Business practices vs. teaching practices

[Balrog]

I'm probably not going to word this very well to start, but I want to toss out a topic that is rapidly becoming a hot button issue with me.

For those like me who run commercial schools, do you prep your students for the fact that there will come times when they are denied permission to test for higher rank, or that they will "no change" and have to test again? I ask this because more and more, I'm having to judge students at tournaments where I look at their technique and think to myself that their instructor's standard for promotion was that the check for the testing fee didn't bounce. I've had discussions with instructors where they have admitting promoting someone because the student would quit if they didn't. I've had parents threaten to pull students out if I don't promote their kid.

How do you handle this in your school? I start from day one. The new student handbook that I give them explains the testing procedure and tells them right up front that promotions are earned, not awarded. And I've had three separate incidents of parents demanding that their kids be promoted. In all three cases, I said something to the effect of "Oh, no - you did not just say that to me" and I told them right on the spot that their kid was denied permission to test because of *their* actions. All of them backed down and apologized, but their kid did not test at the next testing in spite of that.

There are way too many schools in way too many styles who promote based on accounts receivable as opposed to quality and performance.

Comments?

 

[Big Don]

My sifu tells everyone the rule:
If you ask when you are testing, your test gets pushed back a month.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I do not charge for testing but I make sure everyone knows that rank comes when your ready for it not when you think your ready. Failing a test is just another way of learning and I make sure they know that also.
My test dates come when I think they are ready and I may not even tell them they are testing. If they are noy on top of their game the day I test them hopefuly they will be the next time.
I think they should do their best each day ( or at least try to) not just when they are testing

 

[dancingalone]

It is a difficult line to balance if there is a need for income to keep the doors open. I've heard more than once that the trick is to actually run two different schools on the same premises. You teach a watered down curriculum to the majority of the students, especially if they are children, and the standards for promotion will be low. Meanwhile, the serious students with some talent and ambition are invited to participate in the 'inner' school where the 'real' stuff is taught and expectations are high.

I'm not sure how to feel about this. A couple of teachers in various styles I respect very much for their skill follow this exact practice and no doubt they are successful financially. Their top students are excellent even if the average member is quite mediocre. Still the idea seems a bit unfair to all the students to me.

 

[Cirdan]

We always tell our students that people progress at different rates. This goes for kids too, but we do inform them why and what each needs to work with at the moment. There is also a tag system that shows how close you are to grading so there is no doubt if you are ready or not. Complaining won`t work, shut up and train.

 

[jthomas1600]

It is a difficult line to balance if there is a need for income to keep the doors open. I've heard more than once that the trick is to actually run two different schools on the same premises. You teach a watered down curriculum to the majority of the students, especially if they are children, and the standards for promotion will be low. Meanwhile, the serious students with some talent and ambition are invited to participate in the 'inner' school where the 'real' stuff is taught and expectations are high.

I'm not sure how to feel about this. A couple of teachers in various styles I respect very much for their skill follow this exact practice and no doubt they are successful financially. Their top students are excellent even if the average member is quite mediocre. Still the idea seems a bit unfair to all the students to me.

This is no different than the public school system. If you expected all students to excel in all subjects very few would finish high school. Not saying it's right, just acknowledging it's there. I see some evidence of this in the school where I train. I've talked to my kids about it and told them it's not a bad thing because it forces them to be responsible for their own development above and beyond the bare minimum expectations. They can either be one of the students that just gets by or they can dig deeper and strive for excellence.

As far as how testing is done our school makes it real easy. Our instructor puts stripes on your belt. There's four altogether and the last one is black. We test every 10-12 weeks and a week or so prior to testing the announcement is made "if you have your black stripe you are invited to test". It may seem gimmicky to some, but I like it. I have yet to see or over hear a student begging or politicking for their stripes...you either have them, or you don't. Once or twice my kids have felt like they were right on the verge of getting their black stripe right before testing and then I sense they feel they have a whole 10 weeks of kind of stagnating waiting for the next testing. I tell them this also is not a bad thing. It gives them 10 weeks to worry about perfecting technique instead of worrying about the next belt.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm probably not going to word this very well to start, but I want to toss out a topic that is rapidly becoming a hot button issue with me.

For those like me who run commercial schools, do you prep your students for the fact that there will come times when they are denied permission to test for higher rank, or that they will "no change" and have to test again? I ask this because more and more, I'm having to judge students at tournaments where I look at their technique and think to myself that their instructor's standard for promotion was that the check for the testing fee didn't bounce. I've had discussions with instructors where they have admitting promoting someone because the student would quit if they didn't. I've had parents threaten to pull students out if I don't promote their kid.

How do you handle this in your school? I start from day one. The new student handbook that I give them explains the testing procedure and tells them right up front that promotions are earned, not awarded. And I've had three separate incidents of parents demanding that their kids be promoted. In all three cases, I said something to the effect of "Oh, no - you did not just say that to me" and I told them right on the spot that their kid was denied permission to test because of *their* actions. All of them backed down and apologized, but their kid did not test at the next testing in spite of that.

There are way too many schools in way too many styles who promote based on accounts receivable as opposed to quality and performance.

Comments?

I teach for a commercial school and I teach privately. Privately, my tests carry no fees, though I do have them at set times. I don't make a huge deal out of them; show up, pass or not. If you pass, you may get a new belt (I don't use separate belts for each geub; one belt covers two geubs) and learn the next batch of techniques, knowing that they'll be on your next test. Don't pass and you are told what you need to work on. Since my classes are tiny, I don't have multiple classes for different grades, so if you don't pass, you will still practice the new material with the students who did pass. I constantly go back over basics, so pretty much everyone is working on the much of the same material. The focus of my class is on learning the techniques. The belts are there because after practicing martial arts on and off for over three decades, I have a ton of colored belts that would otherwise just collect dust.

At the commercial school where I teach, geub testings carry a fee and are a vital part of the school's income. My GM is one of those who values the mind and spirit of the student more than the physical techniques. He says that real training begins at first dan, so primarilly, he wants to see colored belt students doing their best in the class and to not give up because parts of the curriculum are challenging.

This results in some people moving through the colored belts at a rate that seems too rapid for the level of skill that they possess. Many of those students seem to suddenly get it together around blue belt (4th geub-3rd geub). Those that seem to struggle but make it to and through the black belt test seem to get it together between first and second dan.

So in fairness, his method yields positive results with regards to developing technique and physical skill in the students, but to an outsider looking in, it could look like he promotes people just to promote them. He does occasionally have someone retest. On those occasions, it is usually because they display poor attitude or lack of spirit during the test.

By spirit, I mean the mental toughness to get through a demanding test without giving up, even if you feel that you can't go on. Essentially, he wants to see 'indomitable spirit' from the student during a test more than anything else.

Now, do I agree with his philosophy? In principle, yes, though I think that it presents a good number of pitfalls.

Daniel

 

[Balrog]

Some very interesting points of view. Keep 'em coming!!

 

[Aiki Lee]

Personally I don't handle much of the "business" aspect of the school, but since I plan to run a dojo of my own one day I should probably learn, neh?

Testing in our school is done at the end of every month for anyone who wishes to test. There are no fees for testing and no one really "fails" testing. If a person is not qualified to advance they are simply not there yet and need more time to train. If you think about it all our kyu ranking tests are treated more like pre-tests to see how a person is doing and if they do well then guess what? New rank!

Dan ranks tend to only be tested for around summer during our annual weekend seminar where all the schools come together.

Anyway, fees are paid when a person gets his/her new belt after offically passing the test. The advancement fee covers the belt, certificate, and any DVD or CDs with information for their next level on it that is usually not covered during regualr training time.

Balrog, I think you are doing just fine. If people wine about why they aren't getting promoted, do you even want them in your school to begin with?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Personally I don't handle much of the "business" aspect of the school, but since I plan to run a dojo of my own one day I should probably learn, neh?

It depends on whether it is a source of income, or whether you do it for the art.
If it is a source of income, then the priority will be the business end of things.
If you do it for the art, then you can prioritize the MA aspect.

It's kinda like photography. Ask Bob if you doubt me
If you are not depending on it, you can obsess over getting the best results possible, and time or number of clients won't matter and you can refuse projects that don't itnerest you. If it is your livelihood, you'll have to spend a lot of time on marketing, be efficient with your time and accept everything coming your way because you need to keep the money coming in.

If I should ever be in the position where I can make the choice to teach, then I would much rather teach for a small group, making just enough so that I don't lose money. I'd accept and keep only motivated students who are serious about wanting to learn, regardless of whether they can pay a lot or not. As soon as I would have to depend on the teaching for my livelihood, I'd have to worry about keeping as much students as possible, even if that means that not all of my students are the students I would accept otherwise.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The hardest part is finding the parameters between the lowest expected level for a belt and the highest. It is not reasonable to expect each blue belt to be the exact same level of proficiency. If you look at the normal primary school grades for example, and get the smartest kid in grade five and the lowest ranking kid in grade 5 there is a huge difference between the two and yet both fall in the parameters of what is required for grade 5. Martial arts is no different and yet, particularly at black belt, some people expect two students to be alsmost identical in skill level because they both wear a black belt. Then there is co-ordination/athleticism which plays a huge part in arts such as tkd. Basically, some students will never be able to do a jump spinning kick, no matter how hard they try or how much extra effort they put in, it just wont happen. So in this case, does the student just get told "you can never obtain a black belt because you cant do that kick". The level that most people expect a black belt to be (including me) is simply unattainable to some people. I meet students who are so un-cordinated and inflexible or start MA at an older age that by most standards they just cant ever be a great martial artist. What do we do with these students? Do we just let them get to a belt that suits their level and then they never advance again, because in all honesty I know many students who just dont have what it takes to be a black belt (by my definition) and no amount of training will ever change that. Its no different from sports in general, no matter how much golf I play I will never play at an elite level, if it was that simple Id just quit work and play golf all day until I am ready to join the pro tour. In my opinion black belt is the "'elite level", especially higher dans, and by that definition a lot of people will just never be able to get one.

 

[ppko]

My students are tested from the time they walk through the door. I do not give a traditional test until black belt. The reason for this is my class schedule is hard enough and I can tell when someone is ready to test out. One week is like this Monday: Karate, Tuesday:Reality Based, Wednesday: Kali, Thursday: Jujutsu, Friday:Fight Night The next week is like this Monday: Karate, Tuesday: Aikijujutsu, Wednesday: Reality Based, Thursday: Jujutsu, Friday: Fight Night every week reality based night rotates to every day except friday. This allows me to teach a full curricullum and still tell how my students fair not only in the arts that are taught but also in what is really going to matter on the street. I hold my students to a high standard probably higher then most schools, I do this because I know my students can do whatever they truly put there mind to the only limits they have are what they put on themselves. There is a difference in believing and knowing and like I tell my students if you know you can do it then you can.

 

[Bruno@MT]

. Its no different from sports in general, no matter how much golf I play I will never play at an elite level, if it was that simple Id just quit work and play golf all day until I am ready to join the pro tour. In my opinion black belt is the "'elite level", especially higher dans, and by that definition a lot of people will just never be able to get one.

Good point. No matter which art you are doing, if you cannot fulfill the requirements of a grade, you should not get the grade. Because at a cerain point you will also be expected to teach. And what good is a teacher who isn't able to do the things he is expected to pass on?

For example, if I was doing TKD, I would never be able to achieve a spinning jump kick. My legs just aren't that flexible. So I would not expect to be promoted to blackbelt if I can't execute half the required techniques.

I am not saying that allowances can't be made to circumvent a specific disability if it does not invalidate the core principles. Fair enough. But if not even the core can be kept whole, then a grading is not warranted.

 

[Phenix_Rider]

Someday I hope to run a school. And then it will be strictly for the teaching. I'd be perfectly happy if it just pays to keep itself open, and I certainly don't hope to make money off it. I want a small group of dedicated students, with no catering to fads or children. I'm firmly in the "if you can't make the requirements, you don't pass" camp. I feel people any more need a big dose of "You're not that special." If they can't pass, tough. Keep practicing. If they still can't pass, and want to advance, better find something they are good at. No reason to turn away from training though.

 

[Grenadier]

I teach in a commercial dojo, and have also taught in non-commecial schools as well. Hopefully, I'll be a dojo owner in the very near future.

In both cases, my rule is this: if I think you're ready to test, then I'll give you an exam form. For the lower ranks, I'll look at overall progress made, but for higher ranks, it's based on how well you've been consistently performing, and how much you've been striving to better yourself.

I only give an exam for to those who have demonstrated a good proficiency with the given requirements, that are clearly posted so that 1) the students understand what they need to know, and 2) the instructors make sure that the students get it.

You fill out the form and pay the fee, and then you can take the exam. If you don't pass, then it's either because of an exam day mistake, or because I made a mistake in giving you the form in the first place. If the student, or the parent, complains, I explain the procedures, and let them know that the individual can re-test in as short as two weeks, while working on that which was deficient.

Either way, you don't have to pay for a re-test.

Each person's test might very well have different standards for grading. For example, I'm not going to insist that a big, heavy-set person with limited flexibility throw a double jumping front kick to the target's face, during the performance of kata Kanku Dai. A simple standing left kick, followed by a stepping right front kick is fine, as long as they perform the best two front kicks that they can do.

However, if there's a young, athletic individual, who starts using such moves, simply because they don't want to do the more difficult moves, that's not acceptable, since they're certainly physically capable of doing such things.

As long as someone is giving the best that they can, then that's usually going to be good enough.

There are times, though, that I wish that I could implant the minds of our 40+ year old students, into the bodies of 20 year olds in their prime... They could certainly show some of the youngsters a thing or three.

 

[LuckyKBoxer]

How do you handle this in your school? I start from day one. The new student handbook that I give them explains the testing procedure and tells them right up front that promotions are earned, not awarded. And I've had three separate incidents of parents demanding that their kids be promoted. In all three cases, I said something to the effect of "Oh, no - you did not just say that to me" and I told them right on the spot that their kid was denied permission to test because of *their* actions. All of them backed down and apologized, but their kid did not test at the next testing in spite of that.

There are way too many schools in way too many styles who promote based on accounts receivable as opposed to quality and performance.

Comments?

My first question is the parents that you had a run in with, did they stay or did they leave and go elsewhere? just curious.

My thoughts on the subject based on my connection with a large commercial school, over 500 students..mostly kids... open for 26 years...I have been associated with the school for 18 years now, is that it is a fine line to walk between quality control, and student retention.

I have seen the line crossed in both direction with a simple comment, or a single decision. Its tough to tow the line when you are depending on the income to live and feed your family.

My thoughts are that if you want to be a successful commercial school owner you either have to have a large child enrollment, or be a famous martial artist... both is preferable.

Kids are going to be the main problem when it comes to quality control especially on everything I have seen in schools and at tournaments. Over the years we have experimented with different ways to control quality, motivate students, and retain them..
some have worked and some failed..
what we have found after years of experimenting, and thousands of students coming in our doors is that for kids we do a junior belt program.... not a seperate curriculum per say, but as they are going through the system we require them to learn all the basics first for each new belt level. for each group of basics they earn a stripe when a ranking black belt deems they have an understanding of the movement, and a level of ownership of the movement, once they earn all the basics stripes they are then allowed to test for the junior belt, which is really just a fairly quick 1-2 hour run through of all the basics for that belt level, once they pass they are given a junior level belt and then start working on their curriculum stripes, still working basics, but spending more time now on the techniques, forms, sets, etc.
many years ago we were alot more harsh on failing or passing students, and it was not uncommon to fail several students in a test, based on their concentration levels, retention of information, performance, etc.
It was noticible that a certain percentage of students left after failing a test and would either quit martial arts for good or go to the "belt factories" in our area.
neither was an outcome that we found acceptable. Besides it really effected everyones mood after the test if one-four kids are crying because they didnt pass.
so we came up with another solution that has seemed to work well. We started white striping belts for certain areas that were either borderline, or just under our standards, these stripes would have to be worked on by the student and the problem areas would have to be corrected before that student is allowed to move on to his new curriculum.
WE still will fail students occasionally, but it is rare now, the white stripes have done a few things for us, they have allowed the student to progress, spotlighted areas in need of improvement.. both for the student and the instructors, and given a much better mood all around.. Retention levels have risen, overall quality has risen, and mostly everyone is happy.
The problems are when people like me who came up in the arts in a very old school, blood on the floors every night type of way hold on to expectations that students need to meet my own previous experience.
I have changed my views on what I expect from my students based on experience and an understanding that not everyone starts martial arts and pursues advancement for the same reason. My job is to provide a service, to understand what my students are wanting to get out of the martial arts, provide them with quality instruction and correction, and provide them with options and advice. I need to do what I say I am going to do, but not be to prideful to look at options and different answers that might work better, especially if I am looking to make my livelyhood at this. I think that a highly profitable commercial school, with alot of students who have good quality martial arts skills is not only possible, but probable with the right amount of effort on part of the owner. Like anything else in life if its worth doing it is not going to be easy. Running your own business, no matter what business requires lots of time, 80+ hours of working a studio to make it both successful and efficient at producing quality skills is not unrealistic. Putting in a part time effort and expecting a studio to grow and be a quality place is unrealistic.

 

[Nomad]

For example, if I was doing TKD, I would never be able to achieve a spinning jump kick. My legs just aren't that flexible. So I would not expect to be promoted to blackbelt if I can't execute half the required techniques.

Really? What about if you could teach a spinning jump kick, and teach it really well to those who are younger and more athletic?

After all, nearly all those who get their black belt in an art will, at one day, face the fact that there are techniques that they can't do anymore. This doesn't in any way revoke their rank, in my book.

OTOH, you have other black belts that can perform techniques to high levels, but don't necessarily understand them, and couldn't teach someone how to fall down, never mind teaching them forms or the specifics of techniques.

Preferably, a black belt should be able to do all of these things, but I see nothing wrong with someone earning a rank based on their strengths, provided they meet the minimum standards in other areas.

 

[Nomad]

It is a difficult line to balance if there is a need for income to keep the doors open. I've heard more than once that the trick is to actually run two different schools on the same premises. You teach a watered down curriculum to the majority of the students, especially if they are children, and the standards for promotion will be low. Meanwhile, the serious students with some talent and ambition are invited to participate in the 'inner' school where the 'real' stuff is taught and expectations are high.

A variation on this has worked well at our school. The junior members have a different belt scheme (involving lots of colorful stripes), and they test regularly (quarterly), and almost everyone passes. Some are given "conditional passes", for which they have to show the instructor the technique that needs serious work within the next two weeks to have earned their belt. This works well particularly with regards to child retention in the program; the kids are always moving forward.

When they transition to the "senior" program (at 13), they are assigned a senior rank based on their relative skill levels (generally somewhere between blue and brown if they've done all the junior ranks). Promotions from this point on are entirely merit-based and unscheduled, and people can (and have) spent years at a particular rank, either because of a lack of applying themselves or because they don't fulfill the requirements of the next rank.

I actually think this system balances out the two needs (financial and quality control) fairly well. The difference between this and what dancingalone describes is that there is no "inner" school, just an understanding that the demands on each student are higher once they enter the senior program.

 

[Aiki Lee]

All in all, the majority of people who sign up for martial arts probably do so because they are bored, need to get away from the house, and don't want to go to a conventional gym. The hardcore people are few and far between and even though I find them much more fun to train, the "regular" customers remind me that what we do is a beneficial service to people.
We have a guy in our class who is a great student. His physical skill is so-so, but his attitude is wonderful and he specifically says that lessons in our class have directly helped him in his career and personal life. So just keep in mind that just because we don't see how MA is benefiting someone doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't mean a great deal to that person.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Really? What about if you could teach a spinning jump kick, and teach it really well to those who are younger and more athletic?

After all, nearly all those who get their black belt in an art will, at one day, face the fact that there are techniques that they can't do anymore. This doesn't in any way revoke their rank, in my book.

There is a big difference.
If I've mastered the double spinning jump kick (or whatever) but age catches up with me, I still undertand it because I know it, even if I can't execute it anymore. Therefore I will be able to teach it by instructing the students and tell them where to adjust, based on the fact that I know what they are doing and why it isn't working.

If I've never been able to master it even remotely, then I really have no clue what I am doing, and I cannot teach it to my students since I don't know what to say to them or explain what they need to do.

Ability may fade, but the understanding will stay. If there was no ability to begin with, then there will never be an understanding either.