Cab driver stabbed after being asked if he was a Muslim

[yorkshirelad]

Have a look here:

Oh, I get it Elder, so this isn't a sharia academy at all. This is going to be a multi-faith community center, where Christians, Jews and Muslims are going to hold hands singing Kumbayah. Wonderful!! I suppose there will also be ecumenical services read by women and open gay priests from the Anglican community.
We should also not even mention Rauf's claims that the US is as responsible as Al Qaeda for the 9/11 attacks and the UBL was made in the US. No, don't mention any of that, because that would be bigotry and intolerance. Another thing, let's not even question how this 'Cultural center of tolerance' is being funded, who cares. It doesn't matter, because this 'temple of co-existance' will be used to teach Islamic children that tolerance is wonderful and women, gays and and jews are to be respected and that the civil rights movement was noble.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I'm still not sure how that affects Branch Davidians.



You're welcome to your opinion, but you'd be wrong.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201008260002



He's talking about a different understanding of Sharia than you think, but that's a nuanced viewpoint that would require a nuanced understanding of religion. The current shoot-first-ask-questions-never zeitgeist doesn't support deep thought, IMHO.



Well, they're going to use it, but that's what happens. The fact is, this guy could just as well have been a Tea Party freakazoid. While most Tea Partiers would not do such a thing, once you get a crowd riled up, things start to happen. That's the level the rhetoric has reached. I hope people take a step back now instead of continuing to make up crap about Islam that they clearly don't understand to support their odd anti-freedom position on the so-called mosque.

Wonderful Bill, my lack of Islamic understanding is probably due to the fact that I spent time among them in England in my teens. There's nothing like being attacked by a bunch of Pakistanis in your own country just because you walk down a street that they have claimed. Then there was beautiful Jasmin Ahkbar, a check out girl in my local Tesco who dated me once and then stopped calling me because she got the **** kicked out of her by her Dad and brothers. Great people, pillars of the Islamic community.
Maybe I should invite them over for the 'Tolerance center' grand opening. We could bury the hatchet, hold hands and love one another as human beings.

 

[Empty Hands]

...women, gays and and jews are to be respected and that the civil rights movement was noble.

I would be more impressed with this argument if I thought the Islamophobes believed in any of it themselves.

 

[yorkshirelad]

This is a sad story. not just because an innocent man got hurt because of his religious preference, but because it seems so many are at a place where they think he probably deserved it for being muslim. Looking at all the protest I am seeing against mosque all over the US, it is becoming very worrisome.

As far as an extremist actions making it hard to argue your point...welcome to how most Muslims feel. Ironic, huh?

You're right, Muslims get persecuted all over the world. In Iran they hang men for being gay. In Afghanistan, the Taliban (those wonderful sharia loving men) allow men to cut off their wive's noses and ears if she doesn't toe the line. In Saudi Arabia, if you steal a loaf of bread you get your right hand cut off. And, let's not forget the stonings that these wonderful persecuted people do if they find a woman who committed adultery. But of course you're right, using your first amendment right to speak out against a 'sharia aca..." hu hu sorry 'cultural center of harmony and tolerance' a stones throw from where ISLAMIC terrorists killed nearly 3000 people is the utmost evil and should be stopped.

 

[yorkshirelad]

I would be more impressed with this argument if I thought the Islamophobes believed in any of it themselves.

You obviously don't. You Conservaphobes love to be the standard bearer of tolerance, as long as it's tolerance on your terms.

 

[yorkshirelad]

Going off to train now. This sitting around playing politics on the computer is making me fat.

 

[Empty Hands]

You obviously don't. You Conservaphobes love to be the standard bearer of tolerance, as long as it's tolerance on your terms.

Oh yes, obviously. You will find no greater disrespector of women, Jews, gays and the Civil Rights movement than myself. Why, it's almost like I'm condemning over a billion people as being exactly the same as each other based on the actions of some of them.

 

[elder999]

Oh, I get it Elder, so this isn't a sharia academy at all.

No,. you clearly do not.

We should also not even mention Rauf's claims that the US is as responsible as Al Qaeda for the 9/11 attacks and the UBL was made in the US. No, don't mention any of that, because that would be bigotry and intolerance.

If you'd bothered to actually read the webpage, you'd have seen this:

On 60 Minutes, the Imam said that American Foreign policy is an accessory to terrorism”
The ‘60 Minutes’ piece was completely incorrect as the statement was edited out of context. In the full interview, Imam Feisal describes the mistake the CIA made in the 1980s by financing Osama Bin Laden and strengthening the Taliban. This view is widely shared today by journalists, foreign policy experts and the US government. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf underlines the importance of not supporting “friends of convenience” who may later become our enemies. This is common sense.

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf is an American who takes his role as a citizen-ambassador very seriously. He is frequently requested by the US State Department to tour Muslim majority and western countries to speak about the merits of American ideals and Muslim integration into Western society. At the request of the FBI after 9/11, he provided cultural training to hundreds of FBI agents.

“Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf won’t condemn terrorism”
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf has always condemned terrorism. Here are his words from his 2004 book, What’s Right with Islam is What’s Right with America: “The truth is that killing innocent people is always wrong – and no argument or excuse, no matter how deeply believed, can ever make it right. No religion on earth condones the killing of innocent people; no faith tradition tolerates the random killing of our brothers and sisters on this earth. God does not want us to kill each other.” He has repeated the same thing in hundreds of speeches around the world.

Another thing, let's not even question how this 'Cultural center of tolerance' is being funded, who cares.

Again, if you'd actually bothered to read the webpage, you'd have seen
this:

Who is funding the Community Center?
No funds for this project have been raised to date. Before fundraising can begin, a new nonprofit organization will be formed. A project of this scale will require very diverse fundraising sources, including individuals from all faiths and beliefs, including Christians and Jews, who are committed to peace and understanding. We expect that our sources of funding will include individuals of different religions, charitable organizations, public funds, institutional and corporate sponsors.



You will need a lot of contributors. Who will review your donor list?
We will invite the New York Charities Bureau and the US Treasury Department to review our donor list to ensure that all funding sources are vetted to their satisfaction and approved. In addition, the new non-profit’s Trustees and Advisory Board will include a multi-faith group of distinguished individuals who will ensure that the community center stays true to its objectives of peace, tolerance and understanding between all.

It doesn't matter, because this 'temple of co-existance' will be used to teach Islamic children that tolerance is wonderful and women, gays and and jews are to be respected and that the civil rights movement was noble.

Actually, it doesn't matter because you're already convinced of your point of view-before they've even raised the money to tear down the building that's there and start building a new one......there's a word for that.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Wonderful Bill, my lack of Islamic understanding is probably due to the fact that I spent time among them in England in my teens. There's nothing like being attacked by a bunch of Pakistanis in your own country just because you walk down a street that they have claimed. Then there was beautiful Jasmin Ahkbar, a check out girl in my local Tesco who dated me once and then stopped calling me because she got the **** kicked out of her by her Dad and brothers. Great people, pillars of the Islamic community.
Maybe I should invite them over for the 'Tolerance center' grand opening. We could bury the hatchet, hold hands and love one another as human beings.

So your solution to dealing with intolerant Muslims is to silence a moderate Muslim, one of the extremist's enemies. You're doing their work for them, while simultaneously giving the extemists 'proof' that Americans are just Muslim-hating bigots that they can use to recruit more extemists. Well done. You should be proud.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

We should also not even mention Rauf's claims that the US is as responsible as Al Qaeda for the 9/11 attacks and the UBL was made in the US. No, don't mention any of that, because that would be bigotry and intolerance.

Did the terrorists think they had just cause to attack us, yes or no? They felt they had provocation; our policies in the Middle East. That is what Rauf said and you lie if you deny it.

Was OBL or was he not a 'freedom fighter' in Afghanistan against the Soviets, an insurgency armed and funded by US tax dollars? OBL was indeed Made in the USA. Fact. If you don't like it, TFB. It's a fact.

OBL turned his attention to the USA when Saudi Arabia allowed US troops on Saudi soil during the first Gulf War, while they rebuffed his own offers to fight Saddam with his own private army. Thus, US policies affected his actions.

Nobody said OBL was right to do so, only a buffoon would believe that. It is fact that our policies affected his actions.

To state that, as the Imam did, is to state the truth. You got a problem with the truth?

 

[WC_lun]

You're right, Muslims get persecuted all over the world. In Iran they hang men for being gay. In Afghanistan, the Taliban (those wonderful sharia loving men) allow men to cut off their wive's noses and ears if she doesn't toe the line. In Saudi Arabia, if you steal a loaf of bread you get your right hand cut off. And, let's not forget the stonings that these wonderful persecuted people do if they find a woman who committed adultery. But of course you're right, using your first amendment right to speak out against a 'sharia aca..." hu hu sorry 'cultural center of harmony and tolerance' a stones throw from where ISLAMIC terrorists killed nearly 3000 people is the utmost evil and should be stopped.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the US is NOT the same as those places where such violent and oppressive tacticts are used. When we start using the actions of extremist in other places to justify bigotry and hatred here, we become what the terrorist say we are and we bocome that which we hate. The US, and I presume Great Britain, are countries based upon laws and tolerance for people different than ourselves. The first amendment makes that tolerance part of our law. You cannot be a just and tolerant society to only some of your citizens. You either are or you aren't. If a person uses violence to enforce his opinion, I'm all for locking them up and throwing away the key. That goes for anyone of any religion or belief.

A moderate Muslim friend told me shortly after 911 that there is a part in the Quran which says to kill an innocent is the same as killing all of humanity. He was very distraught that someone claiming to believe in Islam could commit such horendous a horrendous act. That is the normal attitide of most Muslims.

The US did indeed do things which made it easier for Al'Queda to recruit emn and brainwash them into doing such vile things. If you don't believe that, then you haven't been paying attention to US foreign policy. We made mistakes. Is it justification for killing 3000 people? Hell no. If we don't recognize our mistakes, we will repeat them. making it easier in the future for such acts to happen. Denying our own mistakes is willful ignorance and is not helpful in any way.

It seems your bigotry towards islam has a lot to do with your personal experience with a few bigoted muslims. Is the best path to become just as bigoted as they are?

 

[Tez3]

If the mosque is being run by a Sufi will there be singing? Not a frivolous question btw as some of you will know.

We have many different 'types' of Muslim in England, I don't want people to think we only have the radical type, we have the 'working my hardest to provide for my family and be a good citizen type' and the 'very pleased to be British' type. We also have the BNP and Combat 18 who will beat up a white girl for going out with someone outside her culture and who will beat up old Pakistani ladies. However all white people don't belong to the BNP and all Muslims aren't extremists.

We have quite a few Muslims in the forces who are deployed in Afghanistan, we also have Jews, Sikhs, Hindus, atheists, agnostics, gays, bisexuals, and transexuals in the forces serving in Afghanistan. There's no room for prejudice of any type. We have Muslims yes who want to kill our troops, we also have Christians who want to kill our troops.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/aug/10/car-bomb-murder-cookstown

The Provisional IRA was funded largely by Americans, the current Republican terrorists may still be. Perhaps by the same people who are denouncing Muslim terrorism and want the mosques not to be built. Perhaps one man's terrorist really is another man's freedom fighter.

 

[elder999]

. We also have the BNP and Combat 18 who will beat up a white girl for going out with someone outside her culture and who will beat up old Pakistani ladies. However all white people don't belong to the BNP and all Muslims aren't extremists.

And not all Catholics are in the Mafia, and a horse can't moo, and a cow can't whinny......:lfao:

.The Provisional IRA was funded largely by Americans, the current Republican terrorists may still be. Perhaps by the same people who are denouncing Muslim terrorism and want the mosques not to be built. Perhaps one man's terrorist really is another man's freedom fighter.

Quite. I think this actually touches on the whole Hamas question at times, since it's both a legitimate political power (by virtue of the people's votes) and a terrorist group, much like the quibbling difference made by American's (some of them my Irish friends who sent $$$) between the IRA and Sinn Fein...

 

[xJOHNx]

Wonderful Bill, my lack of Islamic understanding is probably due to the fact that I spent time among them in England in my teens. There's nothing like being attacked by a bunch of Pakistanis in your own country just because you walk down a street that they have claimed. Then there was beautiful Jasmin Ahkbar, a check out girl in my local Tesco who dated me once and then stopped calling me because she got the **** kicked out of her by her Dad and brothers. Great people, pillars of the Islamic community.
Maybe I should invite them over for the 'Tolerance center' grand opening. We could bury the hatchet, hold hands and love one another as human beings.

You shouldn't confuse your own personal experiences/demons with something that is happening years later in another country, with a whole different crowd of people.

I study in the Sufi tradition (and just like in Christianity, there is more than 1 tradition) and I can tell that they are not anything like the chaps I meet on the streets.

You must understand that people from Pakistan, Afghanistan and so on are just grouped by their common belief in Islam. But the cultural differences still remain.
For example: Iran is becoming of of the leading countries in scientific research and also one of the countries with the highest number of corrective surgeries (mostly about the Persian nose). Also, women are very sofisticated and generally very lovely to talk to.
Now if you go to Pakistan/Afghanistan where you still have the tribal feelings and ****ed up practices like 'dancing boys', you see that although both are connected through Islam, culturally they are as different as can be.

I wish I could write a more elaborate post, but I think my words fall into deaf man's ears.
But if you like, I can give you more info about the cultural differences between the inhabitants of different Sharia Nations.
Or even between the different 'sects' that exist under the general flag of Islam.

 

[Blade96]

But Bill, "They All Want To Kill Us" as one idiot on Facebook said to me as I dropped her from my list. All 1.6 billion of the worlds Muslims are even now, actively conspiring to kill us all, all us non-Muslims. Dunno if they have a private wifi, have developed telepathy, or are using carrier pidgeons to coordinate this, but my source was quite certain, as are alot of people that "They" are coming for us.

I got a couple sideways glances and questions about my religion and background myself. Most of it from random loudmouths who didn't see what I saw. I was one of the first there working triage out of the BMCC campus.

Some people in the states today remind me of a 21 century version of McCarthy. Only instead of Commies, ya got Muslims.

 

[Empty Hands]

Some people in the states today remind me of a 21 century version of McCarthy. Only instead of Commies, ya got Muslims.

That is exactly what we have, right down to bizarre concerns about purity and contamination, and the invention of a secret, disguised enemy among us who will take us over by trickery aided by those nasty liberals.

It is remarkable how closely the previous fears of Communism overlap the current fears of Islam. If you were to replace the names in a Bircher pamphlet from the 50's with Islam and Muslim, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The Birchers even thought Eisenhower was a secret Communist agent, much like the Islamophobes seem convinced that Obama is a secret Muslim.

 

[Blade96]

That is exactly what we have, right down to bizarre concerns about purity and contamination, and the invention of a secret, disguised enemy among us who will take us over by trickery aided by those nasty liberals.

It is remarkable how closely the previous fears of Communism overlap the current fears of Islam. If you were to replace the names in a Bircher pamphlet from the 50's with Islam and Muslim, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The Birchers even thought Eisenhower was a secret Communist agent, much like the Islamophobes seem convinced that Obama is a secret Muslim.

I know, eh? I studied the cold war (i'm a history major) and i remarked to my father some years ago that its creepy how so many things that happened after 9/11 are a lot like what happened during the cold war.

Ike as a Communist agent, LOL, that one still makes me laugh.

 

[Archangel M]

The US did indeed do things which made it easier for Al'Queda to recruit emn and brainwash them into doing such vile things. If you don't believe that, then you haven't been paying attention to US foreign policy. We made mistakes.

What exactly were these "mistakes" and what grievance does AlQueda use as their excuse for the murder of thousands of non-combatants on 9/11?

It's been my experience that many of the people who like to say "we asked for it" can't explain exactly what it was that we did.

 

[WC_lun]

What exactly were these "mistakes" and what grievance does AlQueda use as their excuse for the murder of thousands of non-combatants on 9/11?

Really? Okay, just one mistake off the top of my head, funding and supporting the Taliban for years. We knew the Taliban's extrme views when we were giving them weapons and funding. Then we no longer needed them we had nothing to do with them or the Afghan people.

Wait, wait, here's another. We funded and supported Sadam Hussien. Why? Because he was a convenient political ally against Iran. Never mind that he was a tyrant that was killing his own people. That can be overlooked...until we want to put boots on the ground in the Middle East, then him being a tyranical dictator is a perfectly good excuse for invasion.

I'm not saying that there is any excuse for murdering innocent people. There isn't. There is also no excuse for thinking that our own actions do not have consequences. When you make deals with the devil, you have to assume there is going to be a high price to be paid in the end. It is just common sense.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What exactly were these "mistakes" and what grievance does AlQueda use as their excuse for the murder of thousands of non-combatants on 9/11?

I've stated it several times in this thread. Let's do it again.

Here's a simple one, on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Formation_and_structuring_of_Al-Qaeda

Following the Soviet Union's withdrawal from Afghanistan in February 1989, Osama bin Laden returned to Saudi Arabia in 1990 as a hero of jihad, who along with his Arab legion, "had brought down the mighty superpower" of the Soviet Union.[49] The Iraqi invasion of Kuwait on August 2, 1990 had put the kingdom and its ruling House of Saud at risk. The world's most valuable oil fields were within easy striking distance of Iraqi forces in Kuwait, and Saddam's call to pan-Arab/Islamism could potentially rally internal dissent. bin Laden met with King Fahd, and Sultan, Minister of Defence of Saudi Arabia, telling them not to depend on non-Muslim troops, and offered to help defend Saudi Arabia with his mujahideen fighters. Bin Laden's offer was rebuffed, and after the American offer to help repel Iraq from Kuwait was accepted, involving deploying U.S. troops in Saudi territory,[50] he publicly denounced Saudi Arabia's dependence on the U.S. military, as he believed the presence of foreign troops in the "land of the two mosques" (Mecca and Medina) profaned sacred soil. Bin Laden's criticism of the Saudi monarchy led that government to attempt to silence him.
Shortly after Saudi Arabia permitted U.S. troops on Saudi soil, bin Laden turned his attention to attacks on the west. On November 8, 1990, the FBI raided the New Jersey home of El Sayyid Nosair, an associate of al Qaeda operative Ali Mohamed, discovering a great deal of evidence of terrorist plots, including plans to blow up New York City skyscrapers, marking the earliest uncovering of al Qaeda plans for such activities outside of Muslim countries.[51] Nosair was eventually convicted in connection to the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, and for the murder of Rabbi Meir Kahane on November 5, 1990.
Bin Laden continued to speak publicly against the Saudi government for harboring American troops, for which the Saudis banished him. He went to live in exile in Sudan, in 1992, in a deal brokered by Ali Mohamed.[52]

OBL, the founder of Al Qaeda, was mad at the US influence in the Middle East, particularly their presence on Saudi Arabian soil. That is the beginning of their grievances with the USA. There are many more.

A mistake for us to land troops in Saudi Arabia? I don't think so. But the fact that it is an action that we took, and that it is a grievance that OBL used to justify his terror attacks on the USA, means that yes, OBL had grievances against the USA.

It's been my experience that many of the people who like to say "we asked for it" can't explain exactly what it was that we did.

I can't think of anyone in this thread who has said "we asked for it."

What I have said, and what Imam Rauf has said, is that Al Qaeda did not suddenly pop into existence in a vacuum, hating the USA for no particular reason except it was sunny that day and they prefer rain. The fact is that they had and have grievances against the USA. Are they justified to have grievances? I have no idea. I'm sure a lot of people don't like having their culture destroyed by outsiders, and we do tend to act like a bull in a china shop, exporting Democracy and so on wherever we go.

But that does NOT mean that "we asked for it." It means that there were precipitating factors. If we had ignored Kuwait when Iraq invaded them, OBL would not have gone to war with the USA. That does NOT mean that we should not have defended Kuwait. It does not mean that his actions against us were justified. It does NOT mean that "we asked for it." It means that he had reasons to do what he did, and that our actions were those reasons. Everybody has reasons, it doesn't mean that they are justified. Hitler had reasons, Stalin had reasons, Pol Pot had reasons; they all had reasons that they thought justified their actions. None of that means that their victims "asked for it."

There are surely some few in the USA (but none in this thread that I've read of) who do believe that our own actions were wrong, and that we erred by committing them, and that if we had acted differently in the Middle East, we would not have been attacked. I don't agree with them. Even if we have made mistakes in the Middle East - and we have, but it is practically impossible NOT to make mistakes - we would have become targets sooner or later anyway.

I suspect that a clash was coming no matter what, just because of the fact that fundamentalist Islam, militant Islam, is not compatible with Western ideals. As more and more Muslims became 'Westernized' and found concepts like Democracy and freedom and religious tolerance to be good things that they wanted, the extremists became more and more outraged. And their outrage was directed at the culture that exported that Western flavor - the USA (primarily) and then the UK and Europe.

I am no fan of OBL or Islamist terrorists. If and as they are found, I am firmly in favor of a bullet in their brains, each and every one of them.

However, that does not mean that I am such an America-first, love it or leave it, we never do anything wrong, drumbeater that I am incapable of recognizing that everyone, no matter how twisted and wrong, thinks they have provocation to do what they do.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. Nobody gets up in the morning and says "Ho hum, I think I'll recruit a bunch of guys and get them to fly some planes into some buildings in the USA, what the hell, they never did anything to me, but I'm just sick in the head like that." Yeah, OBL thought he had provocation and justification. Yeah, it was based on things we actually did. That doesn't make what he did right - it makes it justified in his own sick brain.

When Imam Rauf said that OBL was "Made in America," he was speaking the truth. We US taxpayers, via the CIA, funded and supplied the rebels who fought the Soviets in Afghanistan. OBL was one of the rebels who went there to fight the Soviets. He is, in a very real sense, a Frankenstein's Monster, and we are Frankenstein in that sense. Yes, he was Made in America. We made him. How could anyone not understand that?

Do you need me to explain this all again? Or will you ignore this post and then start a new thread in which you make the same claims all over again?