Bush talks tough...what do you think?

[GouRonin]

I say Kudos to Bush last night. Man this guy is coming through with flying colours in this situation! What do you all think?

Today a poll said 81% of Canadians favour military action with the USA. For that many Canadians to be pissed off is something else. We're usually laid back.

 

[Cthulhu]

Well, I didn't vote for Bush, but I have to admit I've been mighty impressed with him lately. To me, during that speech, that was the first time he sounded like THE President of the U.S.

Cthulhu

 

[Xaguar]

I may be a rookie but I think Bush is only spouting off the retoric that his speech writers think the public wants to hear. I'm not saying by any means that we as a country should stand by idly and do nothing, but I don't necessarily support bombing everything and hope that we get a strike. The sheer number of innocent victims that this tactic would create is reason enough for a serious second take. In my humble opinion this would put the U.S.A in the same catagory as Bin Laden himself. So what are the other choices? Should we try to send in ground troops and take out every camp of his followers, and every village that even smells like he was there? If so then how do we gain access to Afganistan? As you can tell I don't have any answers but only more questions.

Any Ideas?

Xaguar

 

[hkg]

Well when i here Bush speak maybe even Kerry it jst seems like an exert out of a hollywood blockbuster and no real pollicies to speak of, they seem to play very heavily on the milatary side of things like im a vietnam vet etc which i think is nither here nor there. If ur a good leader then who cares if ur "reporting for duty!" I do understand tho that i dnt hav all the facts and it may be different if i lived over there.

 

[lonecoyote]

No, Hkg, I think you're right that speechwriters (who knows what Bush or Kerry really think) pay attention to Hollywood, creating dramatic phrases, and easily digestible messages that appeal to the widest possible audience. TV too, because Most speeches sound like 30 second sound bites linked together. It's all about imagery, and getting people to have knee jerk responses to certain phrases. Is it different in Scotland?

 

[hkg]

No, Hkg, I think you're right that speechwriters (who knows what Bush or Kerry really think) pay attention to Hollywood, creating dramatic phrases, and easily digestible messages that appeal to the widest possible audience. TV too, because Most speeches sound like 30 second sound bites linked together. It's all about imagery, and getting people to have knee jerk responses to certain phrases. Is it different in Scotland?

I agree that it is about havin that reaction but to be honest they wouldnt get away with it in Britain as the people would be like "fair enough but what are ur actual policies (or they would get laughed off stage!)" The problem here is that Tony Blair is a good speaker who talks alot about his policies but rarely does what he says, which is a common trait amonst politicians. I just wish it was about truth and not all this crap that they all spit out!

Regards

 

[rmcrobertson]

I think that unlike Howard Zinn, George McGovern, Eugene McCarthy, John F. Kennedy, George Bush Sr., Bob Dole, Bob Kerrey, John Kerrey, and Colin Powell, this guy has never had anybody shoot at him in a war.

 

[deadhand31]

Well, Robert, funny thing about Kerry. He won't let his medical records be released regarding what earned him his purple hearts. That raises an eyebrow, especially when there are veterans who served with him who attest that several of the wounds were self-inflicted. Not to mention that in some of his vietnam footage that was displayed at the DNC, he had bullets striking water DIGITALLY INSERTED into the footage. Think about that for just a little.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Well, Robert, funny thing about Kerry. He won't let his medical records be released regarding what earned him his purple hearts. That raises an eyebrow, especially when there are veterans who served with him who attest that several of the wounds were self-inflicted. Not to mention that in some of his vietnam footage that was displayed at the DNC, he had bullets striking water DIGITALLY INSERTED into the footage. Think about that for just a little.

Bush hasn't released his medical records either.

The veterans you've indicated DID NOT serve with John Kerry on his boat. One has retracted his allegations against the Senator. There is no proof that he "self inflicted" the wounds.

Republican Senator John McCain has publicly condemned the attacks against Kerry's record.

The vets on his boat has backed up Kerry's valor with testimony.

I've provided ample evidence vindicating Kerry's record in another thread, which you've ignored, apparently.

If you want to propogate a lie, Deadhand31, do so. But given the weight of evidence, you'll look rather silly doing it. These attacks are the same ones used by Bush against other vets like McCain and Cleland.

Here's the link to the thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16375&page=2&pp=15

Here's a link...one of several... posted there.

http://www.eriposte.com/media/liars_inc/swiftboat.htm

Regards,


Steve

 

[rmcrobertson]

Axly, Sparky those records were already released. Yawl might want to refer to more sources than Michael Savage.

And incidentally, have you got hold of all of George Bush, our esteemed President's, National Guard records?

And records aside, here's the long and the short of it: Kerry was in Vietnam, and got shot at. Earned three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star, a Silver Star, and whatever the circumstances were (I shall capitalize for the benefit of the slower Republicans) HE WAS ACTUALLY THERE AND HE WAS ACTUALLY AWARDED THE MEDALS. Gore was in Vietnam, and was not. George Bush Jr. was in Texas and Arkansas, and used his daddy's connections to get into the ANG, and stay there.

Again, here's my question: why would working people assiduously defend the guys who look down upon them with contempt?

I repeat, and I would love to hear an actual refutation of this reality: unlike Hizzoner, Howard Zinn, Bush Sr., Bob Dole, McGovern, JFK, McCarthy, Powell, Kerry, Kerrey (again I capitalize) HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN SHOT AT IN A WAR.

Are we learning yet?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Again, here's my question: why would working people assiduously defend the guys who look down upon them with contempt?

Because he talks the talk, and they don't note he isn't walking the walk.

His folksy "I'm one of ya'll" charm gets them. He seems provincial and far removed from the wealth he was born to. They ignore his behavior and hang on his "tough talk"--his appeals to the emotions of a hurt nation with junk food rhetoric that gives fast satisfaction along with empty promises.

He's wrapped himself in the flag, grabbed a Bible and that is enough for them. They can avoid the unpleasant realities of a record deficit, broken campaign promises, and a philosophical reversal on his ideas on foreign policy. They can look the other way and ignore his failed education initiatives, his tax plan that has burdened the middle class, and his gutting of environmental programs.

The real problems, Rush and Savage tell them, are generated by pointy headed intellectuals in universities across the nation. Forget those industry bosses who close down the plant and give huge contributions to the Republican party. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Nightingale]

why are we responding to a three year old thread??

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Don't know. Somebody picked it back up.


Bush is still talking tough, though...



Regards,


Steve

 

[deadhand31]

Perhaps one should read the book "Unfit for Command". It has more than 60 eyewitness accounts of Kerry in vietnam which put his performance into question. Now, regarding Kerry in Nam, I have a few points:

1. Yes, he did willingly go and serve. That is something to be commended.
Yes, he was shot at. Yes, he did save a person's life by pulling him out of a river. These are things to commend Kerry for.

2. If you look at his ads past and present, you will see that current ads no longer have the picture of him and his swift boat team. There was a cease and desist order by several of the surviving members of those pictures that they did not want to be represented in his ad.

3. He came back, and spat on his veterans, calling them war criminals because of the "Free-fire" and "interdiction" zones. He said he threw his medals over the fence, then said ribbons.

Then people blast Bush for his guard service. They claim that he used his daddy's influence. Good greif, they need to understand a few things:

1. There were tons of National Guard openings at that time. Anyone who signed on and passed the tests were very likely to get in. Just because somebody goes into a different branch in the military, doesn't make them a draft dodger. My father went to serve in the Navy during Vietnam, does that make him a draft dodger?

2. He may have used his father's influence in getting a piloting position. I don't agree with that, but what's done is done.

3. He did ask for some time off. He made up this time before the year was through.

4. When he was transferred to a post in Alabama, he wasn't grounded as others say. Basically, he was transferred to a post where he wouldn't have been piloting anything. Since he wasn't piloting anything, he didn't take the pilot's physical. So in an area where there was no flying going to be done, he wasn't allowed to fly.

 

[rmcrobertson]

I see, "Deadhand," (speaking of talking tough) that you're unacquainted with most of the facts. And I would avoid them too, if I were trying to defend the President on this issue.

First, I see you couldn't get away from the facts of Kerrey's service in Vietnam. However, you are wrong about who he subsequently blamed for the War and its conduct, as you'd know if you'd bothered to look up what he said. He blamed Washington, and he blamed generals.

Second--sorry, no, Bush did not simply take a slot in the Guard. He was somewhere around 107th on a list for a place, at a time when the Texas ANG had no openings. Somehow--well somehow my foot, it's established that his Dad made some calls--he got in. Hm.

According to an article by David Halberstram in, "Vanity Fair," Dick Cheney applied for and received five student exemptions. Our Decretary of Defense applied for and received seven.

The problem is not that they did this. The problem is that these guys have been hawkish on Vietnam ever since, and have used that to justify their hawkishness on aan unnecessary war in Iraq.

Oh yes--they've also gone out of their way to develop and to support smears on the patriotism and military service of people like Kerrey, Max Cleland--and John McCain, and other Republicans who did serve and who also don't see eye-to-eye with them.

It's shameful; it's hypocritical; and while I expect this sort of crap from politicians, I continue to be disappointed in the utter failure to have any respect for veterans.

Seems to me that if Bush et al meant what they said about patriotism, they'd draw some lines, politics or not.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Perhaps one should read the book "Unfit for Command". It has more than 60 eyewitness accounts of Kerry in vietnam which put his performance into question.

I guess I'd be more interested in reading "Unfit for Command" if it hadn't already been proven to be, well, inaccurate. And full of lies.

See:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13267-2004Aug18.html

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Perhaps one should read the book "Unfit for Command". It has more than 60 eyewitness accounts of Kerry in vietnam which put his performance into question. Now, regarding Kerry in Nam, I have a few points:

1. Yes, he did willingly go and serve. That is something to be commended.
Yes, he was shot at. Yes, he did save a person's life by pulling him out of a river. These are things to commend Kerry for.

Well, was he a hero then, or wasn't he? Make up your mind. The book states otherwise, yet you seem to think so. Forgive me for saying this, but you're flip floppin' on this one.

We've provided more than enough evidence to refute the book's allegations.

2. If you look at his ads past and present, you will see that current ads no longer have the picture of him and his swift boat team. There was a cease and desist order by several of the surviving members of those pictures that they did not want to be represented in his ad.

Post a link, please. As far as I know, only one member of his crew had any issues with him...and he never questioned Kerry's bravery. The rest of his crew seems pretty supportive. That's good enough for most of us. The Special Forces lieutenant whose life he saved seems to think so, too.

3. He came back, and spat on his veterans, calling them war criminals because of the "Free-fire" and "interdiction" zones. He said he threw his medals over the fence, then said ribbons.

He didn't spit in anybody's face...but I'll let you have your metaphor. There were war crimes. They were documented. I served with people that witnessed them first hand. I served with two who committed them. People up and down the chain of command knew about them and attempted to suppress them. Colin Powell was tasked with defusing the My Lai incident. Would you like to start a separate thread on this? It might be fun.


1. There were tons of National Guard openings at that time. Anyone who signed on and passed the tests were very likely to get in. Just because somebody goes into a different branch in the military, doesn't make them a draft dodger.

Unless you can provide documentation that it was "easy" to get into the Guard, you best back off of that. My recollection is that people were lining up to get in. I won't call Guard duty "draft dodging." I do call it cowardice when his father pulls strings for him to get in the Guard when pilots are getting shot down in large numbers over Viet Nam.

My father went to serve in the Navy during Vietnam, does that make him a draft dodger?

Nope. Not at all.


And Kerry wasn't a coward.


Regards,


Steve