Buy your way to Heaven! The Catholic Church brings back indulgences!

[ballen0351]

I don't care what they buy.

but if anybody other than the church would be offering said 'deal' you in your capacity as LEO would be involved.

How so? Its not illegal to donate money
from the NY Times article:
You cannot buy one — the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1567 — but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one.

 

[Makalakumu]

When is the line crossed by religious beliefs and most people consider them to be unreasonable?

 

[ballen0351]

When is the line crossed by religious beliefs and most people consider them to be unreasonable?

When it effects others but donating money does not effect anyone else.

 

[Tez3]

When is the line crossed by religious beliefs and most people consider them to be unreasonable?

I think in this case it only affects practising Catholics and like most things it's up to them what they think and do about it. I'm sure if they don't agree they won't pay, if they do it's not really the concern of anyone else. Is it unreasonable? I don't know and being honest I won't spend anytime worrying or even thinking about it, it's a Roman Catholic concern, doesn't effect anyone else, certainly not me so I'm not going to say it's either reasonable or unreasonable. Live and let live.

 

[Makalakumu]

Live and let live.

Sure. Spend your money on whatever you want. If it doesn't hurt me, I don't care.

But does it affect you?

The Catholic religion is very popular in Central and South America and the United States has been fighting a Drug War with various criminal groups in these areas for a long time. Couldn't one of these king pins ramp up their business and kill a lot more people with the absurdness that they would go to heaven as long as they of balanced it with money and some community service?

Of course I don't believe the "drug war" is beneficial to society, nor do I believe in any religion. Therefore, my response is contrived and should be viewed within that context.

 

[elder999]

I think in this case it only affects practising Catholics and like most things it's up to them what they think and do about it. I'm sure if they don't agree they won't pay, if they do it's not really the concern of anyone else. Is it unreasonable? I don't know and being honest I won't spend anytime worrying or even thinking about it, it's a Roman Catholic concern, doesn't effect anyone else, certainly not me so I'm not going to say it's either reasonable or unreasonable. Live and let live.

It's certainly nothing compared to Scientology, where the charges for the top 8 levels of "clear" are hundreds of thousands of dollars. Tom Cruise is an OT VI-whatever the **** that means-and it probably cost him the better part of half a million dollars to get there form OT V-whatever the **** that means. :lfao:

Money, while "a root of all evil," is also our social medium of exchange-the collection plate gets passed at churches, from the poorest to the wealthiest, and people drop money in it. I know, for a short part of my childhood, that collection plate paid my daddy's salary. Lots of people tithe-donate a tenth of their income to their church-we do, though it's a little more complicated than that, since Rita-that's the wife-is a Quaker, and I'm something else altogether.

Speaking of that "something else," though-I've been to the homes of Navajo roadmen and medicine men who had a price list on the back of their front door for various ceremonies. Anthony Davis-a Comanche/Pawnee man, one of my mentors in the Native American Church, and the inspiration for that handle (elder999 :lol: ) I go by, didn't believe in taking money, and wouldn't (and I'll tell my very last Anthony story in a moment) but thought a great deal of one of my very favorite roadmen, because he ran my first peyote meeting, the Navajo, Gerry Ettcity, who always takes a fee for running a ceremony-sometimes even a truck or medical procedure. :lfao:

Here's Anthony - "White Thunder," (on the winter day in 1911, when he was born in Pawnee, Oklahoma, there was a thunderstorm, with snow, so that was his name) talking about race, in a movie (made by some posers, but still)-he died a while back, at 94, and I miss my friend very much:

The last meeting I went to that Anthony ran was in El Paso, Texas. He'd run a ceremony for a woman down there who had cancer-shortly after the ceremony, she went back to the doctors and the growths they'd found were all gone-it happens sometimes-they call it "ideopathic"-which, just like in the case of the scarring of my lungs, means they have no idea what caused it.:lfao: She offered to sponsor a meeting for Anthony to thank him for her healing, and he said:No, daughter-I'll run that meeting for you, and you can thank The One who did the healing. So a ninety some odd year old man traveled hundreds of miles to sit up praying-literally all night-at no charge.It was kind of awesome-those people down there, almost all Hispanic, were almost all terrified of him: he was really fierce-and he was in fine form, wearing his white bucksin outfit and singing just like he was famous for it-'cause he was-it was good to see him that way. Shortly after my first Sundance, he took my eagle feathers and made a fan for me-an Anthony Davis fan is something of a prize, even if its made of macaw feathers, never mind eagle or red tailed hawk-and he didn't charge me a dime. You can see some of Anthony's fans here, in another documentary with a part about him.

God, I miss him.

My dad would marry people-it was his part of his job, and a perfectly good way to screw up a Saturday, especially if you were a 12 year old boy tapped to play acolyte for Mass, if they had one. He'd take whatever the couple offered, afterward-there was no charge, but he certainly didn't turn away a "donation," and I can remember once going home with $20 myself...:lfao:

Miss my dad, too-of course.....

So the Catholic church takes money. Big deal. They're certainly not going to get any of mine, or John's, and if it offers some comfort and order to those that do give, what of it?

 

[Makalakumu]

When it effects others but donating money does not effect anyone else.

Well, what if a grown man still believed in Santa Claus? What if they made a fool of themselves giving the postman a letter addressed to the North Pole with all of their wants and dreams written upon it? What other irrational things might this person believe because this irrational belief was never challenged?

 

[Makalakumu]

So the Catholic church takes money. Big deal. They're certainly not going to get any of mine, or John's, and if it offers some comfort and order to those that do give, what of it?

Thank you for your story, I really appreciate reading it. I also appreciate the thought you put into picking your videos. Very appropriate.

That said, what of it?

In essence, by not challenging this, aren't we acknowledging multiple standards for truth? Aren't we able to have a slow and rational conversation about these things? And, if you're Catholic (of which I am no longer, but I was born and raised Catholic and completed a few sacraments) do you have any reservations about this? Judging from my sharing on social media of this same story, a lot of my family seems to think this is highly controversial.

 

[elder999]

Well, what if a grown man still believed in Santa Claus? What if they made a fool of themselves giving the postman a letter addressed to the North Pole with all of their wants and dreams written upon it?

The postal service would deliver it. He'd think Santa got it.

Maybe Santa would....:lol:

What other irrational things might this person believe because this irrational belief was never challenged?

World peace?

The inherent goodness of man? :lol:

The supremacy of the scientific method, and knowledge gained thereby? :lfao:

 

[elder999]

In essence, by not challenging this, aren't we acknowledging multiple standards for truth?

"Truth" is relative. There are multiple standards for "truth."

Once again, I offer the "68 degree rule.":

At John 18:37, 38 we find this interchange of words between Jesus and Pontius Pilate (which started when Jesus was on trial):
Pilate: ‘You aren’t a king, are you?’
Jesus: ‘You are saying that I’m a king. This is why I was born and why I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who is on the side of truth listens to my voice.’
Pilate: ‘What is truth?’


What is truth?

I’m in a room at 68 degrees Fahrenheit-that’s a fact.

I say “It’s cold in here,” which, for me, is the truth.

My co worker gets up from his chair sweating, walks right over to the thermostat, turns it down even more and says, “It’s too hot in here,” which, for him, is the truth.

And there we have it: one fact, two truths, all valid.

I’ve found-as a former Christian- former seminarian, son, grandson and great- grandson of ministers who has studied most of the world’s greater religious scriptures, and several different versions of the Bible-and I’m a person with a deep love and respect for the teachings of the rabbi Yeshua, “faith” (or lack thereof) notwithstanding--that all the religious scriptures of the world contain much beauty and truth,

Facts, however, are…..well, up for discussion, if not often dubious.

 

[Makalakumu]

"Truth" is relative. There are multiple standards for "truth."

Once again, I offer the "68 degree rule.":

Well, ****, what I offer is a good idea.

I would pay a small amount of money to ensure my path into Heaven, because, I might be wrong. The Catholic Church needs to offer plans that target this greater majority of folks that are convinced that everyone else's beliefs are ********, but doubt their own belief system at the same time.

I think you might be surprised how many people would make micro-oh **** it's true-donations.

 

[granfire]

How so? Its not illegal to donate money
from the NY Times article:
You cannot buy one — the church outlawed the sale of indulgences in 1567 — but charitable contributions, combined with other acts, can help you earn one.

DONATE, no.
But being parted from your hard earned money for the promise of something that is either non existent or - in this case - rather vague and arguably not in the hands of the recipients of the funds.
I think that is pretty much the essence of a con.
As I understand the premise of doing good stuff - like donate and do good things - has always been considered means to fill in some potholes on the road to heaven.
But this seems like they are abandoning the round about way, or rather adding the more direct way (if only to their coffers).

But hey. Two years ago my Father in law had a bout with colon cancer. It wasn't smooth sailing though he was lucky that they did not have to do chemo or radiation. he seems to think he cheated death and found religion....now every time I leave him alone with my husband he is starting something about the book of revelations and how this TV preacher he sends money to is oh so good (I have never heard him go on about it though).
I am personally floored that the man who always made fun of his wife's church things....falling for the TV preacher con...

 

[ballen0351]

Is it a con? If it helped him and gave him hope and the will to fight on then to me thats not a con. It gave him something to believe in during hisbtine of need and at the very least even if you dont believe in the power of praywr it helped keep his spirit up which is a big thing in medicine. I give money to my church not because i think it will help my path to heaven but because the church uaes that money to help others. No different then my donations to Wounded Warrior and St Judes hospital.

 

[ballen0351]

Also as i read up on this your not donating directly to the church for the indulgences your just donating to a charoty you cant directly buy an indulgence thats not allowed by the church.

 

[ballen0351]

Again i ask why do you care if a grown man believes in Santa? How does that effect you? How does it effect man kind in general if steve jones 45 year old from Macon Ga still believes in Santa? Or if he believws Elvis is alive or Area 51 has space aliens or Big Foot roams the pacific northwest. Or if i have a ghost in my house. Why do you care?

Well, what if a grown man s

till believed in Santa Claus? What if they made a fool of themselves giving the postman a letter addressed to the North Pole with all of their wants and dreams written upon it? What other irrational things might this person believe because this irrational belief was never challenged?

 

[Empty Hands]

Again i ask why do you care if a grown man believes in Santa? How does that effect you? How does it effect man kind in general if steve jones 45 year old from Macon Ga still believes in Santa? Or if he believws Elvis is alive or Area 51 has space aliens or Big Foot roams the pacific northwest. Or if i have a ghost in my house. Why do you care?

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

 

[ballen0351]

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

The last time I checked the only atrocities commited by Santa were not bringing me that bike I wanted when I was 6.

 

[Tez3]

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire

Nobody however is making anyone believe anything, people will always believe what they wish. No one makes people believe in UFOs etc, probably quite the opposite as most people will scoff at you if you say they exist.

The idea of drug lords or any criminal carrying on their 'trade' in the belief they will be forgiven is laughable, if they were in any way Christian they wouldn't be doing in the first place! I doubt they care whether they think they are going to hell or not.

It's the love of money that is the root of all evil, not money itself.

 

[granfire]

Is it a con? If it helped him and gave him hope and the will to fight on then to me thats not a con. It gave him something to believe in during hisbtine of need and at the very least even if you dont believe in the power of praywr it helped keep his spirit up which is a big thing in medicine. I give money to my church not because i think it will help my path to heaven but because the church uaes that money to help others. No different then my donations to Wounded Warrior and St Judes hospital.

yeah, it's different.

You 'donate' to the church directly, you buy the head guy a new silk robe, in the addition to the hundreds he already has.

You donate to wounded warrior or St Jude's you buy somebody services they don't already have a lot of.

But, as i said. you bills are paid, your kids and pets are fed, it's up to you if you want to buy a lottery ticket or absolution from the church.

And yes, Voltaire was not too far off. the history's dark points are preceded my some con-artist brainwashing the masses to do their evil bidding.

 

[Makalakumu]

The idea of drug lords or any criminal carrying on their 'trade' in the belief they will be forgiven is laughable...

It's not laughable, it's historical. When Indulgences could be bought back in Martin Luther's time, all kinds of hideous men, who happened to have money, bought one way tickets into Heaven. Why shouldn't we expect that again?

That said, I think the essence of what many posters are saying is that we need to leave people alone who believe unreasonable things if those beliefs hurt no one. Is it impolite to criticize people's unreasonable beliefs? If so, how far are we willing to extend that concept?