Bush: We don't torture (?????)

[Phoenix44]

That Clinton was "soft on terrorism" is patently untrue (although he was certainly hampered in efficacy by the fact that the Congress was WAY more interested in his sex life than in foreign policy). PLEASE read the 9/11 Commission Report.

But the bottom line is, with respect to the current world events, Clinton is irrelevant--history. The fact is, 9/11 happened, but it still had NOTHING TO DO WITH IRAQ. And the aftermath of Iraq included the events at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, essentially the topic of this thread. That's all Bush and Company, and not any legacy of Clinton. Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, Bolton, Armitage, et al were hell bent on going into Iraq LONG before Bush even became president, they articulated this in a letter to Clinton in 1998, and you can confirm that at the Project for a New American Century website (www. newamericancentury.org). They were just waiting for an excuse, and they managed to turn 9/11 into that excuse. With a Republican Congress, it was easy for Bush to forge ahead. And it had NOTHING to do with Clinton.

 

[sgtmac_46]

That Libby was feeding Judy Miller ******** has nothing to do with Joe Wilson. This was taking place before the war. If Ms. Miller was not an official member of the White House Iraq Group, she was certainly in bed with their agenda.

I make no mention in this thread of Joseph Wilson, because no one knew who he was until after the war had begun, and it became apparent that there were no Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.

If you want the truth, you got to stop listening to talk radio. Your understanding of the timelines, and the people involved appears to be seriously flawed.

Libby put Miller and Chalabi together. Libby had Miller plant stories about how horrible Iraq was - all of which have been proven false - the CIA doubted this material and these claims and these claimants (see Newsweek) - but Cheney pushed ahead. The lies Libby told Miller ended up in the New York Times, which Cheney cited as proof in the lead up to the war.

And Americans are in more danger today, because Iraq has become a proving ground for terrorist. They are now able to practice and learn and develop skills. George Bush / Dick Cheney have turned Iraq into a Terrorist Factory.

Something Bill Clinton couldn't have done in his wildest nightmares.

That's the most convoluted logic i've heard yet. Valerie Plame's identity was made public in July 2003 AFTER Joe Wilson's interview in the New York Times. The only purpose even alleged for "leaking" Valerie Plame's identity was as a result of Joe Wilson's New York Times interview. That's the core of the argument on your side, even, that Plame was "outed" because of Joe Wilson's statements about the administration. Again, you might want to check that alleged time line again.

As for "horrible stories about Iraq" having been proven false, which ones are those? I note, again, how vague and nebulous your accusations usually are. Again, your entire argument is based on one leap of logic after another.

Lets hear some specifics of what "Horrible stories" about Iraq are untrue. Joe Wilson himself reported that evidence existed that Iraq had attempted to buy yellow cake. The fact that they were unsuccessful is certainly not evidence that the administration "Lied" or evidence of Iraq's innocents in attempting to gather nuclear material. Lets hear your "facts".

As for practicing skills, you might want to keep in mind that dead terrorists practice nothing. In Afghanistan they were free to practice, and a had safe base of operations. As I pointed out in another post, terrorists in Iraq are getting desperate and have made some HUGE public relations mistakes. When's the last time the arab street has yelled "Burn in hell, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi!”. The same al-Zarqawi, I might add, who happens to be a native son of Jordan. Go figure.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9979747/

The on going mission certain people to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory continues.

 

[Tgace]

[sarcasm]Failure at all costs. We will fail at home, whatever the cost may be, we shall fail on the beaches, we shall fail on the landing grounds, we shall fail in the fields and in the streets, we shall fail in the hills; we shall never have victory under this administration!!![/sarcasm]

 

[BlueDragon1981]

hmmm....

democrats blame republicans....republicans blame democrats....

Isn't that causing inefficiencies in the government. Maybe we shouldn't have parties ... then people would have to make up their own minds...

 

[sgtmac_46]

hmmm....

democrats blame republicans....republicans blame democrats....

Isn't that causing inefficiencies in the government. Maybe we shouldn't have parties ... then people would have to make up their own minds...

It wouldn't matter if we had parties are not. Parties merely represent natural human inclinations. The result is the same no matter what you call it. The idea that the party system in some way creates this is a misunderstanding of the process. It is human inclinations that created parties, not the other way around. We could have a thousand parties, or none at all. It would not make any real difference (with the exception that a larger number of parties would result in even more inefficiencies).

We could make political parties illegal, and people would still join with like minded persons to form "unofficial" political alliances. The problem isn't parties, the problem is basic political disagreements on a core philosophical level.

 

[Cryozombie]

It wouldn't matter if we had parties are not. Parties merely represent natural human inclinations.

I dont neccessarily know if that is true. I know at least 3 people who told me flat out that they would vote for their party regardless of the issues, and that they selected their parties because its what their parents are...

 

[michaeledward]

That's the most convoluted logic i've heard yet. Valerie Plame's identity was made public in July 2003 AFTER Joe Wilson's interview in the New York Times. The only purpose even alleged for "leaking" Valerie Plame's identity was as a result of Joe Wilson's New York Times interview. That's the core of the argument on your side, even, that Plame was "outed" because of Joe Wilson's statements about the administration. Again, you might want to check that alleged time line again.

As for "horrible stories about Iraq" having been proven false, which ones are those? I note, again, how vague and nebulous your accusations usually are. Again, your entire argument is based on one leap of logic after another.

Lets hear some specifics of what "Horrible stories" about Iraq are untrue. Joe Wilson himself reported that evidence existed that Iraq had attempted to buy yellow cake. The fact that they were unsuccessful is certainly not evidence that the administration "Lied" or evidence of Iraq's innocents in attempting to gather nuclear material. Lets hear your "facts".

As for practicing skills, you might want to keep in mind that dead terrorists practice nothing. In Afghanistan they were free to practice, and a had safe base of operations. As I pointed out in another post, terrorists in Iraq are getting desperate and have made some HUGE public relations mistakes. When's the last time the arab street has yelled "Burn in hell, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi!”. The same al-Zarqawi, I might add, who happens to be a native son of Jordan. Go figure.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9979747/

The on going mission certain people to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory continues.

Good God Man!

Libby told, or arranged for Chalabi to tell Miller that Iraq had purchased aluminum tubes that can only be used for making refining centerfuges before the war. This is a 'horror story' that has been proven false.

Libby told, or arranged for Chalabi (or Curveball) to tell Miller that al Qaeda had received extensive training on working with Chemical and Biological weapons before the war. This is a 'horror story' that has been proven false.

Your statements concerning Joe Wilson / Valerie Plame are incongruous. Unless you are assuming that Iriving Libby never met or spoke to Judith Miller before leaking Valerie Plame's name in June of 2003.

Secretary of Rumsfeld had asked the question, but has seemed to be incapable of answering the it; "Are we capturing or killing more terrorists than the madrassas are turning out each day?"

From what I am able to read and observe, the Actions of the United States government is a catalyst for more young Muslem men to join the ranks of Radical Islam. Each day, the Actions of George W. Bush is creating more terrorists, and providing those terrorists with a proving ground in Iraq.

Each person who has been 'disappeared' to a secret CIA torture prison has relatives and neighbors who, no doubt, are telling the tales of America. Do you think Karen Hughes can spread better stories about America that the families of those who are now missing?

Oh, and the reports of what Joe Wilson reported back to the CIA are: "It was highly unlikely Iraq and Niger had any agreement at all. Any claims were just false. All of Niger's uranium ore was committed to a different distributor, a French Company. There is no way some 500 tons of yellowcake could have been diverted to Iraq." Your word "unsuccessful" is way to strong for what had taken place - sounds like a Hannity claim to me.

 

[BlueDragon1981]

Parties do create inaccracies...

For instance how many people vote republican just because they are registered that way and vice versa. Or straight ticket. Take out straight ticket voting and make people know who they are voting for. Take out the party and people will have to pay attention to the issues, not the party.

How many times do you think someone wanted to vote one party or another but someone from that party made them feel it was wrong to vote against the party. Just like those who say they are against the war but for the soldiers are called unpatriotic. People always pressure people to go one way or another and the party system gives more fuel to this.

I'm not totally against the party system...just showing that it possibliy is becoming a problem in the political system.

 

[BlueDragon1981]

Anyway that being said....sorry i brought that up here. This thread deals with something else...probably should get back to the threads intention....a new thread could deal with the party system.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Good God Man!

Libby told, or arranged for Chalabi to tell Miller that Iraq had purchased aluminum tubes that can only be used for making refining centerfuges before the war. This is a 'horror story' that has been proven false.

all irrelavent. Number 1, the entire war was not based on "Aluminum tubes", it was based on 12 years of violated sanctions. But, that aside, even Joe Wilson acknowledged to the CIA, upon his return, that evidence existed that Iraq had attempted to purchase material from africa. Then he told the New York Times that no evidence existed that Iraq had succeeded, leaving out the part where Iraq had tried to purchase those items.

Libby told, or arranged for Chalabi (or Curveball) to tell Miller that al Qaeda had received extensive training on working with Chemical and Biological weapons before the war. This is a 'horror story' that has been proven false.

Again, entirely irrelavent. The story that al-Qaeda had received training in those areas is not a "lie", you dispute that it's accurate, that's an entirely different thing entirely.

Your statements concerning Joe Wilson / Valerie Plame are incongruous. Unless you are assuming that Iriving Libby never met or spoke to Judith Miller before leaking Valerie Plame's name in June of 2003.

Libby no doubt talked with dozens of reporters on a daily basis. Again, what does any of that prove?

Secretary of Rumsfeld had asked the question, but has seemed to be incapable of answering the it; "Are we capturing or killing more terrorists than the madrassas are turning out each day?"

That presumption is predicated on the (false) idea that all terrorists are equally dangerous. Terrorists that have years to train for operations (like 9/11) in a country safe from harassment, and are allowed to travel the world at their leisure, along with receiving years of intensive training, are FAR more dangerous than the thugs currently being rolled out to replace them. The "terrorists" being produced are dying at an alarming rate. Though, they are replaced by many new terrorists, those terrorists are untrained and inexperienced. What's more, they are now isolated to attacks within Iraqs borders...A development I find more comforting than having them in the United States. Finally, and this is the MOST important point, operating in their own backyard is beginning to alienate them with the population as a whole. "Death to al-Qaeda" is a chant no one thought they'd hear in the Arab street...until yesterday. Terrorist attacks in their own backyard, against fellow muslims, is resulting alienation with the arab street. What's more, it is nothing but an act of desperation of a failing insurgency.

From what I am able to read and observe, the Actions of the United States government is a catalyst for more young Muslem men to join the ranks of Radical Islam. Each day, the Actions of George W. Bush is creating more terrorists, and providing those terrorists with a proving ground in Iraq.

That's ironic given recent news. It seems as though it is al-Qaeda that is acting as a catylst. Again, you must not be paying attention to recent events.

Each person who has been 'disappeared' to a secret CIA torture prison has relatives and neighbors who, no doubt, are telling the tales of America. Do you think Karen Hughes can spread better stories about America that the families of those who are now missing?

And the sympathy for those individuals is waning as innocent muslim victims of al-Qaeda are stacking up in the arab street. Again, terrorism against civilians is an act of desperation by guerilla's and terrorists, not one of success.

Oh, and the reports of what Joe Wilson reported back to the CIA are: "It was highly unlikely Iraq and Niger had any agreement at all. Any claims were just false. All of Niger's uranium ore was committed to a different distributor, a French Company. There is no way some 500 tons of yellowcake could have been diverted to Iraq." Your word "unsuccessful" is way to strong for what had taken place - sounds like a Hannity claim to me.

Again, nice dodge. I stated that Joe Wilson told the CIA that evidence existed that Iraq had approached Niger about purchasing nuclear material. You're resting on the assertion that no sale was made, but that's irrelavent. According even to Wilson, evidence existed that Iraq had attempted to purchase that material.

The very fact that Iraq was attempting to purchase those materials and was shopping for them is enough to violate the cease fire. Period.

 

[Tgace]

So if I try to buy a rocket launcher from an undercover FBI agent but never actually BUY the launcher than I have done nothing wrong and shouldnt be arrested??

 

[sgtmac_46]

So if I try to buy a rocket launcher from an undercover FBI agent but never actually BUY the launcher than I have done nothing wrong and shouldnt be arrested??

Exactly. I mean, you only "tried" to buy the rocket launcher...you didn't succeed.

Or, if you "tried" to rob a bank, but didn't succeed in getting any money, have you committed a crime?

It's clear, even by Joe Wilson's own statements to the CIA, that evidence existed that Iraq was attempting to purchase items (A fact he avoided while spinning the issue with the New York Times). So, by their own admission, Iraq was attempting to gain material that they were restricted from having as a condition of the 1991 cease fire agreement. The very act of even attempting to shop for the materials was an act of WAR.

And for the record, I don't need Sean Hannity or anyone else to tell me what to think about the evidence that I can see and read for myself. It's clear when looking at the totality of the evidence, not just the highlighted parts that michael and others only want me to see, but a look at the WHOLE story, that the conclusions they are reaching are false conclusions and are not supported by the evidence. That is clear to anyone with enough curiosity to research the topic on more than a slogan headline level.

 

[michaeledward]

It's clear when looking at the totality of the evidence, not just the highlighted parts that michael and others only want me to see, but a look at the WHOLE story, that the conclusions they are reaching are false conclusions and are not supported by the evidence. That is clear to anyone with enough curiosity to research the topic on more than a slogan headline level.

Hey, you're the one beating the one note drum of 'Joe Wilson didn't tell everything in the New York times'.

The WHOLE story is much bigger than Joe Wilson.

Lawrence Wilkerson might be a good place to start looking, and asking questions if one wants to review torture by the United State military.

One might demand the Pentagon follow the instructions of the federal court by releasing all of the photos from Abu Ghraib, as ordered, if one was curious about the WHOLE story of Torture.

One could also be curious about why Vice President Cheney is so adamantly fighting to violate US and International law to allow the CIA to torture.

But, only if one was curious enough to look beyond the slogan headlines.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Hey, you're the one beating the one note drum of 'Joe Wilson didn't tell everything in the New York times'.

The WHOLE story is much bigger than Joe Wilson.

Lawrence Wilkerson might be a good place to start looking, and asking questions if one wants to review torture by the United State military.

One might demand the Pentagon follow the instructions of the federal court by releasing all of the photos from Abu Ghraib, as ordered, if one was curious about the WHOLE story of Torture.

One could also be curious about why Vice President Cheney is so adamantly fighting to violate US and International law to allow the CIA to torture.

But, only if one was curious enough to look beyond the slogan headlines.

One also might wonder why you change the subject from WMD to torture when the topic of Joe Wilson's statements to the CIA supporting the fact that Iraq tried to buy restricted material in Africa comes up. Again, if the current topic isn't working, change it.

 

[michaeledward]

One also might wonder why you change the subject from WMD to torture when the topic of Joe Wilson's statements to the CIA supporting the fact that Iraq tried to buy restricted material in Africa comes up. Again, if the current topic isn't working, change it.

Because I don't buy your argument.

Joe Wilson's report was made verbally to the CIA. What has been reported on the trip does not square with your claims. I just don't agree with your assessment of what Mr. Wilson reported based on what I have read concerning the topic. We aren't going to square that circle.

You accuse others of not being able to see the 'WHOLE' picture, but then claim it is a diversion when the topic is expanded to the 'WHOLE' picture.


P.S. This is the sentence with which I do not agree.

It's clear, even by Joe Wilson's own statements to the CIA, that evidence existed that Iraq was attempting to purchase items

Where is this statement made 'clear'? What is the evidence? Who in Iraq?

 

[sgtmac_46]

Because I don't buy your argument.

Joe Wilson's report was made verbally to the CIA. What has been reported on the trip does not square with your claims. I just don't agree with your assessment of what Mr. Wilson reported based on what I have read concerning the topic. We aren't going to square that circle.

You accuse others of not being able to see the 'WHOLE' picture, but then claim it is a diversion when the topic is expanded to the 'WHOLE' picture.


P.S. This is the sentence with which I do not agree.



Where is this statement made 'clear'? What is the evidence? Who in Iraq?

"Wilson's assertions -- both about what he found in Niger and what the Bush administration did with the information -- were undermined yesterday in a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report. "

"The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts."

"According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html

That according to the Washington Post, hardly "Sean Hannity".

Ironically, this information has been available since 2004. The overemphasis on who told who about Plame is a red-herring. If Libby was playing politics and committed a crime, so be it...send him to jail. But it's apples and oranges. The facts in this case don't support your conclusions. Of course, as we all know, if the facts don't support your conclusions "so much the worse for the facts".

 

[michaeledward]

"Wilson's assertions -- both about what he found in Niger and what the Bush administration did with the information -- were undermined yesterday in a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report. "

"The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts."

"According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998. "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39834-2004Jul9.html

That according to the Washington Post, hardly "Sean Hannity".

Ironically, this information has been available since 2004. The overemphasis on who told who about Plame is a red-herring. If Libby was playing politics and committed a crime, so be it...send him to jail. But it's apples and oranges. The facts in this case don't support your conclusions. Of course, as we all know, if the facts don't support your conclusions "so much the worse for the facts".

Thank you. I will weigh this report in balance with others. I don't agree with some of the assertions in this report. The Senate Intelligence Committee report, if I recall, made an error in one of the claims ascribed to Wilson.

And while you keep pushing Wilson, I think there is a far bigger issue than whether Iraq approached Niger ... although that is a link in a chain.

We will see.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Thank you. I will weigh this report in balance with others. I don't agree with some of the assertions in this report. The Senate Intelligence Committee report, if I recall, made an error in one of the claims ascribed to Wilson.

And while you keep pushing Wilson, I think there is a far bigger issue than whether Iraq approached Niger ... although that is a link in a chain.

We will see.

We shall at that. :asian:

 

[michaeledward]

Today we learn from the New York Times (a publication bruised by its own inaccurate reporting before the invasion of Iraq), that the Administration's reports of an al-Qaeda-Iraq link were derived from torture ...

Well, the Egyptians don't call it torture ... but rather, interrogating the prisoner with an understanding of the culture.

Mr. al-Libi, an al-Qaeda member aprehended in Afghanistan was turned over to the Egyptians as part of the on-going 'Rendition' process. When returned to American custody, Mr. al-Libi recanted his statements.

The Vice President and the Secretary of State are on record using Mr. al-Libi's claims as 'credible'.

Well . . . maybe not so much, eh?

This link requires a user ID ..

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/09/politics/09intel.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5094&en=6d17d434a1d2e517&hp&ex=1134104400&partner=homepage