CA. Teacher Banned for Declaration of Independence

[MA-Caver]

Now I don't know about the rest of you but something is seriously wrong here.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,140042,00.html
Banned from Showing Students the Declaration of Independence
Tuesday, November 30, 2004
Ex-CBS News Head on the Network's Future
September 21, 2004
This is a partial transcript from "Hannity & Colmes," Nov. 29, 2004, that has been edited for clarity.
Watch "Hannity & Colmes" weeknights at 9 p.m. ET!
ALAN COLMES, CO-HOST: A teacher is being banned by his school from showing students historical documents that make any reference to God, including the Declaration of Independence (search). The teacher is now suing the school for discrimination, claiming he's been singled out because he is a Christian. The school district released the following statement in response:
"The district believes that well-established constitutional principles relating to the separation of church and state must prevail. The district has not violated the constitutional rights of Mr. Williams or any other person. The district denies the allegations in the complaint and has referred the case to its attorneys."
Joining us now from California is fifth-grade teacher Steven Williams. And from Phoenix, Arizona, an attorney with the Alliance Defense Fund (search), Jordan Lorence.
Good to have you both with us.
Let me begin with you. Tell us what happened.
STEVEN WILLIAMS, FIFTH-GRADE TEACHER: Well, basically, it's just sad to me that the separation of church and state has been just kind of warped to mean that we can't even include some of our founding documents in the classroom.
COLMES: But what happened to you? Explain to us, explain to our audience what happened to you.
WILLIAMS: Yes. Last year, I hadn't changed my curriculum much at all. At the beginning of last year, towards about three weeks into it, after studying the Pledge, the student asked, Mr. Williams, why do we have "under God" in the Pledge? And, at the time, as you know, the Supreme Court was going to be hearing that case, so I thought, wow, current events as well as past events is a very appropriate topic to talk about.
COLMES: Right.
WILLIAMS: So we said, well, let's discuss this for a little bit. After discussing it for maybe three or four minutes, got to the end of the day. And about 20 minutes after the end of school, my principal came in and said, "What are you doing talking about God in the classroom?" And I was kind of taken aback. And, as it turns out, a parent complained immediately after that.
About a month later — and again, this doesn't come up that much in my classroom. I think some people think that I'm trying to put these things in or talk about this all the time. — This has happened a handful of times this whole year, is what precipitated, you know, into this event.
COLMES: But what about the Declaration of Independence? Did you bring that document in? Does the school have a right — let me go to Mr. Lorence — does the school have a right to determine what documents can or cannot be utilized by a teacher in the classroom?
JORDAN LORENCE, ALLIANCE DEFENSE FUND: Well, they can. And here, in this situation, they allow teachers like Mr. Williams to bring in supplemental materials. And there are state governmental teaching guidelines that say what the objectives are that they are supposed to teach. And the Declaration of Independence clearly falls within it. He was doing nothing wrong. There was no particular ban on this.
HANNITY: Hey, Steven, Sean Hannity here. Thanks for being with us.
Now, I have read that less than 5 percent of your handouts, you know, even have any reference to God at all in this whole thing, correct?
WILLIAMS: That's right.
HANNITY: So this is a rare occurrence that just came up, as you mentioned earlier. But I understand, as a result of you just discussing what was in the news, from a historical perspective, which I think was appropriate, that you had to submit all of your materials to the principal before you would even be allowed to use it in class. You were singled out, in other words?
WILLIAMS: Correct. About three-quarters of the way through the year, after, again, a handful of incidents that came up, after one incident, my principal said, "OK, before you hand out or talk about anything with references to God, Christianity, or Jesus, I want to know about it."
HANNITY: Right.
WILLIAMS: So I started to submit to her everything, and that's when I submitted to her one lesson plan. Then you've all heard the Declaration of Independence was banned, and it was. What I submitted was three documents: William Penn's, "The Frame of Government (search)," Samuel Adams, "The Rights of Colonists (search)," and the Declaration of Independence. My intent, as I explained to my principal, was to show where the wording from the Declaration of Independence comes from. And it came — you can see the wording in our founding documents.
HANNITY: What was her rationale, Steven?
WILLIAMS: Well, in the e-mail that she replied to me, she said, quote — well, I'm paraphrasing — but she said that, once again, all of the documents that you submitted to me are of a religious nature and you are trying to push your religious views on to the students.
HANNITY: The Declaration of Independence is...
WILLIAMS: And the William Penn's "Frame of" — yes.
HANNITY: Well, I don't blame you for bringing suit here. And nobody else was treated this way. No other teacher had to give their documents ahead of time?
WILLIAMS: No.
HANNITY: And they're so — the position is the Declaration of Independence is religious because it mentions, you know, endowed by their creator.
WILLIAMS: You know, and another thing, I just did a radio talk show yesterday. And a teacher called in and they debated why "under God" was in the Pledge. And so, it was amazing because, I proposed to my principal that — the kids to do that exact lesson, and she denied it because I was trying to push...
(CROSSTALK)
COLMES: Steven, we've got to pick it up again. We thank you very much for being with us tonight. Mr. Lorence, thank you.

Just what is this going to be leading to. That our children will be denied even viewing in a learning environment a historical (and in my mind/heart/soul a sacred) document like the Declaration of Independence. Sure it has God in it because (IMO) God, inspired Jefferson to write it. This paper has the blueprints of this country (among the Bill of Rights and others) and kids need to know all of it so that the integrity of the documents will continue to guide them in their future. IMO the principal of the school should be banned not the teacher. I hope he wins the suit and something good will come of it. Hopefully he'll get his job back and allowed to teach American History as it was meant to be taught... Truthfully and unashamed.
Thoughts, opinions here? Or am I alone in this outrage?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I see something very wrong when you ban the very documents our nation was founded upon over a stupid misunderstanding of the concept of seperation of church and state.

Its not the bible, its the damn founding principles of this country.

Utter insanity.

 

[MisterMike]

Sounds a bit like he was singled out:

WILLIAMS: Well, in the e-mail that she replied to me, she said, quote — well, I'm paraphrasing — but she said that, once again, all of the documents that you submitted to me are of a religious nature and you are trying to push your religious views on to the students.


They must have known he was open about his religion. Another no-no.

 

[Deuce]

I think it's ridiculous. From what I understand, the teacher wasn't pushing God on the kids at all. I don't see how mentioning the word "God" in the classroom is a crusade of christian recruitment. There are so many references to God from all sorts of historical sources. To deny the children exposure to important historical works because "God" is mentioned is to deny our children education.

 

[qizmoduis]

Please. There are no schools in this country where teaching the Declaration of Independence is banned. Notice the very selective choice of documents actually discussed in the article and the reference to other unnamed religious documents. It sounds like a rather typical fabrication to me. This kind of nonsense happens all the time. Some hyper-religious nutcase decides to use his or her position of power as a teacher to indoctrinate captive students in their religion, and gets called on it. Right-wing echo-chamber picks it up, and voila! Sensationalism at its finest. The real story will come out in a few days, but will be completely ignored.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

I couldnt tell from the interview whether the "numerous incidents" were of him being contacted about one class session or repeated class sessions centering around God being in the historical documents. I'd also like to know why he was discussing God being mentioned in these documents, whether it was on a single or numerous occassions. If it was just to answer the kids question about whether "God" is in them, I see no problem. But if he was taking the typical "God is in our historical documents, so that means the US is a Christian nation" stance, then there's a problem.

 

[OUMoose]

WILLIAMS: So I started to submit to her everything, and that's when I submitted to her one lesson plan. Then you've all heard the Declaration of Independence was banned, and it was. What I submitted was three documents: William Penn's, "The Frame of Government (search)," Samuel Adams, "The Rights of Colonists (search)," and the Declaration of Independence. My intent, as I explained to my principal, was to show where the wording from the Declaration of Independence comes from. And it came — you can see the wording in our founding documents.

Of course!! You can't show documents like that to children!! God (whoops, did i say that?) forbid some free thinking is fostered in this Abercrombie age of conformity!

The document is not about religion, nor the integration of church and state. It is about our country and the ideas its founded on. Now, if the teacher was forcing religious views in a non-parochial school, then he was in the wrong. As qizmoduis stated, there's probably some facts missing here. However, given the article in its current state, the school is most definitely in the wrong. History, whether it be relgious or otherwise, is important for people to know as it lets us know where we came from. Who was it that said "Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it"?

 

[Rich Parsons]

I see something very wrong when you ban the very documents our nation was founded upon over a stupid misunderstanding of the concept of seperation of church and state.

Its not the bible, its the damn founding principles of this country.

Utter insanity.

I agree with this, in particular since the U.S. Supreme Court has rulled that the Declaration of Indepenence is just that, and not a legal document for our laws and rules of operations for ths government, that would be the U.S. Constitution written years latter after the loose confederacy of the 13 states defeated the British enough to more be able to establish a more lasting document for guiding this country. In another thread this came up and I said that it should not be removed and it should be preserved as a part of history.

:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Many of us have discussed God in classrooms across the country for more than 20 years, and never gotten the slightest static about it. Funny.

Most likely, a) the principal's a bonehead; b) the teacher's a bonehead, who is doing this at the behest of some particular group.

I'd say it's a sad day when we allow adolescent screeching from the likes of Hannity and Colmes--these are entertainment programs, right?--to set national debates.

 

[Ping898]

I think half the problem is parents are quick to hear what they want to hear and then immediately complain. Be interesting to know what that kid told his parents after class, and if he told them exactly what happened, if all the really "heard" was the word God and went on the defensive.

 

[deadhand31]

I find this horribly abusive, and absurd. Is it honestly so wrong to tell children that the founding fathers had God included into our founding documents? Is it wrong to tell students, with full historical accuracy, that the founding fathers believed in God-given rights? People were much different back then. Our government has changed quite a bit. I think it's important to know where our government came from. Hell, one reason why people came over here was because they wanted to worship God their own way, instead of the king's way. What on earth are we telling kids about the pilgrims' voyage now???

 

[rmcrobertson]

In case anybody's interested in reality, the declaration says, "the laws of Nature of of Nature's God," and it talks about a, "Creator," but it most certainly says nothing about Christianity whatsoever.

And despite the recurrent fantasy, our so-called "founding fathers," were very far from being fundamentalists. Paine was an agnostic; Franklin...it's unclear; Washington and Adams Christian (but Adams' wife was a feminist); Jefferson and others Deists.

But this is the sort of discussion you get when you take anything that idiot Hannity says seriously. He is, as many have noted, essentially a teenage boy who gets paid enormous amounts of money to shoot his mouth off about topics of which he is utterly ignorant.

 

[Zepp]

The very fact that this story comes from anyone on Fox News already tells me that a large part of the actual story is missing. It'd be nice to hear about what really happened from a source of journalism.

 

[raedyn]

Is it honestly so wrong to tell children that the founding fathers had God included into our founding documents?

I really think it depends what point you are trying to make with it. To quote the God parts of the documents, out of context, no background, and use that to "prove" the US is "Christian nation" and therefore that determines what so-called "values" should be taught in school, and that we should all pray etc - that would be wrong in a public school (sez me. but not only me).

Is it wrong to tell students, with full historical accuracy, that the founding fathers believed in God-given rights? People were much different back then. Our government has changed quite a bit. I think it's important to know where our government came from. Hell, one reason why people came over here was because they wanted to worship God their own way, instead of the king's way.

But if it was being talked about in these contexts, and to say the America is intended to be a welcoming nation where its citizens can determine their beliefs about God for themselves - that would be an acceptable context. So here, I don't think that we have enough information to determine if these documents were being used appropriately.

 

[someguy]

I'm sure there is more to it than that. It wouldn't make sense for there not to be.
I'm to lazy to look into this at all at the moment. Or maybe it's that final I have in a bit.

 

[auxprix]

I couldnt tell from the interview whether the "numerous incidents" were of him being contacted about one class session or repeated class sessions centering around God being in the historical documents. I'd also like to know why he was discussing God being mentioned in these documents, whether it was on a single or numerous occassions. If it was just to answer the kids question about whether "God" is in them, I see no problem. But if he was taking the typical "God is in our historical documents, so that means the US is a Christian nation" stance, then there's a problem.

Agreed. I think that there has to be more story here. Whenever someones in trouble, they love to paint themselves as the innocent who got caught up in bureaucratic BS.

My guess is that the teacher has been pushing boundaries on this issue for a while, and the discussion was more than just "most pilgrims were christian." I certainly hope that this is a typical fox news fabrication. I'd like to hear a good counterpoint from the school.

 

[TonyM.]

On a similar note, back in the early eighties people went around door to door with a copy of the constitution asking people what they thought of it. Over forty per cent of the people polled thought it was some sort of communist doctrine and wanted nothing to do with it.

 

[Oak Bo]

That's some really sad stuff. I hope the teacher can get his job back.

 

[raedyn]

He didn't lose his job, they just placed restrictions on what materials he could bring into the classroom.

 

[qizmoduis]

It was exactly as I predicted.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200412090002

This kind of thing happens all the time in this country. An overzealous evangelizer gets out of control in school. He/she gets called on it. Right-wingers and other nutcases completely misrepresent it so that it looks like christians are being persecuted (which is a serious laugher). News organizations splash the nonsense all over the airwaves. The real truth comes out, but nobody hears about it, or cares, because the truth does nothing to reinforce their cherished beliefs of being persecuted underdogs, when in reality, they are the elite and the real oppressors.

Typical.