Bunkai in Pyung Ahn Sa Dan (videos)

[Makalakumu]

Sweet! :ubercool: My new video camera will be here soon I will record our version. It is so similar and yet so different. For example, you have 3 steps gong forward, ours moves backwards! After the backfist, facing to 430 and 730, we use cat stances. In fact, ours has cats everywhere! I think Nick Cerio did that...

But anyway look for a much-less-polished version of this kata this weekend. I don't know where I can host it so I might just have to email it to you, is that OK? I have only been learning this form since November so I mostly only have the most obvious applications...

Send it to Bob Hubbard at MT. He wants to create a huge member video library for this site. Don't worry too much about your experience level. Everyone goes through that point eventually. I would love to see your version!

 

[IMP]

Hi,

Can the Pyung Ahn forms be performed as one full Hyung?

Ian

 

[Makalakumu]

Can the Pyung Ahn forms be performed as one full Hyung?

Yes, but what I'm starting to realize is that each of the Pyung Ahns has a character in and of itself and combining them minimizes this.

 

[IMP]

Yes, but what I'm starting to realize is that each of the Pyung Ahns has a character in and of itself and combining them minimizes this.

Hmmm.... A character in itself? So performing them together makes it one blunt characteristic?

Ian

 

[MBuzzy]

UpNorth,

There are a few things in this form that I would like to discuss if you'll indulge me. I have been studying it this past week and there are a few minor differences between what I am being taught and your video presentation.

First off, I was taught that on moves 5 and 8, the Yup Cha Gi is done with a Kwon Do Kong Kyuk, rather than a sang dan soo do mahk kee (please correct me if I'm mistaken on how you are performing this hyung). It makes very little difference as to the applications of the form, I just found this interesting.

The most interesting difference that I have found (and what I am being taught is different from every resource that I have...so I am questioning which is correct) deals with the Ahp Cha Nut Gi sequences around move #14. In your performance, the transition move is turning into Jun Gul Jaseh with your hands chambered in fists at about shoulder level. Master Choe explained this to me as moving into jun gul jaseh, but executing a Sang Soo Sand Dan Mahk Kee, only with your palms facing your body. Then in a break motion, moving into the chambered position with your fists at shoulder level. Then, before the Ahp Cha Nut Gi, turning the right fist over so that your palm is facing your body. Master Choe's explaination of this was that you are putting your open hands inside and grabbing your opponent's Do Bok, then then twisting the material for a better grip and kicking his midsection.

Hopefully you can understand that description.....kind of long winded - but a very interesting difference. This could be either because I am in Korea and things are different here or it is simply a different interpretation.

Other than that, the execution is the same.

As for the first movements, I really liked your interpretation and the resulting Ill soo Shik. I tend to take a more simplistic approach (either because of a lack of experience, my instructor, or just my personality) and I interpret these as simple Jung Dan and Sang Dan Soo Do Mahk Kee. Of course, blocks are much less interesting and don't lend themselves to good Ill soo shik. I have one reference by GM Pak Ho Sik showing this being applied as a "stick block" basically adding a staff into the equation. I'm not quite sure where he got that idea though.

I'm curious what your thought are as to the differences in styles and performances and my more simplistic approach to form interpretation. Thank you!

Tang Soo!

 

[Makalakumu]

There are a few things in this form that I would like to discuss if you'll indulge me. I have been studying it this past week and there are a few minor differences between what I am being taught and your video presentation.

No problem! Feel free to jump in here anytime. This forum is about stuff that goes on in my school, but it is open for anyone (regardless of school or style) to comment so that we can all learn from each other.

First off, I was taught that on moves 5 and 8, the Yup Cha Gi is done with a Kwon Do Kong Kyuk, rather than a sang dan soo do mahk kee (please correct me if I'm mistaken on how you are performing this hyung). It makes very little difference as to the applications of the form, I just found this interesting.

We practice it with an open hand to show that this technique is a grabbing move. In the move previous to this, we used a joint manipulation to unbalance our uke, making it easier to pull them into this strike.

The most interesting difference that I have found (and what I am being taught is different from every resource that I have...so I am questioning which is correct) deals with the Ahp Cha Nut Gi sequences around move #14. In your performance, the transition move is turning into Jun Gul Jaseh with your hands chambered in fists at about shoulder level. Master Choe explained this to me as moving into jun gul jaseh, but executing a Sang Soo Sand Dan Mahk Kee, only with your palms facing your body. Then in a break motion, moving into the chambered position with your fists at shoulder level. Then, before the Ahp Cha Nut Gi, turning the right fist over so that your palm is facing your body. Master Choe's explaination of this was that you are putting your open hands inside and grabbing your opponent's Do Bok, then then twisting the material for a better grip and kicking his midsection.

That isn't a bad application. However, you may find it a little difficult through a front kick if you've got a scarfhold on your uke. Remember, the kick doesn't have to be a front kick, it can be any kick...including moo ruep cha gi.

What you are describing is how shotokan practicioners practice this form. Our form has divested itself of this move for some reason. I'm not sure why. Anyway, the application for how we do it comes from an attempt at a two handed grab from your uke. Tori slips both hands to the inside and kicks uke in the mid-section and then follows up with a one-two combination. Very simple. Very effective.

As for the first movements, I really liked your interpretation and the resulting Ill soo Shik. I tend to take a more simplistic approach (either because of a lack of experience, my instructor, or just my personality) and I interpret these as simple Jung Dan and Sang Dan Soo Do Mahk Kee.

That certainly is one way of seeing it, but, as with any forms, they are more then meets the eye. My suggestion is to try and use the techniques for what you think they are for AND to listen to your teacher. Think about what you think will actually work for you.

Of course, blocks are much less interesting and don't lend themselves to good Ill soo shik.

Sure they do. Blocks are a good start for any Ill Soo Shik. What you need to keep in mind is that what would seem to be a block can actually be something much more...and in fact, at one point in the forms history, it was much more...somethings in the forms have been changed for a variety of motives...but that is another story.

I have one reference by GM Pak Ho Sik showing this being applied as a "stick block" basically adding a staff into the equation. I'm not quite sure where he got that idea though.

Again, my suggestion is to give it a try. If you use real wood, go with light contact, if it's a padded stick, whack away. If it was successful for you, great! If not, think about it some more and ask more questions.

I'm curious what your thought are as to the differences in styles and performances and my more simplistic approach to form interpretation.

What you are describing is how Koreans have traditionally taught these forms. And I'm not going to say that their interpretations are wrong. I will say, however, that their are other interpretations...including interpretations from where these forms came from...Okinawa.

The roots of this hyung are important!

Tang Soo!!!

upnorthkyosa

 

[JasonASmith]

Let me ask this, since I am new to this...
I can see an obvious Karate(is it Shotokan?) influence in some of the moves, which is cool from my point of view...
Are all TSD forms done at this speed?
I have got the point in my(Shotokan) dojo that there is a definite rhythm to the movements within the kata/form, but the movements that I have seen in the kata that we do are done slower...Is there a point to doing the kata/form at a faster pace(some practical application maybe?)?
Please note that I am NOT "stirring the pot" here...I am simply curious

 

[Makalakumu]

Let me ask this, since I am new to this...
I can see an obvious Karate(is it Shotokan?) influence in some of the moves, which is cool from my point of view...

Our forms are basically the same as shotokan forms. There are a few minor differences however...

Are all TSD forms done at this speed?

No. This is the way my teacher taught us to do them, however. And when you first learn them, you do go much slower.

I have got the point in my(Shotokan) dojo that there is a definite rhythm to the movements within the kata/form, but the movements that I have seen in the kata that we do are done slower...Is there a point to doing the kata/form at a faster pace(some practical application maybe?)?

There is still definite rhythm to the forms, but that is subjective and determined by what you are doing with the moves. Each form, ultimately, is going to look different because we all see different applications in them. The reason for the speed is simple...applying bunkai should happen quickly, thus we practice the applications with speed.

Please note that I am NOT "stirring the pot" here...I am simply curious.

No problem. Those are great questions!

 

[MBuzzy]

If you take a look at the video of Pyung Ahn Sa (Sar) Dan on this page, that is exactly how I was taught to execute the hyung. Our speed is somewhere between this video and your video.

I can definately see how an open hand makes more sense in preparation for grabbing your opponent.

I gave the stick block idea and try and I'm not sure that works so well. Obviously, GM Pak Ho Sik sees it differently. I am sure that the stick block could lead into another attack using the staff, but it would not blend well with the next moves in the hyung.

I'm very interested in your comment about blocks being more at some point in the forms' history. If you wouldn't mind either starting a new thread to explain or posting a resource in which I could look into this for myself, I would appreciate it very much! Thanks again!

 

[Makalakumu]

MBuzzy

Feel free to lurk around in my school's forum. Take a look at the topics that we are discussing. There is alot of good TSD information here...especially if you are interested in knowing more about the forms.

Here is the short explanation regarding my comment about the blocks...

In older versions of the form, the Sang Soo Ahneso Pakuro Mahkee did not have the fist and forearm connection. If you can imagine doing this technique so that your top fist was level with the side of your own neck and your bottom fist was equal to your own solar plexus, then you can see what this technique used to be...a double strike. The bottom line is that almost all of our forms have been changed in some way either out of ignorance or in order to hide application.

Here is an example of how the technique that we are discussion was used...this application comes from Pyung Ahn Sam Dan btw, but the double strike technique is the same in both. The only difference is in the follow up technique. In pyung ahn sa dan, it is a joint manipulation.

upnorthkyosa

 

[EmperorOfKentukki]

The question was asked, "Can the Pyong Ahns be performed as a single form?" Yes...actually. If at the end of each form, instead of returning to Choon Bi you make the first move of the next form 90 degrees to your left, you end up walking a pattern on the floor you might recognize as a swashitka. This is actually an ancient Buddhist symbol representing the Karmic Wheel. As to 'destroying the character' of the individual forms.....do not be concerned with this. If you know the forms....you know the forms. Each section of the wheel may be different, just as each phase of your existence is different.

The Emperor

 

[Makalakumu]

The question was asked, "Can the Pyong Ahns be performed as a single form?" Yes...actually. If at the end of each form, instead of returning to Choon Bi you make the first move of the next form 90 degrees to your left, you end up walking a pattern on the floor you might recognize as a swashitka. This is actually an ancient Buddhist symbol representing the Karmic Wheel. As to 'destroying the character' of the individual forms.....do not be concerned with this. If you know the forms....you know the forms. Each section of the wheel may be different, just as each phase of your existence is different.

The Emperor

The Karmic Wheel? I'm going to have to give that a try. As to destrying the character of the forms, I'm most concerned with the beginning and the end of each one. I bet that 90 turn smooths things out.

 

[IMP]

The question was asked, "Can the Pyong Ahns be performed as a single form?" Yes...actually. If at the end of each form, instead of returning to Choon Bi you make the first move of the next form 90 degrees to your left, you end up walking a pattern on the floor you might recognize as a swashitka. This is actually an ancient Buddhist symbol representing the Karmic Wheel. As to 'destroying the character' of the individual forms.....do not be concerned with this. If you know the forms....you know the forms. Each section of the wheel may be different, just as each phase of your existence is different.

The Emperor

Hmmmm... makes sense. Thanks!

Ian

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

This is the closing move in Pyung Ahn Sa Dan. What applications do you see?

I've always been taught this as finishing one opponent and stepping to his side (since he's now on the ground) to block another opponent behind you (whom you could then dispatch as you see fit).

I find it interesting, going back to the first part of this thread, that you don't seem to cross before the double-blocks at the start of this form. Is that just the video compression?

 

[Makalakumu]

No, we don't cross the hands at the beginning of the form. The reason why is because the move is a simple block/strike combination. Even though I've portrayed the next move to joint lock that takes uki down, it could very easily be o-soto-gari. I teach both in fact. The latter is usually easier for the students and it take more time to get the former.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

No, we don't cross the hands at the beginning of the form. The reason why is because the move is a simple block/strike combination. Even though I've portrayed the next move to joint lock that takes uki down, it could very easily be o-soto-gari. I teach both in fact. The latter is usually easier for the students and it take more time to get the former.

A simple block/strike combination? All the more reason to cross! Master C. S. Kim is fond of saying, "You can't finish if you don't start," or a variation thereof; he usually does this to illustrate the importance of choon bee jase, but I think it applies here as well. I can't think of any blocking technique, in any form, done without crossing first both for defense and for power. Even blocks have to have something behind them.

Btw, what does "o-soto-gari" mean? I don't know much Japanese terminology.

 

[Makalakumu]

A simple block/strike combination? All the more reason to cross! Master C. S. Kim is fond of saying, "You can't finish if you don't start," or a variation thereof; he usually does this to illustrate the importance of choon bee jase, but I think it applies here as well. I can't think of any blocking technique, in any form, done without crossing first both for defense and for power. Even blocks have to have something behind them.

First of all, just to make sure we are talking about the same thing, the move we are talking about is the opening move in pyung ahn sa dan. If you perform the move with a cross of the hands, fine. All it does is change the angle of the strike by turning it into more a soo do. You won't be able to use the same kyusho point, but you may be able to find one that you can hammer at that angle.

The way we do it uses more of a chang kwon and targets St-9 or St - 5.

Btw, what does "o-soto-gari" mean? I don't know much Japanese terminology.

This is a major outside reap. See the attached video clip of the technique.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

First of all, just to make sure we are talking about the same thing, the move we are talking about is the opening move in pyung ahn sa dan. If you perform the move with a cross of the hands, fine. All it does is change the angle of the strike by turning it into more a soo do. You won't be able to use the same kyusho point, but you may be able to find one that you can hammer at that angle.

The way we do it uses more of a chang kwon and targets St-9 or St - 5.

We're talking about the same move. I'm not sure I understand what you mean, though (mostly because I don't know what kyusho means). In fact, could you state clearly what that move is supposed to be doing? I always practice it as a double-block, but the soo do idea has piqued my interest, especially because it strikes me that you wouldn't need to block both high and mid at the same time very often. In any case, the way you show it in the video, it looks like you're just putting up your hands, which I can't see having any kind of power whatsoever. Even if you did it like you would for a middle knife hand block, where it's not so much a cross as bringing both hands to one hip, that would seem more effective than just putting up your hands --- unless I've totally mistaken what I'm seeing in the video, which is entirely possible.

This is a major outside reap. See the attached video clip of the technique.

Thanks! You could have just said sweep, and I would have understood, though. That's a component of quite a few ill soo sik combinations for me. (I know there are other ways to sweep, such as from the side of the foot, under the arch, but that's what I think of first when I hear the word "sweep")

 

[Makalakumu]

We're talking about the same move. I'm not sure I understand what you mean, though (mostly because I don't know what kyusho means).

Kyusho are strike points. Tsubo is another word for them. There is an entire science behind striking these...

In fact, could you state clearly what that move is supposed to be doing? I always practice it as a double-block, but the soo do idea has piqued my interest, especially because it strikes me that you wouldn't need to block both high and mid at the same time very often.

If someone threw a punch and you blocked it with the upper hand and struck them simultaineously with the other hand, then you would be doing roughly what we are doing.

In any case, the way you show it in the video, it looks like you're just putting up your hands, which I can't see having any kind of power whatsoever. Even if you did it like you would for a middle knife hand block, where it's not so much a cross as bringing both hands to one hip, that would seem more effective than just putting up your hands --- unless I've totally mistaken what I'm seeing in the video, which is entirely possible.

The power is there, but I'm also trying NOT to hit my uki, so that changes things. If you think about the rotation of the hip that you see and the way uki is coming in and just imagine this happening even faster, then you are going to see some serious sting.

Anyway, for some of the strike points, sometimes you don't want to hit them full power...especially if your intent is to NOT kill the other guy.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Kyusho are strike points. Tsubo is another word for them. There is an entire science behind striking these...

I see. Couldn't you have just said "strike points?"

If someone threw a punch and you blocked it with the upper hand and struck them simultaineously with the other hand, then you would be doing roughly what we are doing.

That's what I figured, and where I see the soo do coming into effect. All the more reason, from my perspective, to cross before blocking, so that the hand doing the block is coming up with some power to move that fist out of the way for your counterattack.

The power is there, but I'm also trying NOT to hit my uki, so that changes things. If you think about the rotation of the hip that you see and the way uki is coming in and just imagine this happening even faster, then you are going to see some serious sting.

Anyway, for some of the strike points, sometimes you don't want to hit them full power...especially if your intent is to NOT kill the other guy.

I'm just going to have to take your word on that, though I still think I disagree. No matter how much you snap that, it's still easier to get power (and controlled power) by crossing and snapping, as I see it. In terms of actual combat, if it was a life-or-death fight, I think I would rather see my opponent down and gasping for air than risk a light technique. Control is a beautiful thing, if you work at it.