that I wasn't doing it because they don't wear a ball cap or because they eat pork.....:lol:

 

[yorkshirelad]

Did the terrorists think they had just cause to attack us, yes or no? They felt they had provocation; our policies in the Middle East. That is what Rauf said and you lie if you deny it.

Was OBL or was he not a 'freedom fighter' in Afghanistan against the Soviets, an insurgency armed and funded by US tax dollars? OBL was indeed Made in the USA. Fact. If you don't like it, TFB. It's a fact.

OBL turned his attention to the USA when Saudi Arabia allowed US troops on Saudi soil during the first Gulf War, while they rebuffed his own offers to fight Saddam with his own private army. Thus, US policies affected his actions.

Nobody said OBL was right to do so, only a buffoon would believe that. It is fact that our policies affected his actions.

To state that, as the Imam did, is to state the truth. You got a problem with the truth?

I've got a problem with how this wanker states the truth. It's not exactly wise to partly blame the US for 9/11 in one sentence and then tell folk that he's building an islamic cultural center just a copule of blocks from where the attacks took place. He then expects the populace to be tolerant towards him and his flock. It's pure provocation and no amount of your bollocksology can deny that mate!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Muslims on the whole are not the problem. It's muslims who publically state that UBL was "made in America".

I'm a Christian, and I state it, because it is true.

It's muslim's that say that we are in part to blame for 9/11.

We are 'partly to blame' only in that we did things in the Middle East that had consequences. That's also a fact.

It's muslims that say that we are responsible for the death of 500 000 muslim babies.

I doubt anyone has said 500,000 babies, but there is no doubt that we've killed children in our air attacks. Do you deny this?

It's muslims who state that they don't believe Hamas to be a terrorist organization. Rauf has said all of this, but you guys don't want to acknowledge it.

Rauf has not said that Hamas is not a terrorist organization. He has refused to state that they are. This is not the same thing.

In any case, you continue to take his statements out of context; now that I've explained - repeatedly - what the actual context was, I see that this is intentional on your part.

Of course they have a perfect constitutional right to build this 'peaceful ecumenical temple' (ye right) where they are building it, but I believe that it's in extremely poor taste and wholeheartedly inappropriate to build it there and I have a constitutional right to express my opinion.

Yes, you have an absolute right to state your opinion. And I have a perfect right to say you are wrong to feel the way you do, because your reasoning is based on faulty logic and incorrect facts that you continue to believe regardless of the truth.

BTY there are also various outspoken muslims who also believe that the site for this "cultural center" is inappropriate are they islamaphobes also?

That is a false analogy. No one believes you are an Islamaphobe because you don't want the Mosque to be built where it is currently planned. Those that think it of you do so because of the hateful and disgusting things you've said, not to mention the outright lies you continue to utter. It is not your opinion that makes you what you are, it's the vile content of your mind that does that, which leaks out with every word you type. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm actually very proud. All those muslim hating bigots in the world trade center on 9/11 sure got what was coming to them eh Bill. Just listen to yourself. Fundamental muslims (note the word fundmental) hate us because of how we live. No molleycoddling, negotiations or appeasement will work on them. If anything it will embolden them.

But it will give them a bloody shirt to wave around. Thanks for handing them that.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I've got a problem with how this wanker states the truth. It's not exactly wise to partly blame the US for 9/11 in one sentence and then tell folk that he's building an islamic cultural center just a copule of blocks from where the attacks took place. He then expects the populace to be tolerant towards him and his flock. It's pure provocation and no amount of your bollocksology can deny that mate!

He made the statements years ago, before planning to build the Mosque. You'd know that, but you choose to ignore it.

It's not provocation, the man doesn't provoke anyone but bigots. Case in point, MATE.

 

[Archangel M]

Or will you ignore this post and then start a new thread in which you make the same claims all over again?

What threads have I started on this topic Bill?

BTW. Funding the Taliban? Supporting Saddam? Those seem like mistakes in regards to OUR self interests (now) vs mistakes that had evil intent when they were made. Why would the Taliban be mad that we supported them when the Russians invaded? And I agree with Bills last post regarding our presence in Saudi Arabia. But even he stated that that wasn't a "mistake". Simply a decision that now has consequence. As do ALL decisions we make. I just think that the "we made mistakes in foreign policy and now we are paying for it" is an oversimplified mantra that is convenient for some people with certain political views to spout without being able to name said "mistakes".

I think the real issue is that we support Israel.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What threads have I started on this topic Bill?

Sorry, my mistake. Posted on, not started.

BTW. Funding the Taliban? Supporting Saddam? Those seem like mistakes in regards to OUR self interests (now). Why would the Taliban be mad that we supported them when the Russians invaded?

I doubt they would. But that's conflating two statements. OBL is a Frankenstein's Monster that was learned how to fight in Afghanistan, as a 'holy warrior', against the Soviets, in a covert war that we supported with tax money and arms and training supplied by the CIA. This is the core truth of the statement 'OBL was Made in the USA.' Absolutely he was.

OBL was not an enemy of the USA then, but we helped create him as a leader and a asymmetric warfighter. He used those skills against us when he decided that we were his enemy later on, when we set our 'unholy' feet in Saudi Arabia and his own homeland kicked him out for being a punter. So two events, not one.

I think the real issue is that we support Israel.

I am sure that's in the mix as well. And I am in favor of us continuing to support Israel. I don't for a minute think that is a mistake on our part; but I'm also sure that it's one of the many reasons we're hated by Islamist terrorists.

 

[WC_lun]

I don't think supporting Israel is a mistake. i do think supporting monsters for short term politiccal goals at the expense of long term political outcomes is a mistake. So supporting and funding OBL and the Taliban then leaving the people of Afganastan to thier mercy is a mistake, in my opinion. We knew what they were. We knew what they were capable of. Supporting Hussein and funding his military while he was killing his own people because we were at odds with Iran. We were at odds with Iran because they ousted the man we placed in power there and took American hostages while we did it. There was no denying at the time that he was a human monster. So yes, we contributed to the atmosphere which made those terrorist possible. Could it have happened without our meddling and interference. Quite possibly, but OBL and the extremist like him would not have nearly the support they have if we had not have had these mis-steps. Voicing these things out loud is not supporting terrorism or hating on America. It is acknowledging that mistakes were made and understanding some of the anger in the Muslim world isn't because some extremist with dreams of power tell them to be angry. Hard feeling like that do not happen in a vaccumn.

If China or Russia had done the things that we have done in the Middle East, what do you suppose the discussions would look like then? Would those actions be looked on as merely things that happened? Or would they be looked upon as the short-sighted mistakes they were? Rauf is saying that the US policies helped create this atmospere. He never said we deserved what happened. There is a difference. Only people who have an axe to grind are putting those words in his mouth.

 

[xJOHNx]

@ Bill and the others: check out the movie: "charlie wilson's war", besides being funny it actually sketches an accurate sketch of what happened during the rise of the taliban.

2 more points to clarify

- OBL is just a charismatic leader. Look at the videos of the guy shooting an AK47. He almost recoils against the wall, and he's suppossed to be the great soldier? No he's just the man with the cash (don't forget, he's not from pakistan or afghanistan, h's saudi).

- Most of the taliban soldiers just roll along with eachother. Most of them don't know how to read or write, so let alone critical thinking.
The fact that their country has been in wars during the last couple of hunderd years doesn't really add up to it.

 

[Carol]

- Most of the taliban soldiers just roll along with eachother. Most of them don't know how to read or write, so let alone critical thinking.

Bingo. This is why the education provided at the community center is so important. I think some Americans hear that and think that's code for some kind of terrorist madrassah, where the steps are to provide better health and wellness knowledge, supporting educational efforts, and otherwise assist Muslims, esp. newer Americans, to integrate in to the United States and western culture as a whole. The more support a person has for educational efforts, analytical skills, critical thinking abilities, the less likely one will be blindly follow the lemmings off the cliff, so to speak.

If I'm not mistaken, the U.S. State Department from both the Bush administration as well as the Obama administration has been behind many of his trips to the Middle East, to show how being Muslim is not incompatible with being Western or a Western lifestyle...and he's extroverted enough to risk sticking himself out there.

 

[seasoned]

Education is critical for sure, lets hope some how that the hatred is addressed in some way also.

 

[Carol]

Education is critical for sure, lets hope some how that the hatred is addressed in some way also.

The only hatred I am seeing is directed at the Imam.

Outreach and actively working with other groups are a big part of the reason why the chater for the Board of Directors indicates that no single religion can encompass more than 50 percent of its membership, and why they have reached out to other relgious orgs in the area, including synagogues and churches.

 

[elder999]

The Outreach and actively working with other groups are a big part of the reason why the chater for the Board of Directors indicates that no single religion can encompass more than 50 percent of its membership, and why they have reached out to other relgious orgs in the area, including synagogues and churches.

Well, now, careful, Carol-we can't trust that source...

I read the website, but I question the source.

 

[Carol]

Hey I'll go investigate. I'm taking a 4 day weekend and don't need to be back at the office til Wednesday afternoon. Y'all take up a collect to cover my Acela fare, coupla nights at a Holiday Inn Express, and all the other associated research expenses, and I'm on it!!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That is exactly what we have, right down to bizarre concerns about purity and contamination, and the invention of a secret, disguised enemy among us who will take us over by trickery aided by those nasty liberals.

It is remarkable how closely the previous fears of Communism overlap the current fears of Islam. If you were to replace the names in a Bircher pamphlet from the 50's with Islam and Muslim, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The Birchers even thought Eisenhower was a secret Communist agent, much like the Islamophobes seem convinced that Obama is a secret Muslim.

Speaking of the John Birch Society reminded me of McCarthy:

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[Blade96]

i think knowing about american history that the US is responsible for a reason why a lot of the world hates it.

But just ordinary hate and dislike.

No one deserves to have 3000 of their people killed by some nut bars flying planes into buildings.

i remember exactly what i was doing when that happened. and the next day our university held a two mins of silence at the clock tower in solidarity. Of course I was there. and next year on the first anniversary the same thing. and I was there too. Everyone sympathized with you americans when that happened. It was a sin. No much more than just a sin. Was an act of mass murder. and though i was and still am a disliker of us governments and such the kind of anti americanism thats just regular dislike and hate, I could never think of doing such an unspeakable act. It was horrible!