Buying rank

[boricuatkd]

Ok everyone bear with me- this maybe a little long. But I sort of need to vent. :miffer:
All right for the last couple of weeks I have been stewing over something that was brought to my attention by an acquaintance of my other half that really threw me for a total loop. And to be quite honest, offended me to some extent. To put this in retrospect, my offender is actually a master in tkd (olympic).
The gentleman comes by from time to time to visit and share with my other half regarding new tkd news. During his last visit a couple of weeks ago, he inquired whether or not I had an equal interest in our martial arts school. When I informed him that I did and that I actually helped in teaching and even in running our summer camp programs he almost recoiled from me in shock.
He then proceded to tell me that at my age I really needed to be higher than a first if I was going to be taken seriously as an instructor at our school. That at my current rank I really should not have a "hands-on" in the instruction of our students because it would not help in making our school look legit. On top of it all, he proceded to advice me to convince my husband to hook up with one of the local grand masters who could accommodate my situation by skipping me to respectful rank for my age for a reasonable price and a percentage of our student fees. Oh it would all be done through the Kukkiwon of coarse. Now I know that this does happen through out the tkd circle from time to time. But what really bothered me was the fact that he actually felt I was not qualified in teaching our students. Now, I have been to "respected" tkd schools in our area and all of them have 1st and 2nd dans teaching classes. Is there some rule that I am not aware of that prohibits lower ranking black belts fro teaching? To be honest I may only be a 1st, but I am very knowlegable that several higher ranking bbs that I know. I am a true student of my art - learning all that I can and passing that onto our students.

 

[Lisa]

Ummm... OMG!

Boricuatkd, I don't study TKD but umm... I am shocked at his comments and appalled at his odacity! Exactly what is wrong with your rank at your age? Does hard work and perseverence not say anything?

I certainly hope you "recoiled" at his offer! What he did/said is repulsive and is one of the reasons that Martial Arts have a bad name in this day and age.

 

[IcemanSK]

I wish I could be as shocked as Lisa. I've heard of this & similiar things. (Just ask Terry1965)

There's nothing wrong w/ your rank at your age (what ever either is). I'm glad, too, that his offer bothers you. Although, I would admit that it may tempt me.

What were your husband's thoughts?

 

[Rich Parsons]

Ok everyone bear with me- this maybe a little long. But I sort of need to vent. :miffer:
All right for the last couple of weeks I have been stewing over something that was brought to my attention by an acquaintance of my other half that really threw me for a total loop. And to be quite honest, offended me to some extent. To put this in retrospect, my offender is actually a master in tkd (olympic).
The gentleman comes by from time to time to visit and share with my other half regarding new tkd news. During his last visit a couple of weeks ago, he inquired whether or not I had an equal interest in our martial arts school. When I informed him that I did and that I actually helped in teaching and even in running our summer camp programs he almost recoiled from me in shock.
He then proceded to tell me that at my age I really needed to be higher than a first if I was going to be taken seriously as an instructor at our school. That at my current rank I really should not have a "hands-on" in the instruction of our students because it would not help in making our school look legit. On top of it all, he proceded to advice me to convince my husband to hook up with one of the local grand masters who could accommodate my situation by skipping me to respectful rank for my age for a reasonable price and a percentage of our student fees. Oh it would all be done through the Kukkiwon of coarse. Now I know that this does happen through out the tkd circle from time to time. But what really bothered me was the fact that he actually felt I was not qualified in teaching our students. Now, I have been to "respected" tkd schools in our area and all of them have 1st and 2nd dans teaching classes. Is there some rule that I am not aware of that prohibits lower ranking black belts fro teaching? To be honest I may only be a 1st, but I am very knowlegable that several higher ranking bbs that I know. I am a true student of my art - learning all that I can and passing that onto our students.

Well, my reaction is that this is politics and one of the reasons I did not join the KMA's, when I was old enough and out of my house, as my parents did not want me to study. I had friends who had these issues in TKD. Later I learned almost all systems have issues like this.

Does that make it right? No, so you have to walk the path that is best for you.

Who is you teacher now? I assume your other half as you put it. Are they respected, and currently involved with an organization? If so, then stick with that, and keep yourself to yourself. In my opinion it is better to be considered a good 1st then a poor 2nd. Of course I am not saying you would make a poor second, as I have not met you at all.

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Oh, I hear this argument all the time--"I need to be promoted to be respected by my students." My thought is, that tells me all I need to know about the person who says it...

 

[MartialIntent]

boricuatkd, this is real underhand but it's classic sales technique ie. this guy needs you to feel a certain way [doubting your own abilities] just to ensure he can close the sale - and it's working too!

fwiw, I say, put your doubts aside and treat this like any other cold-calling sales person - close the door [or hang up].

Good luck!

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I hate to say it, but it's almost par for the course. Back in the 1980's I was offered a accelerated training and promotion to second or third dan in an art where I was a low brown belt - provided I taught classes gratis. Of course I declined (and later left the system) and the new school never opened.

You have nothing to be concerned about as a first dan instructing in a Dojang under the mgmt. of a higher rank. Heck, your ITF (?) first dan is worth at least a second or third from most commercial TKD schools (I won't mention the McDojang associations, but you know which ones I mean).

 

[Jade Tigress]

boricuatkd, this is real underhand but it's classic sales technique ie. this guy needs you to feel a certain way [doubting your own abilities] just to ensure he can close the sale - and it's working too!

fwiw, I say, put your doubts aside and treat this like any other cold-calling sales person - close the door [or hang up].

Good luck!

I agree 100%. You have earned your rank and are qualified and knowledgeable. You may go to other schools and see higher ranks teaching but you don't know if the rank was earned or bought. I'd rather learn from someone who really knows what they're doing than have someone who bought a rank try and teach me. Tell this "master" not to let the door hit him on the way out.

 

[MJS]

Ok everyone bear with me- this maybe a little long. But I sort of need to vent. :miffer:
All right for the last couple of weeks I have been stewing over something that was brought to my attention by an acquaintance of my other half that really threw me for a total loop. And to be quite honest, offended me to some extent. To put this in retrospect, my offender is actually a master in tkd (olympic).
The gentleman comes by from time to time to visit and share with my other half regarding new tkd news. During his last visit a couple of weeks ago, he inquired whether or not I had an equal interest in our martial arts school. When I informed him that I did and that I actually helped in teaching and even in running our summer camp programs he almost recoiled from me in shock.
He then proceded to tell me that at my age I really needed to be higher than a first if I was going to be taken seriously as an instructor at our school. That at my current rank I really should not have a "hands-on" in the instruction of our students because it would not help in making our school look legit. On top of it all, he proceded to advice me to convince my husband to hook up with one of the local grand masters who could accommodate my situation by skipping me to respectful rank for my age for a reasonable price and a percentage of our student fees. Oh it would all be done through the Kukkiwon of coarse. Now I know that this does happen through out the tkd circle from time to time. But what really bothered me was the fact that he actually felt I was not qualified in teaching our students. Now, I have been to "respected" tkd schools in our area and all of them have 1st and 2nd dans teaching classes. Is there some rule that I am not aware of that prohibits lower ranking black belts fro teaching? To be honest I may only be a 1st, but I am very knowlegable that several higher ranking bbs that I know. I am a true student of my art - learning all that I can and passing that onto our students.

IMHO, this person does not seem to be very knowledgeable. What he is failing to see, is that its not going to matter what rank someone is, if they themselves do not have a good understanding of the art, the material, application of the material, then all the rank in the world is not going to matter. Do people look at a high ranked person and think, "WOW! This guy is a "X" degree Black Belt. He must really know his stuff! I want to train under him!!" All the time. Unfortunately, as I said, these people that say that, fall into that high rank trap.

As for not being able to teach because of being a low ranked BB. Again, rank is not what teaches someone, its skill and knowledge! To think that you won't be able to learn from someone because they are a 1st degree is crazy.


My advice: Stay clear of this person and anyone that has his thinking. Keep training hard, learn the material, go at your own pace and earn rank the way it should be earned...with lots of sweat and hard work!!

Mike

 

[terryl965]

I wish I could be as shocked as Lisa. I've heard of this & similiar things. (Just ask Terry1965)

There's nothing wrong w/ your rank at your age (what ever either is). I'm glad, too, that his offer bothers you. Although, I would admit that it may tempt me.

What were your husband's thoughts?

IcemanSK I'am her better half and I told her not to worry about him. When she is ready for her second I will test her with some other friends of mine until then she is going to teach at my school becouse it is our school.
Terry

 

[terryl965]

Well, my reaction is that this is politics and one of the reasons I did not join the KMA's, when I was old enough and out of my house, as my parents did not want me to study. I had friends who had these issues in TKD. Later I learned almost all systems have issues like this.

Does that make it right? No, so you have to walk the path that is best for you.

Who is you teacher now? I assume your other half as you put it. Are they respected, and currently involved with an organization? If so, then stick with that, and keep yourself to yourself. In my opinion it is better to be considered a good 1st then a poor 2nd. Of course I am not saying you would make a poor second, as I have not met you at all.


:asian:

MR. Parson I myself is BoriauTKd teacher she is my wife for all of you and I for one do not hand out rank to anyone that is not deserving, but here is the funny thing the Master in question has never said anything to me about this, it is up setting to me. I have been in Ma for over forty years and never have been question about any of my BB. I would not give my wife or my Mother a Bb if they did not deserve it. She is a wonderful student of the Art just not the sport, I will have to have a talk with this other Master for even questioning anything in my school, I'm offended by his action.
Now for the record everbody who is anybody here on MT knows that BoriauTKD and Terryl 965 are husband and wife in are journey though life, she is everything to me as I'm to her.

Our journey is one for the after life as well soul mate to say in a better word.

TerryL965
AKA Master Terry Lee Stoker
AKA Terry
AKA Stay Puff
AKA GOD BLESS AMERICA

I believe that is all of my little ways of ending a statement.

 

[green meanie]

I don't study TKD either but I think this situation is sucky no matter what art you're in. Just keep doing what you're doing, boricuatkd. It sounds like you and terryl965 have a good thing going there.

 

[arnisador]

I've seen it tried in academics too--"I need to be promoted to associate prof. early to be respected by the people I work with in industry."

 

[TigerWoman]

IMO, that "master" just demoted himself all the way to white belt. Start over with the tenets sir! How about integrity? Well, I know that your school and master, Master Stoker has that. We in TKD need more of these type of schools and zero of the others who allow politics and "buying" of rank. He should be reported to the WTF. Isn't the new governing body trying to clean some of this up? All black belts are instructors BTW. That's how instructors are trained until at master you form your own school. TW

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh, I hear this argument all the time--"I need to be promoted to be respected by my students." My thought is, that tells me all I need to know about the person who says it...

Of course if your students already respect you, of what need is the promotion?

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

Ok everyone bear with me- this maybe a little long. But ITo put this in retrospect, my offender is actually a master in tkd (olympic).
The gentleman comes by from time to time to visit and share with my other half regarding new tkd news. During his last visit a couple of weeks ago, he inquired whether or not I had an equal interest in our martial arts school. When I informed him that I did and that I actually helped in teaching and even in running our summer camp programs he almost recoiled from me in shock.
He then proceded to tell me that at my age I really needed to be higher than a first if I was going to be taken seriously as an instructor at our school. On top of it all, he proceded to advice me to convince my husband to hook up with one of the local grand masters who could accommodate my situation by skipping me to respectful rank for my age for a reasonable price and a percentage of our student fees. Oh it would all be done through the Kukkiwon of coarse.

To my knowledge, this is not as offensive at it sounds. In Japan, there are two ways to get rank: (1) by technical testing in front of a grading committee, or (2) by recommendation. Option 1 is so very very very hard, for example, out of hundreds of people tested for 8th Dan in JKF-Wadokai last year, only one passed.

Option 2 will be given based on an individual's contribution to the ryuha/style and organizations and his time in grade. Off course the "contributions" could also means "financial". However, (if I am not mistaken), those who receive their high Dan rank through option 2 would still have to pass their 1st and 2nd Dan by actual testing through their sensei and/or through a grading committee, before they will be considered to receive their subsequent Dan levels through option 2. So option 2 is really just for 3rd dan and above.

Many people received their high Dan rank due to this option and it is not considered illegitimate in Japan.

There is also Option 3, which is "honorary" dank (Mei-yo Dan) given to people who gave a significant contribution to the growth of Wadokai in a country. But off course this is just "honorary" and the recipient cannot claim to possess the skill level of his honorary grade.

Off course I could be WAY OFF.. after all, TKD is Korean and Karate is Japanese.. maybe there are differences in culture which I don't understand..

 

[IcemanSK]

IcemanSK I'am her better half and I told her not to worry about him. When she is ready for her second I will test her with some other friends of mine until then she is going to teach at my school becouse it is our school.
Terry

Wow Terry, you seem to be a magnet for folks wanting to do an end-around-rank thing, lately. Huh?

I have no doubt that she is the rank she needs to be & promotion will come in time. Lord knows high rank doesn't mean someone teaches better.

 

[terryl965]

Wow Terry, you seem to be a magnet for folks wanting to do an end-around-rank thing, lately. Huh?

I have no doubt that she is the rank she needs to be & promotion will come in time. Lord knows high rank doesn't mean someone teaches better.

That is because until I tested last December 2004 I did not test for since 1985, now everybody is saying since I have the time in I should just be at my rightful place with all the others.
Not to sound arrogant or anything but the rank thing does not brother me as much as it does for everybody else. At my level I can get my students Kukkiwon if they want without anybody else and that is what matters to me.

It does disturb me about this guy saying anything about my student(wife), as he knows she has been training longer than alot of people who are already a third, we try to make everyone complete before giving rank the techniques come before rank in my eye's.
Terry

 

[boricuatkd]

I really appreciate everyone's comments. Just to be clear, I wasn't really doubting my abilities as much as being angry at his approaching this with me. The person in question has known us since we opened our school, seen me train, seen me teach, spar, and even compete.Then for him to turn around and say these things to me after all this time just ticked me off royally. The what was worse that he discusses the topic when my other half not even around. Our acquaintance argument is that its what you need to do because tkd is now a commercial art. Can you belive that? TKD a commercial art. But then again I have come across some instructors that claim to be masters. After meeting their grand masters I find out that 2 of them never even passed their black belt tests. Go figure.

 

[IcemanSK]

Perhaps (bare with me here) it was meant as a compliment. (Albeit a back-handed & odd one) As in "you should be higher rank because you're at a higher skill level."

Just a thought.