Bunkai genuine?

[TSDTexan]

Given Korean Tang Soo Do is partly derived from Okinawan Karate... And that bunkai for the Katas are relatively recently released to the rest of the world...

How do I ask this question without offending anyone?

OK. With greatest respect, how can we ascertain authenticity to the bunkai for the Okinawan Kata's of GM Itosu and others?

Given the amount of counterfeiting that goes on, (I know there are sacred cows here, and I am treading as lightly as I know how)... My skeptical side wants to "trust with/and verify", but how do we know for sure that the bunkai is the real McCoy and not spinning of silkworms?

Its is true because "master told me so", is a logical fallacy called appeal to authority, (this of course doesn't really apply to first hand written testimony of the Kata's author, or testability of assertions made)

I am wanting real answers, because I am considering dropping old katas from my class curriculum, and phasing in new Katas/Hyungs, from the last 80 years to present.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The way many of us see it is that there is no one answer to the question of bunkai. Forms are a series of movements, most (if not all) of which can be used in multiple ways. A single movement, like the middle knifehand, can be a block, a strike, a release, etc.
Personally, if someone tried to tell me that what they're teaching is THE bunkai, I'd walk the other way.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

 

[TSDTexan]

The way many of us see it is that there is no one answer to the question of bunkai. Forms are a series of movements, most (if not all) of which can be used in multiple ways. A single movement, like the middle knifehand, can be a block, a strike, a release, etc.
Personally, if someone tried to tell me that what they're teaching is THE bunkai, I'd walk the other way.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.

That's exactly my read.

My first answer to white belts who ask about forms is its a library, that etches your techniques into muscle memory, so you can chain together and recall your "how to" when you start having senior moments. The beauty of it is when it transcends muscle memory and becomes a real mental library. You "see" without seeing the whole form.

May I ask you if you have heard anything about Tactical or Combat Hapkido Alliance?

I am looking to gain a Dan belt in Hopkido, and seeing as there are no Dans or Masters in my neck of the woods, I am seriously considering Hopkido-Online and taking a few of my senior students through it as a group.

 

[Tez3]

Given Korean Tang Soo Do is partly derived from Okinawan Karate... And that bunkai for the Katas are relatively recently released to the rest of the world...

How do I ask this question without offending anyone?

OK. With greatest respect, how can we ascertain authenticity to the bunkai for the Okinawan Kata's of GM Itosu and others?

Given the amount of counterfeiting that goes on, (I know there are sacred cows here, and I am treading as lightly as I know how)... My skeptical side wants to "trust with/and verify", but how do we know for sure that the bunkai is the real McCoy and not spinning of silkworms?

Its is true because "master told me so", is a logical fallacy called appeal to authority, (this of course doesn't really apply to first hand written testimony of the Kata's author, or testability of assertions made)

I am wanting real answers, because I am considering dropping old katas from my class curriculum, and phasing in new Katas/Hyungs, from the last 80 years to present.

If you work through Bunkai, discovering for yourself what's there they won't be counterfeit. If you use the work of reputable karateka to help you do this you will know whether the Bunkai work, you don't just 'learn' Bunkai, you have to make it work for you. Explore it, use it, practice it then it becomes something workable and useful.
I don't understand what you mean though wen you say that the Bunkai were 'relatively released to the rest of the world', a lot of people have worked and are still working through kata to find useable and workable Bunkai, nobody has released that knowledge, many people study Bunkai.
As DD said there is no one right way of Bunkai and anyone saying there is very misguided to say the least.

 

[Jacky Zuki]

There are levels of bunkai. The superficial level is the obvious one, a strike is a strike, a block is a block etc. Anything deeper than that gets personal; blocks and strikes can be seen as locks and throws of increasing technical difficulty depending on the knowledge and needs of the person seeking to unlock the moves.The superficial level is exactly what it looks like, the deeper levels depend on so many variables and personal preferences that what works for one person may seem contrived and ungainly to another. Don't think of bunkai as something to be kept pure and passed down in entirety, think of it as something everyone needs to reinvent in part for themselves.

 

[TSDTexan]

There are levels of bunkai. The superficial level is the obvious one, a strike is a strike, a block is a block etc. Anything deeper than that gets personal; blocks and strikes can be seen as locks and throws of increasing technical difficulty depending on the knowledge and needs of the person seeking to unlock the moves.The superficial level is exactly what it looks like, the deeper levels depend on so many variables and personal preferences that what works for one person may seem contrived and ungainly to another. Don't think of bunkai as something to be kept pure and passed down in entirety, think of it as something everyone needs to reinvent in part for themselves.

OK, so Hwang Kee, and Gitchen Funakoshi have enumerated different applications for each of the different punch/block/kicks. But neither are "Orthodox" according to some who say they were never taught "the" founder's Original Secret Recipe Bunkai.

In other words, bunkai was never intended to be an exercise of subjective interpretation, but a handing down of a concealed tradition.

If you read enough comments TSD or TKD or striking KMAs that have Okinawan Kata/Hyungs, you will eventually hear/read Japanese or Okinawan practioners spount "secret sauce you don't know" therefore your art is weaker, fake, flawed, or any other pejorative.

 

[Chris Parker]

What is your understanding of what bunkai is?

 

[TSDTexan]

What is your understanding of what bunkai is?

The short answer, according to my first Sensai (Shihan Richard Brown 8th Dan, Karate) that I learned sometime back in the late 80s, was "take apart" or "disassembled", and the extracted technique or the oyoh is the breakdown or application of a technique within the kata, these are found through analysis.

He called the terms toridai and himitsu as the general names for techniques not easily obsreved to the viewer and these are hidden techniques within a given form.

He taught several styles of art forms (different days of the week), two of which I studied Shotokon Ryu, and Tang Soo Do. However, My TSD gained at his Dojo was only the first 2 geups.

 

[Tez3]

If you read enough comments TSD or TKD or striking KMAs that have Okinawan Kata/Hyungs, you will eventually hear/read Japanese or Okinawan practioners spount "secret sauce you don't know" therefore your art is weaker, fake, flawed, or any other pejorative.

Well you aren't hearing it from me ,no one I know 'spouts' such stuff. And as trashing other styles is strictly discouraged here ie against the rules you won't hear it from anyone. I don't know anyone who thinks Bunkai is a secret. I know people who don't do it or think it's not worth doing but even they don't think it's some sort of secret.

What is 'Shotokon Ryu'?

 

[DaveB]

There are a couple of inaccuracies in your question and I think clearing them up will help you with the answer to your question.

Given Korean Tang Soo Do is partly derived from Okinawan Karate... And that bunkai for the Katas are relatively recently released to the rest of the world...

From what I understand all Taekwondo is modified Shotokan and Tang Soo Do is the closest to the Shotokan root. This is good because Shotokan has a lot of research material publicly available and Tang Soo Do forms don't need a lot of modification to get back to the originals. Which makes TSD the only TKD branch with real kata application potential IMO. (It's not a dig, I love TKD, but their poomsae are muddled up kata, created to be different to kata for nationalistic reasons, not for holding a fighting art).

Bunkai were not released to the world. The world re-invented it to fill in the obvious gaps like dealing with grasping attacks and close fighting.

There are a small number of Shorin ryu schools and the like who claim to teach karate with full applications as they were handed down, but as of yet I have not encountered anyone making these publicly available. I've personally encountered one such group and their methods are fascinatingly distinct. So much so that I think they are genuine, but of limited relevance to other schools.

Pretty much everyone else has reverse engineered applications or learned from someone else who reverse engineered applications.

Though the concept has always been present, the Karate of Itosu and his peers was not routinely transmitted with a complete set of applications for the kata.

One of the most telling pieces of evidence towards this is the Naihanchi (Tekki) applications of Choki Motobu. They were his own. An article about him told how he enjoyed discussing possible applications for kata. But he was a master of the generation who should have known difinitively, with no need for further exploration.

I believe the truth is that each master taught a few applications in order to drill the skills of fighting, but that after that the kata served as a creative tool for further developing the potential of movement. After all, what more efficient way to train can there be, than drilling one small group of movements (i.e. kata) but being able to use that small set for a vast variety of fighting techniques and tactics.

How do I ask this question without offending anyone?

OK. With greatest respect, how can we ascertain authenticity to the bunkai for the Okinawan Kata's of GM Itosu and others?

Given the amount of counterfeiting that goes on, (I know there are sacred cows here, and I am treading as lightly as I know how)... My skeptical side wants to "trust with/and verify", but how do we know for sure that the bunkai is the real McCoy and not spinning of silkworms?

Its is true because "master told me so", is a logical fallacy called appeal to authority, (this of course doesn't really apply to first hand written testimony of the Kata's author, or testability of assertions made)

I am wanting real answers, because I am considering dropping old katas from my class curriculum, and phasing in new Katas/Hyungs, from the last 80 years to present.

Noboody knows who created most of the kata we have so there is no hope of finding the original applications. Taking into account what I wrote above, for the vast majority of us there is no "Authentic Bunkai". Never was, never will be. The only test is does it work?
That means checking the principles of the technique against the pressures of the real world and it's functionality against a resisting opposition.

But this is not just a point about how knowledge has been forgotten, it is about the fact that the question is wrong.

Bunkai at it's most fundamental is about finding combinations of kihon (basic/fundamental) techniques. Karateka had a hard time understanding kata because we fixed movements with names that limited their potential, and more damagingly our kihon had become limited to block, punch and kick. If your kihon includes these but also has wrist lock, shoulder lock, trap, pull, hip throw, reap etc, kata applications are not that mysterious. You may not spot everything straight away, but you will start to get what is going on more easily.

But this begs the question, if we need to know techniques to find the applications, what do we need the kata for?

The answer has to be that the techniques are not the important part, the sequences of techniques are why we have kata. How and why we should put the techniques together.

Can we apply every sequence in kata as it occurs in the kata and will these cover every combative situation I might encounter?

No we can't and no they won't.

From sequences we get tactics and strategies. These are embodied within a sequence, but transcend the specific techniques.
By having a set of rules (tactics and strategies) that guide us in which techniques to use and when to use them, we can avoid having to train for everything scenario and avoid learning hundreds of set piece drills that we won't be able to get off against an opponent who's not scripted.

So when you consider changing your kata I would suggest you consider whether or not the sequences impart underlying lessons of real value.
That being said I have always felt that TKD should do away with their patterns and create some new ones based on the modern fighting art that they have evolved through both sport and military channels. I think the result would look something like a cross between Ashihara Karate kata and Krav Maga.

 

[TSDTexan]

There are a couple of inaccuracies in your question and I think clearing them up will help you with the answer to your question.



From what I understand all Taekwondo is modified Shotokan and Tang Soo Do is the closest to the Shotokan root. This is good because Shotokan has a lot of research material publicly available and Tang Soo Do forms don't need a lot of modification to get back to the originals. Which makes TSD the only TKD branch with real kata application potential IMO. (It's not a dig, I love TKD, but their poomsae are muddled up kata, created to be different to kata for nationalistic reasons, not for holding a fighting art).

Bunkai were not released to the world. The world re-invented it to fill in the obvious gaps like dealing with grasping attacks and close fighting.

There are a small number of Shorin ryu schools and the like who claim to teach karate with full applications as they were handed down, but as of yet I have not encountered anyone making these publicly available. I've personally encountered one such group and their methods are fascinatingly distinct. So much so that I think they are genuine, but of limited relevance to other schools.

Pretty much everyone else has reverse engineered applications or learned from someone else who reverse engineered applications.

Though the concept has always been present, the Karate of Itosu and his peers was not routinely transmitted with a complete set of applications for the kata.

One of the most telling pieces of evidence towards this is the Naihanchi (Tekki) applications of Choki Motobu. They were his own. An article about him told how he enjoyed discussing possible applications for kata. But he was a master of the generation who should have known difinitively, with no need for further exploration.

I believe the truth is that each master taught a few applications in order to drill the skills of fighting, but that after that the kata served as a creative tool for further developing the potential of movement. After all, what more efficient way to train can there be, than drilling one small group of movements (i.e. kata) but being able to use that small set for a vast variety of fighting techniques and tactics.



Noboody knows who created most of the kata we have so there is no hope of finding the original applications. Taking into account what I wrote above, for the vast majority of us there is no "Authentic Bunkai". Never was, never will be. The only test is does it work?
That means checking the principles of the technique against the pressures of the real world and it's functionality against a resisting opposition.

But this is not just a point about how knowledge has been forgotten, it is about the fact that the question is wrong.

Bunkai at it's most fundamental is about finding combinations of kihon (basic/fundamental) techniques. Karateka had a hard time understanding kata because we fixed movements with names that limited their potential, and more damagingly our kihon had become limited to block, punch and kick. If your kihon includes these but also has wrist lock, shoulder lock, trap, pull, hip throw, reap etc, kata applications are not that mysterious. You may not spot everything straight away, but you will start to get what is going on more easily.

But this begs the question, if we need to know techniques to find the applications, what do we need the kata for?

The answer has to be that the techniques are not the important part, the sequences of techniques are why we have kata. How and why we should put the techniques together.

Can we apply every sequence in kata as it occurs in the kata and will these cover every combative situation I might encounter?

No we can't and no they won't.

From sequences we get tactics and strategies. These are embodied within a sequence, but transcend the specific techniques.
By having a set of rules (tactics and strategies) that guide us in which techniques to use and when to use them, we can avoid having to train for everything scenario and avoid learning hundreds of set piece drills that we won't be able to get off against an opponent who's not scripted.

So when you consider changing your kata I would suggest you consider whether or not the sequences impart underlying lessons of real value.
That being said I have always felt that TKD should do away with their patterns and create some new ones based on the modern fighting art that they have evolved through both sport and military channels. I think the result would look something like a cross between Ashihara Karate kata and Krav Maga.

DaveB thank you. You understood what I was getting at. That answers it.

 

[TSDTexan]

Well you aren't hearing it from me ,no one I know 'spouts' such stuff. And as trashing other styles is strictly discouraged here ie against the rules you won't hear it from anyone. I don't know anyone who thinks Bunkai is a secret. I know people who don't do it or think it's not worth doing but even they don't think it's some sort of secret.

What is 'Shotokon Ryu'?

Typo Shotokon was supposed to be Shotokan

 

[Tez3]

Typo Shotokon was supposed to be Shotokan

Ah, thought I'd ask because you never know,

 

[TSDTexan]

You stated:

Bunkai at it's most fundamental is about finding combinations of kihon (basic/fundamental) techniques.

My comment: well put. When my students ask me the why do we do this form?... I feel like Teyve in fiddler on the roof. And I tell em, "This here is what I was taught, what my master was taught, and his was taught by Hwang Kee." Then I point at the little bookshelf, and say "go ask him, take notes and prepare a presentation of your findings, this is your introduction into Bun Hae."

You also said:
what do we need the kata for?

The answer has to be that the techniques are not the important part, the sequences of techniques are why we have kata. How and why we should put the techniques together.

Can we apply every sequence in kata as it occurs in the kata and will these cover every combative situation I might encounter?

No we can't and no they won't.

From sequences we get tactics and strategies. These are embodied within a sequence, but transcend the specific techniques.
By having a set of rules (tactics and strategies) that guide us in which techniques to use and when to use them, we can avoid having to train for everything scenario and avoid learning hundreds of set piece drills that we won't be able to get off against an opponent who's not scripted.

So when you consider changing your kata I would suggest you consider whether or not the sequences impart underlying lessons of real value.

My response: this is something I need to meditate upon. If I alter the curriculum, I will be departing from The Tradition and becoming a non traditional art, unless I want to approve the Seven Stars and related Soo Bahk Do forms... At which point, I am headed towards re-unification with the MDK, and ending TSD classes altogether. I am not certain I desire to do that.

 

[Tez3]

Who is the 'you' in your post please? It's hard to follow because it looks like a conversation you are having with yourself?

 

[TSDTexan]

Who is the 'you' in your post please? It's hard to follow because it looks like a conversation you are having with yourself?

My phone goofed up, while was trying to respond to DaveB

 

[Tez3]

My phone goofed up, while was trying to respond to DaveB

I try never to use my phone for things, I can't decide whether it's me or the phone.

 

[dancingalone]

My response: this is something I need to meditate upon. If I alter the curriculum, I will be departing from The Tradition and becoming a non traditional art, unless I want to approve the Seven Stars and related Soo Bahk Do forms... At which point, I am headed towards re-unification with the MDK, and ending TSD classes altogether. I am not certain I desire to do that.

Do you mean reconnecting with HC Hwang and the Soo Bahk Do group? If so, as I understand it, Hwang Kee really didn't pass along a systematic way of studying the Chil Sung forms either, at least in the sense that bunkai sets are used in some Okinawan ryu-ha.

Korean styles in general aren't the way to go if you want to study form applications in a cohesive fashion, but you know that already. Frankly, there's more talk about it on the web than it actually exists (in my personal experience). Yeah, the Okinawan styles are more likely to do it. You'll still have to find the right teacher and the right situation as many nominally Okinawan karate schools in the west don't have the goods either.

 

[Tez3]

You'll still have to find the right teacher and the right situation as many nominally Okinawan karate schools in the west don't have the goods either.

You'll find a growing number of karateka in the UK who are using and investigating Bunkai. Iain Abernethy's seminar's, book and videos are tremendously popular. There's a number of instructors now who also take seminars on Bunkai.

 

[Tez3]

This came in the newsletter from Iain Abernethy today. Pinan Heian Yodan Pyung Ahn Sa Dan Flow Drill Iain Abernethy