Buying rank

[Flying Crane]

Perhaps (bare with me here) it was meant as a compliment. (Albeit a back-handed & odd one) As in "you should be higher rank because you're at a higher skill level."

Just a thought.

That could be, but then again it comes with a price tag...

 

[Gemini]

Perhaps (bare with me here) it was meant as a compliment. (Albeit a back-handed & odd one) As in "you should be higher rank because you're at a higher skill level."

Just a thought.

Personnally, after reading all the posts, I think you may well be correct. I can't tell you how many times, having a Korean Master, we've unintentionally insulted each other due to nothing more than cultural differences. This isn't a traveling salesman in a plaid coat. It's an old associate. I can certainly see how you'd get bent over it, but try to look at it from the manner it was intended as opposed to the manner it was received. It can and often does change things. Believe me, I know.

 

[terryl965]

Personnally, after reading all the posts, I think you may well be correct. I can't tell you how many times, having a Korean Master, we've unintentionally insulted each other due to nothing more than cultural differences. This isn't a traveling salesman in a plaid coat. It's an old associate. I can certainly see how you'd get bent over it, but try to look at it from the manner it was intended as opposed to the manner it was received. It can and often does change things. Believe me, I know.

Gemini you and Iceman may be correct in your words of wisdom. I should always try to see the light before the night.
Terry

 

[tshadowchaser]

I am glad someone saw a positive in the offer to promote someone skipping grades for money. i know this has been done befor and will continue to be done but I personaly find it insulting. It is buying rank not testing up through the ranks.
The lady may be qualified for higher tank but that should be determined by her instructor or his (and we have heard from her instructor)
If someone in any organisation I belonged to was a first dan one day and a fifth the next I would consider that promotin a joke unless they had been a first for many many many years .
I do know of a school in my area where the instructors wife never tested in front of the school but would go to camp/seminars and pay good money then come back with a higher rank Her skill never improved but she strutted around more.

 

[Gemini]

I am glad someone saw a positive in the offer to promote someone skipping grades for money.

If you're referring to my post, I'm not offering this as a positive. I'm offering it as a possibility that things may not be what they appear, and the intent, though certainly insulting to us, was not meant to be so. Nothing more.

 

[MJS]

To my knowledge, this is not as offensive at it sounds. In Japan, there are two ways to get rank: (1) by technical testing in front of a grading committee, or (2) by recommendation. Option 1 is so very very very hard, for example, out of hundreds of people tested for 8th Dan in JKF-Wadokai last year, only one passed.

Option 2 will be given based on an individual's contribution to the ryuha/style and organizations and his time in grade. Off course the "contributions" could also means "financial". However, (if I am not mistaken), those who receive their high Dan rank through option 2 would still have to pass their 1st and 2nd Dan by actual testing through their sensei and/or through a grading committee, before they will be considered to receive their subsequent Dan levels through option 2. So option 2 is really just for 3rd dan and above.

Many people received their high Dan rank due to this option and it is not considered illegitimate in Japan.

There is also Option 3, which is "honorary" dank (Mei-yo Dan) given to people who gave a significant contribution to the growth of Wadokai in a country. But off course this is just "honorary" and the recipient cannot claim to possess the skill level of his honorary grade.

Off course I could be WAY OFF.. after all, TKD is Korean and Karate is Japanese.. maybe there are differences in culture which I don't understand..

Usually, high rank is often awarded after a significant time in grade and contribution to the art is put in. I took the original post as boricuatkd being offered high rank because it would make both the school look better as well as a better impression in the eyes of the students. Not a good thing IMO.

Mike

 

[MJS]

If someone in any organisation I belonged to was a first dan one day and a fifth the next I would consider that promotin a joke unless they had been a first for many many many years .

Exactly! Personally, I want to earn my rank, not have it handed to me.

I do know of a school in my area where the instructors wife never tested in front of the school but would go to camp/seminars and pay good money then come back with a higher rank Her skill never improved but she strutted around more.

And most likely, in the eyes of the students at that school, they probably thought that she was deserving of it and that she had great skill. As I said before, there's no short cut. If someone is a low rank and they have poor skill, I don't know what putting on a high rank will do for them. Either way, their skill level will still be low and it will show.

Mike

 

[Rich Parsons]

MR. Parson I myself is BoriauTKd teacher she is my wife for all of you and I for one do not hand out rank to anyone that is not deserving, but here is the funny thing the Master in question has never said anything to me about this, it is up setting to me. I have been in Ma for over forty years and never have been question about any of my BB. I would not give my wife or my Mother a Bb if they did not deserve it. She is a wonderful student of the Art just not the sport, I will have to have a talk with this other Master for even questioning anything in my school, I'm offended by his action.
Now for the record everbody who is anybody here on MT knows that BoriauTKD and Terryl 965 are husband and wife in are journey though life, she is everything to me as I'm to her.

Our journey is one for the after life as well soul mate to say in a better word.

TerryL965
AKA Master Terry Lee Stoker
AKA Terry
AKA Stay Puff
AKA GOD BLESS AMERICA

I believe that is all of my little ways of ending a statement.

Terry it is Rich.

It was not brought up in thread so I made a comment, that was nto meant to be a slight towards you ro your wife.

I think we are on the same page here.

 

[terryl965]

Terry it is Rich.

It was not brought up in thread so I made a comment, that was nto meant to be a slight towards you ro your wife.

I think we are on the same page here.

I do believe so sir (rich)
Terry

 

[beauty_in_the_sai]

I taught at red belt in my instructors class to make myself ready for black belt. And at black belt I taught ALOT! Whoever said this to you is pretty low and outspoken. It is very dishonorable and insulting to be a first degree and have an upper rank tell you you shouldn't be teaching. It almost begs the question as to wether he bought his rank or not. Ranks should be earned not bought. This is a horrible thing happening in all martial arts today and, frankly I find it disgusting. What could that rank really mean to you if you just bought it? I'm very glad you weren't even tempted by his offer. If I was you, I would've recoiled at him in shock and disgust. I've never seen this happen in TKD, but my instructor would sooner jump into a lake filled with crocodiles then let someone buy a rank off him. Don't be insulted by someone who suggests such a thing to you.

Becky

 

[Fluffy]

Well after reading all the posts I want to point a couple issues out.

A) There has alway been some type of barter attatched to passing on knowlege, testing for higher rank unfortunetly is tied as well thru most systems.

B) The rank recognised thru most systems as "elligible" for instructor status is 3rd Dan. I believe the WTF is 4th Dan. I know a couple 2nd Dans who asked to open a school and were denied because of their rank.

C) As long as it was not and quick advancement, and more of a place for advancement........I do not see the problem. You need the time in rank, you need to be able to do the required techniques, you need a way to advance in rank.

These are just thoughts I had reading through this thread, I do not really know anything about any of you, I'm sure you have all earned your rank. I have a basic rule of thumb for advancement, one year per degree (dan). Meaning 1st degree, one year constant training, 2nd degree, two years constant training, 3rd degree three years constant training......and on. I think the WTF is the same way, and I may be wrong....yet again.

For me.....I spent 1 year between 1st and 2nd, 3 year between 2nd and 3rd, 7 years between 3rd and 4th, and 5 years between 4th and 5th.....so you can see the time in rank is a minumum, and not an end all.

For those who sell rank......they need to read up on the tennents of TKD.

 

[FearlessFreep]

The rank recognised thru most systems as "elligible" for instructor status is 3rd Dan. I believe the WTF is 4th Dan. I know a couple 2nd Dans who asked to open a school and were denied because of their rank.

Ironically, I trained under a 2nd Dan (who was not WTF formally) who had such high standards that when I went to a new school as 4th gup I tested up to 3rd gup in a month een though I was three months short at time-at-belt to test for 3rd gup under my prior instructor. Not that the new place was easy but my first instructor had been very demanding

 

[terryl965]

Well I have a different approach about "RANK", you can not and will not test at my school if you can not explain the principle behind every tech. that you have learn through me. I.E. I'm talking about adults only, if you are a true student of the "ART" not the sport you have to understand each and every movement to the tech, just not preform them.
Terry

 

[TigerWoman]

We are WTF. I believe that a black belt is an instructor in his school and is "in training" until the 4th dan test, at least that is how it was explained by the master/owner of my school. As such, a black belt can open a school under the master's auspices and conduct classes therefore is an instructor and can collect student tuition. I know of several of our student black belts that do that and some pay their own expenses therefore the tuition is theirs. But in other satellite schools, the master teaches one day of the week and the lst black belts the other days. There is a split there. But when testing comes, all students come to the home school and pay the master for testing fees. Those are not split. I think this is right since he has, after all, trained all of us and until we become masters, we are still in training. Though when someone gets to master, 4th dan as only one I've seen, he goes on his own and opens his own separate school. BTW, I'm a 2nd dan. TW

 

[Fluffy]

Well I have a different approach about "RANK", you can not and will not test at my school if you can not explain the principle behind every tech. that you have learn through me. I.E. I'm talking about adults only, if you are a true student of the "ART" not the sport you have to understand each and every movement to the tech, just not preform them.
Terry

When you say "adults only" do you mean just for the test, or do you not have children at your school?

 

[terryl965]

When you say "adults only" do you mean just for the test, or do you not have children at your school?

Yes we have childern at the school but them being able to fully understand every technique is well asking a child to be in college at that age, one in a million will be able to dao that. Now when they test for there adult BB they have got to know every movement.
Terry

 

[Fluffy]

Yes we have childern at the school but them being able to fully understand every technique is well asking a child to be in college at that age, one in a million will be able to dao that. Now when they test for there adult BB they have got to know every movement.
Terry

Interesting, and you promote them with the adults?

 

[terryl965]

Interesting, and you promote them with the adults?

No they are pooms and they test with the childern, the adults test with aduls only.
Master Fluffy you do relize that Kukiwon childern that obtain BB are pooms until they reach a certain age and than can file for there Dan rank with the Kukkiwon, well at my school they need to re-test for there adult BB at that time.
I understand the ITF promote childern are they with the adult class, I would imagine not and I know the ATA does not promote childern with adults, they test seperately. I hope I have explain well enough for you sir.
Master Stoker

 

[Fluffy]

Both the ATA and ITF promote children as black belts as per the Generals wishes......I've heard of poom belts but it has never been explained to me.

Check out the ATA at www.ATAonline.com

Then you go ahead and promote children up to Shodan with the adults? (a child green belt is an adult green belt)

Please excuse my ignorance here, I have never studied under the WTF....just don't understand the set rules for you guys. And in no way am I trying to make this that old (should children be Black Belts) debate.

 

[terryl965]

Both the ATA and ITF promote children as black belts as per the Generals wishes......I've heard of poom belts but it has never been explained to me.

Check out the ATA at www.ATAonline.com

Then you go ahead and promote children up to Shodan with the adults? (a child green belt is an adult green belt)

Please excuse my ignorance here, I have never studied under the WTF....just don't understand the set rules for you guys. And in no way am I trying to make this that old (should children be Black Belts) debate.

It is quite alright we all are here to learn and widen are herizon. I'm glad to discuss every aspect of the Art. I'm only here to promote the Arts not to disrupt them. I have the opmost respect for all MA'ers and you have been very forth right in your question, I'm mearly trying to explain the best as I can through a chat line.
Consameda
Terry