But...Couldn't You Really Hurt Them?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Look you do need to be aware of the law and self defense in your area, it is something you need to put some study into.

We have access to a lawyer who specialises in self defense and the law, we have had him in for a seminar on the subject.

We will show a techniquer and if it is one that could set up legal trou8ble, we tell you but you still learn it.

We teach that you cant continuly stomp on someone when you have them down, unless they are still trying to hurt you or pull you down with them, if they are just guarding their head and trying to get away, you have to stop do to the law.

If you take a robbers gun, you can't shot him unless he counter attacks you or trys to grab the weapon.

All this said legality can't be your first concern in a violent assult because some of what some laws say are derctly antagonistic with survival.

I live in a state that slants towards the victum, I could never live in a place that was otherwise. I know many of you do so legality takes a bgger place with you on this subject.

Sorry, I wont live anywhere where a mother takes her kids into the basement because of an intruder. The intruder follows them down there, she grabs her husband's hunting rifle and warns the attacker to go away. He does not so she shoots him.

She gets charged because there was a window in the basement, so she did not fully follow her responsability to flee in the face of danger.

Any State like that deserves a revolution as a basic, human right is being denied good people to the advantage of the scumbags who victumize and the politicol scumbags who seek to control us.

 

[sgtmac_46]

So, I'm surfing the forums the other day, and came across this post. The person, who is a martial artist, was talking about something that he encountered. He was telling a story about how a female was mugged in the area in which they park their cars, I assume in the area in which they all work. He's talking with a female co-worker, who was nervous about walking to her car.

He said he was giving her some advice, ie: be aware, walk with keys in hand, and to use the keys, should someone attempt to mug her. He said her response to this was, "Well, I suppose I could throw the keys at his face and run." Needless to say, he was shocked at this reply, and told her that she may be better off using the keys to strike, towards the face.

Her next reply to that, really shocked him. She says, "Isn't that kind of dirty? I mean, you could really hurt the guy."

So, this brings me to the question: Why is it that when someone is trying to cause you serious bodily harm, that you suddenly become compasionate towards them, and dont want to fight back? You're suddenly concerned that what you do to them may hurt them.

Now, yes, we have all heard the, "Just comply, do what they ask, and they wont hurt you" speech, which, IMO, is BS, but whatever. We've heard the stories of the badguy, sueing the victim for injuries, which IMO, is also BS. I just can't seem to understand why, if some punk is trying to attack a woman, rape her, etc., that the thought of hurting this guy, enough to hopefully get the hell out of there, is such a difficult thing.

That's why sheep are usually victims who aren't capable of harming others except by accident.

It's job security for me, though, because when push comes to shove, they rely on folks like me to do the dirty work of dealing with the animals......and I don't mind a bit dealing with the animals.

 

[WC_lun]

I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but I see threads like this and always wonder how many people who offer advice have ever been in a true slef-defense situation. It seems generally the more violent the advice is, the less real world experience has been had. The first job of self-defense is to get out of the situation taking the least amount of damage as possible. Period. If the attacker gets hurt in the process that sometimes happens. To focus on what harm you are going to do to them instead of getting your butt out of the sitauation in one piece is not realistic and as often as not will lead to you getting hurt, in my opinion.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but I see threads like this and always wonder how many people who offer advice have ever been in a true slef-defense situation. It seems generally the more violent the advice is, the less real world experience has been had. The first job of self-defense is to get out of the situation taking the least amount of damage as possible. Period. If the attacker gets hurt in the process that sometimes happens. To focus on what harm you are going to do to them instead of getting your butt out of the sitauation in one piece is not realistic and as often as not will lead to you getting hurt, in my opinion.

The difference you perceive is one of worldview. My job isn't to retreat from violence. My job is to overcome violence and subdue a violent individual using whatever level of greater violence is necessary. The degree of which the subject is harmed is entirely up to him, and is reflected in his resistance to my attempt to control him, up to and including his death. I don't rationalize what happens to him as my fault, as it is entirely his fault. All he has to do is quit fighting, quit resisting, and comply.

What seems to be true to you is actually the dichotomy between the 'survive at any cost' self defense folks, and the 'overcome at any cost' self defense folks. I'm firmly in the latter camp of dominate and control, with greater violence, because it is a necessity of the job.


That's not really the point here, however..........the point is the fact that a lack of willingness to harm another person is a huge impediment to self-defense. Simple willingness to engage in aggressive violence, under the right conditions, is a huge ADVANTAGE. Simply relying on the Nike method will work, the majority of the time, but it's hugely limiting, and lacks a Plan B when your run out of space. There are times with aggression will save you where caution will not.

 

[aedrasteia]

Sorry, I wont live anywhere where a mother takes her kids into the basement because of an intruder. The intruder follows them down there, she grabs her husband's hunting rifle and warns the attacker to go away. He does not so she shoots him.

She gets charged because there was a window in the basement, so she did not fully follow her responsability to flee in the face of danger.

Citation? what state? when did this happens? what was the outcome?

thanks A

 

[MJS]

I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but I see threads like this and always wonder how many people who offer advice have ever been in a true slef-defense situation. It seems generally the more violent the advice is, the less real world experience has been had. The first job of self-defense is to get out of the situation taking the least amount of damage as possible. Period. If the attacker gets hurt in the process that sometimes happens. To focus on what harm you are going to do to them instead of getting your butt out of the sitauation in one piece is not realistic and as often as not will lead to you getting hurt, in my opinion.

Well, what you said is pretty much a no brainer. Of course the main goal is to try to get away, without having to fight. However, in reality, thats not always the case. There is only so much talking that you can do, and there are times when there is no time to talk.

The point of this thread, which as I said, I got from another forum, was to show the mindset of people. IMO, people who are concerned with their safety, and train to be capable of defending themselves, need to be capable of adjusting their response to whats happening. This can range from verbal defusing to killing, and everything in between.

I've been in situations many times. I spent time working in Corrections, where I had to deal with violent people every day, people who would not think twice about taking a swing at me.

What amazes me, is the people who train, but are terrified of actually going thru the process of defending themselves. Why train then?

 

[WC_lun]

Those in LEO are a special circumstance. They are doing more than just self-defense. There is a difference between the every day joe on the street just trying to save his backside and the LEO who must control some animal in the safest manner they can. I do have a bit of experience with this as well.

You guys are right in to properly be able to defend oneself you must be willing to do violence and you must do it with little or no hesitation. Hesitation can get you hurt.

Not everyone trains for the same reasons. In my experience, most martial arts practitioners do not train for realistic self defense. They usually train for a sport or physical benefits. The self defense part is almost an afterthought. How often have you heard someone say they train for this or that and oh yeah, it can also be used as defense? While there is nothing wrong with any reason for training, I think some people are fooling themselves about the actual defense effectiveness of what they train in. Knowing the difference between the fantasy of self defense and the reality is a HUGE step in keeping yourself safe.

 

[BloodMoney]

The major hurdle ive found in teaching womens self defense is the mindset.

Its not hard to get a guy into an aggressive mindset, even the timid can turn nasty quickly, I guess (to make a generalized and perhaps sexist comment) guys are pretty much hardwired for violence.

Women on the other hand often lack the mindset to really hurt someone (not sure if thats a bad thing most of the time lol). I too have come across "wow I would never do that to someone thats horrible" when showing particularly dirty street techniques. My answer is "well im sure hell just politely cease raping you as thats pretty horrible, hell just see what hes doing is wrong and stop". Ive had a few weird looks, but the reality is if you dont have a survival instinct, the mindset to live no matter what, no do whatever it takes to not be raped (even if it means maiming or killing) then you will be a victim and not a survivor.

A senior Chun instructor from Aussie back in the day taught a few would be rapists a lesson theyll never forget. One had a little sleep in hospital for a few days and the other needed surgery to remove his testicles from his pelvic cavity or whatever its called (im not exaggerating). When asked in the newspaper about it she very flatly stated she attacked them as viciously as she could, they were trying to rape or beat her, so yeah they got what was coming to them. I wish I could find that news clipping (think my master has it) because I would love to copy it and then get a copy of a horrible story from that week involving a murder or rape and show both to prospective students and say "which one do you want to be, the girl on the left or girl on the right?"....

 

[aedrasteia]

BloodMoney wrote:

""Its not hard to get a guy into an aggressive mindset, even the timid can turn nasty quickly, I guess (to make a generalized and perhaps sexist comment) guys are pretty much hardwired for violence.

Women on the other hand often lack the mindset to really hurt someone (not sure if thats a bad thing most of the time lol). I too have come across "wow I would never do that to someone thats horrible" when showing particularly dirty street techniques. My answer is "well im sure hell just politely cease raping you as thats pretty horrible, hell just see what hes doing is wrong and stop". Ive had a few weird looks, but the reality is if you dont have a survival instinct, the mindset to live no matter what, no do whatever it takes to not be raped (even if it means maiming or killing) then you will be a victim and not a survivor."

How's that working out for you, in teaching womens self defense?

thanks, A

 

[l_uk3y]

As an point to add to this topic. I myself find that when training I try to avoid hurting my training partner (I.e get softer then necessary) and I know its in my head and is holding me back from developing further. I've always been a fairly gentle type of person with no lust for blood or direct confrontation. (A good thing in most cases)

As part of this topic. Does anyone have any good desensitization techniques or training tips to help switch the mindset into one that allows them to perform without holding back.


Luke

 

[Andrew Green]

As an point to add to this topic. I myself find that when training I try to avoid hurting my training partner (I.e get softer then necessary) and I know its in my head and is holding me back from developing further. I've always been a fairly gentle type of person with no lust for blood or direct confrontation. (A good thing in most cases)

As part of this topic. Does anyone have any good desensitization techniques or training tips to help switch the mindset into one that allows them to perform without holding back.


Luke

You're cheating them out of their training, it's got nothing to do with blood lust.

But if they are never being pressured, they will never learn to deal with coming under pressure, and that is one of the most valuable lessons to be learned.

If you want to self-control, and to get rid of blood lust, Spar hard. When you can stay calm and react intelligently and strategically with someone trying (and succeeding) to punch you in the face, then you are a martial artist IMO.

 

[sgtmac_46]

As an point to add to this topic. I myself find that when training I try to avoid hurting my training partner (I.e get softer then necessary) and I know its in my head and is holding me back from developing further. I've always been a fairly gentle type of person with no lust for blood or direct confrontation. (A good thing in most cases)

As part of this topic. Does anyone have any good desensitization techniques or training tips to help switch the mindset into one that allows them to perform without holding back.


Luke

I don't like hurting my training partners, either, I tend to go easy on them so as not to hurt them (though they would probably say differently) but I do try to pressure them as much as they can handle.........avoiding hurting your training partners and also pressuring them properly aren't mutually exclusive.

That has never limited me in the street, however, as I tend to have no problem hurting folks who earned it.........again, the issue is one of mindset. In the street it's about harnessing fear and anger and turning it in to action, something you don't quite experience the same way in training most of the time.

 

[MJS]

As an point to add to this topic. I myself find that when training I try to avoid hurting my training partner (I.e get softer then necessary) and I know its in my head and is holding me back from developing further. I've always been a fairly gentle type of person with no lust for blood or direct confrontation. (A good thing in most cases)

As part of this topic. Does anyone have any good desensitization techniques or training tips to help switch the mindset into one that allows them to perform without holding back.


Luke

The martial arts are a contact activity...period. IMO, if someone can't handle contact, then the arts are not for them. I'm not saying that we should be driving to the ER after every class, but by not having any contact, is doing more harm than good. There have been times when I've been working with those people, and I've had to tell them...repeatedly, that when they're going to choke me, to actually put their hands on my neck and squeeze, rather than giving me a shoulder massage. LOL.

 

[fighter_x]

A certain amount of force application is paramount for proper training. One of the biggest obstacles I faced when starting out in martial arts some 30 years ago was a major confidence problem. Definitely not going to name styles or teachers, but the early training I received did nothing to help with my confidence. While I was very fast to catch on, and knew this was what I wanted to do with myself, completely compliant opponents, point sparring, and blind mimicking did nothing for my confidence. I had several years of training under my belt by the time I hit high school, but would often back down or allow myself to be bullied for fear of getting hurt. It wasn't until I joined the military, that I started learning the proper lessons, and received the proper training.

I think the military, and Kyokushin Karate did more for my confidence than all earlier attempts at training. While i would eventually evolve into other areas of self defense, it was the physicality of the military and Kyokushin's hard sparring ideology that gave me the courage to fight.

The simple fact is that you cannot become a competent fighter without fighting. Nothing explains why you do a certain technique better than feeling the results of your mistakes physically. Pain instructs, but certainly while training certain precautions and rules should apply.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Sorry, I wont live anywhere where a mother takes her kids into the basement because of an intruder. The intruder follows them down there, she grabs her husband's hunting rifle and warns the attacker to go away. He does not so she shoots him.

She gets charged because there was a window in the basement, so she did not fully follow her responsability to flee in the face of danger.

Link please. Because I don't believe it.
This sounds like one of those stories that happened to a friend of a friend, but turn out to be urban legends.

IF you can provide a link, even then I am willing to bet there is more to the story than your summary. Last time something like this was discussed, one of our US LEOs pointed out that even states without castle doctrine have equivalent case law and that a real threat can be answered with deadly force without being required to flee your home.

So...

Links or it didn't happen.

 

[First Action]

yeah ive heard of these stories to. Apparently one of the things (particularly women) have a problem with is that they are afraid of hurting the attacker. Personally, I think if someone is attacking you... stab the ****er in the eye with your key then worry about everything else later.... at least you';ll be alive to worry about it.

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Link please. Because I don't believe it.
This sounds like one of those stories that happened to a friend of a friend, but turn out to be urban legends.

IF you can provide a link, even then I am willing to bet there is more to the story than your summary. Last time something like this was discussed, one of our US LEOs pointed out that even states without castle doctrine have equivalent case law and that a real threat can be answered with deadly force without being required to flee your home.

So...

Links or it didn't happen.

I believe it happend near Boston, about 2 or 3 years ago, I think Andy M posted it hear or on another site we frequent.

Not going to do a long search for you.

 

[Slipper]

Perhaps Roberta Shaffer case? It wasn't an intruder however, but her fiancee. So, perhaps not?

http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/367/367mass508.html

 

[Blade96]

So, I'm surfing the forums the other day, and came across this post. The person, who is a martial artist, was talking about something that he encountered. He was telling a story about how a female was mugged in the area in which they park their cars, I assume in the area in which they all work. He's talking with a female co-worker, who was nervous about walking to her car.

He said he was giving her some advice, ie: be aware, walk with keys in hand, and to use the keys, should someone attempt to mug her. He said her response to this was, "Well, I suppose I could throw the keys at his face and run." Needless to say, he was shocked at this reply, and told her that she may be better off using the keys to strike, towards the face.

Her next reply to that, really shocked him. She says, "Isn't that kind of dirty? I mean, you could really hurt the guy."

So, this brings me to the question: Why is it that when someone is trying to cause you serious bodily harm, that you suddenly become compasionate towards them, and dont want to fight back? You're suddenly concerned that what you do to them may hurt them.

Now, yes, we have all heard the, "Just comply, do what they ask, and they wont hurt you" speech, which, IMO, is BS, but whatever. We've heard the stories of the badguy, sueing the victim for injuries, which IMO, is also BS. I just can't seem to understand why, if some punk is trying to attack a woman, rape her, etc., that the thought of hurting this guy, enough to hopefully get the hell out of there, is such a difficult thing.

Cause us girls are supposed to be sugar and spice and everything nice.

also i was in a situation where i had to use force to get away from the guy and my mind set is, Do whatever is necessary, your aim isnt to hurt someone, its to get away and stay alive and stay safe. If you have to hurt them do it. But only if you have to. and btw. I'm a girl.

 

[Carol]

I believe it happend near Boston, about 2 or 3 years ago, I think Andy M posted it hear or on another site we frequent.

Not going to do a long search for you.

That case wasn't 2 or 3 years ago, it was nearly 40 years ago.

The case was the Commonwealth vs. Roberta Shaffer. The incident happened in 1972 and went before Superior court in 1975. As documented in appellate testimony, the basement had a "door leading outside, which was open when police arrived". Not a high basement window out of reach.

http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/367/367mass508.html
http://masscases.com/cases/app/2/2massappct658.html

Ms. Schaffer received a gubernatorial pardon, and it was that incident which lead to Mass. passing a Stand Your Ground law, MGL 278:8a


http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleII/Chapter278/Section8a

Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully in said dwelling.