Bunkai genuine?

[TSDTexan]

Do you mean reconnecting with HC Hwang and the Soo Bahk Do group? If so, as I understand it, Hwang Kee really didn't pass along a systematic way of studying the Chil Sung forms either, at least in the sense that bunkai sets are used in some Okinawan ryu-ha.

Korean styles in general aren't the way to go if you want to study form applications in a cohesive fashion, but you know that already. Frankly, there's more talk about it on the web than it actually exists (in my personal experience). Yeah, the Okinawan styles are more likely to do it. You'll still have to find the right teacher and the right situation as many nominally Okinawan karate schools in the west don't have the goods either.

Yes, Hwang, HC's Moo Duk Kwan, and their current Soo Bank Do art form. As I was trained in the artform TSD as the Moo Duk Kwan interpreted it. As the 50s came to a close, Kee left the Taekwando/Taesoodo/TKD unification efforts, and incorporated the Korean Soobahkdo Association, and started to highly modify his TSD curriculum until it was no longer TSD.

There were a number of factors for this, but one of which, He couldn't get a trademark on the name "tang so do" as it is too generic. Hence the move away from Korean Karate, towards a depper connection to CMAs.

Sometime after Kee's son HC took over the Moo Duk Kwan, and when the Organization was in the US, sometime around 1990, the Moo Duk Kwan formally registered a trademark on the fist logo, the name "Moo Duk Kwan" (R). This lead a lot of independent schools and masters to either stop teaching TSD and start teaching SBD, and re inter the MDK organization.

Other folks, remained independent, teaching old school tsd and had to drop the name. As for an example, For my lineage has had black belts awarded at first Dan, but after the end of the late fifties, Dan's were being issued midnight blue belts. This is why if a student of mine makes it to the 1st Dan, she or he receives a black belt.

If I were to rejoin the MDK some of my instructors would probably take deep exception. It violates our "tradition" (as an aside, how much tradition has held back real valid innovation?)

But back to your point, perhaps there is no Bun Hae or Bunkai, to SBD's new forms, as like the Okinawan masters had/have.

Would overhauling the kata to make

ki cho hyung il bu

turn back into kihon kata

Gain more than it loses? Is one objectively better then the other? I doubt I will ever go to Okinawa to spend 10 years relearning Karate just to gain an authentic bunkai. And I dont have time or inclination to reverse engineer, test and document bunkai, while searching for meaning in it. It is almost like a roarshach inkblot test.

 

[dancingalone]

But back to your point, perhaps there is no Bun Hae or Bunkai, to SBD's new forms, as like the Okinawan masters had/have.

I'm sure plenty of people have come up with interesting, perhaps even compelling, interpretations of the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho patterns. But, they are not official, handed down from the mountain, ones from GM Hwang if that is important to one.

Then again, perhaps this could be something GM HC Hwang adds... or whomever his successor will be. If the US Soo Bahk Do Federation seeks to standardize and codify (trademark and copyright too) their art, this seems like a fairly obvious place to work some wonders.

 

[dancingalone]

Would overhauling the kata to make

ki cho hyung il bu


turn back into kihon kata



Gain more than it loses? Is one objectively better then the other?

I don't know what you would gain. The Shotokan folks, at least at the org level, generally don't practice bunkai in any comprehensive fashion either. Trading one basic form for its Japanese cognate seems pointless to me.

I doubt I will ever go to Okinawa to spend 10 years relearning Karate just to gain an authentic bunkai.

That's the catch. If you are hung up on 'authentic' bunkai you have to practice a style that has such a thing to begin with, then you need to find a teacher from that lineage that actually had some if not all of it transmitted to him. And even then, I sometimes think we would discover that the bunkai would stem back at best to the 1900's for most of these styles (I think you can have better luck with the Naha styles since they are more recent imports from China).

Best not to worry about so-called 'authentic' teachings in my opinion, unless you're interested in studying a koryu art that is designed for historical preservation.

And I dont have time or inclination to reverse engineer, test and document bunkai, while searching for meaning in it. It is almost like a roarshach inkblot test.

A handful of people have already done it for you. McCarthy, Abernethy, etc. They are readily found and easy to communicate with if this is something you're interested in. Then again, just finding some local capable instruction in Hapkido (aikido, judo, wrestling for that matter) will do wonders for deepening your understanding of kata.

 

[Tez3]

My other Dan grade is in TSD, we don't do Kee Cho Hyung Il Boo as shown in the first video but as it's done in the second. This is the way the UK Tang Soo Do ( Soo Bahk) Do Federation tell people to do it, for guidance Grand master Kang UK Lee's book is used. I've said before I like TSD well enough but massively prefer Wado Ryu.

When you say you can't go to Japan to learn 'authentic' Bunkai are you suggesting that Bunkai that has been developed aren't genuine or that there is only one interpretation that is 'authentic'? There has been a lot of work done by martial artists in Bunkai which you could easily follow.

 

[TSDTexan]

Been readibg

I don't know what you would gain. The Shotokan folks, at least at the org level, generally don't practice bunkai in any comprehensive fashion either. Trading one basic form for its Japanese cognate seems pointless to me.



That's the catch. If you are hung up on 'authentic' bunkai you have to practice a style that has such a thing to begin with, then you need to find a teacher from that lineage that actually had some if not all of it transmitted to him. And even then, I sometimes think we would discover that the bunkai would stem back at best to the 1900's for most of these styles (I think you can have better luck with the Naha styles since they are more recent imports from China).

Best not to worry about so-called 'authentic' teachings in my opinion, unless you're interested in studying a koryu art that is designed for historical preservation.



A handful of people have already done it for you. McCarthy, Abernethy, etc. They are readily found and easy to communicate with if this is something you're interested in. Then again, just finding some local capable instruction in Hapkido (aikido, judo, wrestling for that matter) will do wonders for deepening your understanding of kata.

I have recently obtained some hapkido course books and Dvds, and am recording and preparing to submit my videos at an online hapkido dojang, that help sponsor this place.

Feels nice being a white belt for a change, in a new nontraditional combat art form.

I am looking forward to having "ah so" moments.

 

[TSDTexan]

My other Dan grade is in TSD, we don't do Kee Cho Hyung Il Boo as shown in the first video but as it's done in the second. This is the way the UK Tang Soo Do ( Soo Bahk) Do Federation tell people to do it, for guidance Grand master Kang UK Lee's book is used. I've said before I like TSD well enough but massively prefer Wado Ryu.

When you say you can't go to Japan to learn 'authentic' Bunkai are you suggesting that Bunkai that has been developed aren't genuine or that there is only one interpretation that is 'authentic'? There has been a lot of work done by martial artists in Bunkai which you could easily follow.

Well if it isn't the hidden/lost bunkai then it is an alternative to it. There is a thread in anthoer spot here that dives into "What is bunkai?" There are some in that thread that disbelieve in bunkai altogether, and others who put forward the notion that bunkai actually is the combat system itself, of karate and not free sparing-esqe kumite.

I was meditating on the idea that the kata's had encoded a series of movements that are like kings rook to c1 Check, player2: responds player1 next move Checkmate

 

[TSDTexan]

I try never to use my phone for things, I can't decide whether it's me or the phone.

I hear you 5x5. I have a 6.3in. screen smart phone, and usually it works right.

 

[Tez3]

Well if it isn't the hidden/lost bunkai then it is an alternative to it. There is a thread in anthoer spot here that dives into "What is bunkai?" There are some in that thread that disbelieve in bunkai altogether, and others who put forward the notion that bunkai actually is the combat system itself, of karate and not free sparing-esqe kumite.

I was meditating on the idea that the kata's had encoded a series of movements that are like kings rook to c1 Check, player2: responds player1 next move Checkmate

The problem with that though was that the ones who didn't believe in Bunkai etc weren't people who had actually practiced Bunkai or even kata/patterns and had only taken karate for a matter of months. There are of course experienced karate people who don't believe in Bunkai but you can respect their opinions if they at least train kata and karate. To practice something else and rubbish another style is just plain silly.
The Bunkai being the combat system itself rather than the kumite could be taken as a view because karate was designed for civilian unarmed defence rather than as a 'fighting offensive' system so that view could have merit. That one wouldn't practice fighting if you were only ever going to use it for defending yourself is a reasonable idea I think, I don't agree but it's reasonable.

 

[TSDTexan]

There are of course experienced karate people who don't believe in Bunkai but you can respect their opinions if they at least train kata and karate. To practice something else and rubbish another style is just plain silly.

Well, personally I dont trash anyone's style but I groan when some tells me they are a MA, and I ask what art.... And they say something like Taebo/ cardio kickboxking. That or they say Tai Chi... And I ask "how much Chuan have you ever used in real life?" And they look at me with a blank look. "Oh I just do it for the health benefits" (inside I die a little).

 

[Tez3]

Well, personally I dont trash anyone's style but I groan when some tells me they are a MA, and I ask what art.... And they say something like Taebo/ cardio kickboxking. That or they say Tai Chi... And I ask "how much Chuan have you ever used in real life?" And they look at me with a blank look. "Oh I just do it for the health benefits" (inside I die a little).

Usually goes along with people making a karate 'chop' with their hands and making weird noises they think sounds like a kiai ( if they actually knew what one was)!

 

[TSDTexan]

Ever figure out why Bruce Lee did screaming monkey sounds?

 

[DaveB]

Yes, Hwang, HC's Moo Duk Kwan, and their current Soo Bank Do art form. As I was trained in the artform TSD as the Moo Duk Kwan interpreted it. As the 50s came to a close, Kee left the Taekwando/Taesoodo/TKD unification efforts, and incorporated the Korean Soobahkdo Association, and started to highly modify his TSD curriculum until it was no longer TSD.

There were a number of factors for this, but one of which, He couldn't get a trademark on the name "tang so do" as it is too generic. Hence the move away from Korean Karate, towards a depper connection to CMAs.

Sometime after Kee's son HC took over the Moo Duk Kwan, and when the Organization was in the US, sometime around 1990, the Moo Duk Kwan formally registered a trademark on the fist logo, the name "Moo Duk Kwan" (R). This lead a lot of independent schools and masters to either stop teaching TSD and start teaching SBD, and re inter the MDK organization.

Other folks, remained independent, teaching old school tsd and had to drop the name. As for an example, For my lineage has had black belts awarded at first Dan, but after the end of the late fifties, Dan's were being issued midnight blue belts. This is why if a student of mine makes it to the 1st Dan, she or he receives a black belt.

If I were to rejoin the MDK some of my instructors would probably take deep exception. It violates our "tradition" (as an aside, how much tradition has held back real valid innovation?)

But back to your point, perhaps there is no Bun Hae or Bunkai, to SBD's new forms, as like the Okinawan masters had/have.

Would overhauling the kata to make

ki cho hyung il bu

turn back into kihon kata

Gain more than it loses? Is one objectively better then the other? I doubt I will ever go to Okinawa to spend 10 years relearning Karate just to gain an authentic bunkai. And I dont have time or inclination to reverse engineer, test and document bunkai, while searching for meaning in it. It is almost like a roarshach inkblot test.

It sounds like your decision will be mostly political in nature.

Those who don't believe in applications of kata always have an agenda. Either it's a kid trashing traditional ma because he can't see the link between what we do and the dogma of MMA, or its a guy who spent 40 years marching up and down the dojo doing basic punches kicks and blocks who now feels that decades of training are being invalidated by the range of skills being introduced through application study.

The fact is that if you step out of the Karate bubble, the arts themail cultures that birthed Karate all use kata and they all encode fighting methods in them. We know this. It's documented, it's in every CMA school. Debate over.

Now whether or not a person wishes to study kata is up to them, but for me it is the most valuable aspect of MA after fitness.

Btw, all thats needed to fix the Korean kihon form is the rhythm of the central three punches. It's not 1,1,1. It's 1,1-2.

This introduces the student to the application of rhythm in fighting (e.g. drawing a response with the first blow that you intercept and roll over with the 1-2). This opens the door to exploring the possible variations of striking rhythm, from 1,1,1 to 1-2-3.

Combining this with the three timings of the punches, (before on or after the step), with th with the three stepping options (half step, full step and spin) and with the reverse punch alternative gives rise to a whole syllabus of fighting education).

 

[Chris Parker]

The short answer, according to my first Sensai (Shihan Richard Brown 8th Dan, Karate) that I learned sometime back in the late 80s, was "take apart" or "disassembled", and the extracted technique or the oyoh is the breakdown or application of a technique within the kata, these are found through analysis.

Cool.

The reason I ask is that I find that the exact meaning is one of the most misunderstood concepts in martial arts. It's commonly thought of as a specific interpretation, or set of interpretations, for kata (meaning the solo sequences as found in karate here), although that's not quite correct… Bunkai isn't anything specific… it's a process. In particular, it's a process of examination. In other words, there is no set bunkai for a particular kata… bunkai is what you apply to the kata yourself. The kanji for bunkai are 分解… the first character ("bun" - 分) means to divide, or take apart, with the second ("kai" - 解) meaning to disassemble, with an additional concept of to clarify. So bunkai is a process of taking apart to examine and clarify. That cannot be done if you are simply given the "answers"… it's a process where you find your own ones. Ideally, you should be guided to some more basic (kihon) understanding of what the actions can be interpreted as… and, from there, it's up to the practitioner to find (discover) their own understanding of the movements. This, among other reasons, is why you can get senior karateka with differing performances of the same kata, of course.

But here's the thing… bunkai is not, by definition, application. It's not even combatively useful. It can be, certainly… and many have that as a kind of "litmus test" to whether or not it's "real" bunkai (kinda missing the point… provided the kata is taken apart and analysed, it's "real" bunkai). Other versions of bunkai can take on a more "spiritual" identity (philosophical expressions in physical form)… or be used to emphasise other lessons. Actual applications (combative) of the movements are referred to as oyo (応用 - pretty literally "to act in response").

There are some lists of "rules" for bunkai… guidelines for how to best explore and examine the lessons of the kata… such as the Kaisai no Genri. But these are best understood as ideas, concepts to be applied… not the actual process of bunkai in and of itself.

He called the terms toridai and himitsu as the general names for techniques not easily obsreved to the viewer and these are hidden techniques within a given form.

Yeah, those are common enough terms… himitsu basically means "hidden from sight"…

He taught several styles of art forms (different days of the week), two of which I studied Shotokon Ryu, and Tang Soo Do. However, My TSD gained at his Dojo was only the first 2 geups.

Okay… no such thing as "Shotokan Ryu", for the record… but cool.

Best not to worry about so-called 'authentic' teachings in my opinion, unless you're interested in studying a koryu art that is designed for historical preservation.

Kinda off topic, but… no. That's not what Koryu are designed for…

 

[TSDTexan]

The odds of me finding some one who teaches Fujian White Crane in my town would be miraculous in magnatude.

Why do I'm mention this CMA? Because Karate is and always been a traditional MMA. To blast modern MMA starting with Bruce Lee's art, and everything after is in hypocrisy.

The Okinawan Masters would send their top students to China after about six years of training in the Okinawan system 手 (Te), after about 5-6 studying the CMAs 唐, the new master of the two systems Okiwan Te & CMA would spend the remaining part of his life creating a harmony within the two. 唐手

While passing on the living art to new students in Okinawa.

Gitchen Funakoshi changed the name Tang Soo, or China Hand to Empty Hand, in order to bypass the anti china sentiments of the mainland Japanese people.

Giving us the Kanji or Hanji 空手

In Japan the "Te" -> Tang = new "Te" development cycle froze, and after the Sho Dynasty ended in Okinawa they also froze the Te-Tang development cycle.

At this point, innovation only happened by discovery, or blending Japanese various breeds of jutsu into Karate-Do, by a master who was usually dual systemed.

 

[TSDTexan]

You said:

Okay… no such thing as "Shotokan Ryu", for the record… but cool.

The Shotokon was a typo, as was stated later in the thread, unless you are asserting that there is no SHOTOKAN ryu (correct spelling) if the second is the case I will refer you to the following:

Shihankai ISKS home page

The Kokusai Shotokan-ryu Karate-do Shihankai (ISKS) was inaugurated in June 2004.

But you might say, yes, but this name is antecedent to the 1980s when you studied Shotokan Karate. My answer, 2004 was when the organization formally inaugurated.

The following notion may be disturbing to some people... The can be both a Formal Ryu or an informal Ryu.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah… don't know what they're on about… Shotokan isn't a ryu-ha… and there's no "ryu" in the kanji on the Japanese form of the name on that page, for the record…

When it comes down to it, Funakoshi didn't even intend what he taught to be a particular, distinct style… he just called it "karate". It was his students who (lovingly) gave a sign saying "Shotokan" (Shoto's Hall/Club) to the dojo. Shotokan is, when all's said and done, an organisation… which is very different to a ryu-ha.

Hmm… you added a bit after I posted… let's see.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if they decided to name their organisation "Shotokan Ryu" in 2004… it still doesn't make Shotokan a ryu… I also don't know what you mean by people being disturbed, or by "formal and informal ryu"…

 

[TSDTexan]

Well if it helps, the breed of Japanese Karate that I studied for that year, is commonly called Shotokan Karate. Whatever it means, or can't mean. Perhaps I should say Karate by the lineage and teaching of G. Funakoshi, through his students-do.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, yeah, I got that… it was a minor point, really. The more important part of my post was the longer bit earlier…

 

[hoshin1600]

Honestly, it doesn't matter if they decided to name their organisation "Shotokan Ryu" in 2004… it still doesn't make Shotokan a ryu… I also don't know what you mean by people being disturbed, or by "formal and informal ryu"…

Usually Chris your spot on but you missed on this one. while yeah i get what your saying in general terms but ALL Okinawan systems and styles are called ryu. whether or not it is technically correct would be another topic but at some point the Okinawan styles have taken on the ryu designation. Uechi-ryu, Goju -ryu, Shito-ryu, Kobo-ryu, shorin-ryu, Matubayashi-ryu......yeah shotokan ryu sounds a little weird and i have never heard it used before myself but i dont see why you would use it for every other karate style and not shotokan.

Gitchen Funakoshi changed the name Tang Soo, or China Hand to Empty Hand, in order to bypass the anti china sentiments of the mainland Japanese people.

to be accurate it wasnt Funakoshi that changed the name. It was a meeting in Okinawa in 1936 with a few top karate-ka (Funakoshi was not there, he was in Japan) that decided to formally name what they do "empty handed self defense" thus kara-te. it would seem that yes the anti- Chinese movement could have been the deciding factor to re- identify the arts. there was a lot going on at that time and would make sense to choose a name that was neutral to both the Chinese and the Japanese. The Chinese were in a Civil battle between the Communist party and the Nationalist party. Okinawans would also be weary of getting into that scuffle as well. the term "Tang-hand" To-Te which was the common term might have brought implications from the Chinese as well.

The Okinawan Masters would send their top students to China after about six years of training in the Okinawan system 手 (Te), after about 5-6 studying the CMAs 唐, the new master of the two systems Okiwan Te & CMA would spend the remaining part of his life creating a harmony within the two. 唐手

While passing on the living art to new students in Okinawa.

Nice thought but ...no

In Japan the "Te" -> Tang = new "Te" development cycle froze, and after the Sho Dynasty ended in Okinawa they also froze the Te-Tang development cycle.

not sure what your trying to say here.

At this point, innovation only happened by discovery, or blending Japanese various breeds of jutsu into Karate-Do, by a master who was usually dual systemed.

i dont think i agree with this statement but i would need more of an explanation for what you are trying to say.

 

[TSDTexan]

Sakukawa Kanga (1733 - 1815) was a student of one of the great worriors of Okinawa then, the monk Takahara Pēchin (高原 親雲上?).

After 6 years of study, Takahara suggested hisstudent to go to China and study there under the guidance of the great master Kosokun, (originator of kusanku kata), after 6 years of study in China Sakukawa returned to Okinawa and started teaching in the city of Shuri, a fighting art that he called "Tudi Sakukawa," which meant "Sakukawa of China Hand."

This was the first known recorded reference to the art of "Tudi," written as 唐手.

Sakukawa's most significant student Matsumura Sōkon (1809–1899) went on to develop his master’s style which was a synthesis of te (Shuri-te and Tomari-te) and Shaolin (Chinese 少林) styles.

Matsumura's style would later become the Shōrin-ryū style.

Matsumura Sōkon Sensei


Matsumura taught his art to Itosu Ankō (1831–1915) among others.

Itosu adapted two forms he had learned from Matsumara: kusanku and chiang nan from which he created the ping'an forms ("heian" or "pinan" in Japanese) which are simplified kata for beginning students.

In 1901 these forms were introduced into Okinawa's elementary public schools as part of their physical training program.

Itosu's influence in karate is broad. The forms he created are common across nearly all styles of karate.

Among his students are some of the most well-known karate masters, including Gichin Funakoshi, Kenwa Mabuni, and Motobu Chōki.

Itosu is sometimes referred to as "the Grandfather of Modern Karate."

In 1881 Higaonna Kanryō from the city Naha returned from China after years of Kung Fu Instructions with master Ryu Ryu Ko and founded what would




Chōjun Miyagi Sensei Teaching.


become Naha-te.

One of his students, Chōjun Miyagi, was the founder of Gojū-ryū (剛柔流?), ("hard-soft style").

Chōjun Miyagi taught well-known karateka such as Seko Higa, Meitoku Yagi, Miyazato Ei'ichi, and Seikichi Toguchi.

In addition to the three early te styles of karate a fourth Okinawan influence is that of Kanbun Uechi (1877–1948), who at the age of 20 went to Fuzhou in Fujian Province, China, to escape Japanese military conscription.

While there he studied under Shushiwa. He was a leading figure of Chinese Nanpa Shorin-ken style at that time.

He later developed his own style of Uechi-ryū karate based on the Sanchin, Seisan, and Sanseiryu kata that he had studied in China.


Hoshin1600, I now ask you a question.
Is any of this history in error?

This is the historical context of my statement "Te" -> Tang development cycle.

Takahara Pēchin taught "Te" to Sakukawa Kanga and then
Kosokun taught "Tang" (China Hand) to Sakukawa Kanga.

This would develop into the formal art/school/tradition of Shōrin-ryū.

The art of Naha-te is another "Te" -> "Tong" development or hybrid.

As was, what we call the art taught under the name Uechi-ryū

These are pretty much the same as when they were founded right?