I can only speak for myself when I say... My training is far more valuable than the money I spend. The money is just a token. Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about what I make. Simply, I believe my training has a value far more than money.
Bummed and confused
- Thread starter Primal Kuen
- Start date
I can only speak for myself when I say... My training is far more valuable than the money I spend. The money is just a token. Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about what I make. Simply, I believe my training has a value far more than money.
newGuy12
Master of Arts
Well, I can totally understand the confusion that Primal Kuen mentions. I myself am totally new at my school. I like my school a lot. It has:
1) A Good Teacher
2) Nice, friendly people
3) We learn fantastic motions.
4) I get good exercise
5) It is not expensive,
6) It is conveniently located.
7) The class times are very convenient.
Now, there is one thing which gives me pause. We do not spar. Now, that is not a "deal killer" to me. I can give that up. I may even join another club (which is also conveniently located) in order to augment my training with sparring (we only meet twice a week at my school).
Its interesting to me... there are two well known Wing-Chun Teachers in my city. One is known for very combative classes. You will most likely get a black eye if you go there. Its to be expected, or you should not be surprised. Why? Because of the nature of the classes there.
The other Teacher's class is not that way at all, it is taught in a different way.
Which one is better? It depends on which students that you talk to. Because I have spoke with students of both Teachers. I have spoken with a student that first went to one Teacher and then to another, because he got black eyes -- one for Christmas and one for New Year! hahahahahahaha!!!!
Now, both sets of students love their Teachers (its a small pond around here, everyone knows everyone else pretty much). They just go to whichever school that they prefer.
Its interesting to me, that's all.
Good luck getting to the bottom of this, Primal Kuen.
Robert Witten
1) A Good Teacher
2) Nice, friendly people
3) We learn fantastic motions.
4) I get good exercise
5) It is not expensive,
6) It is conveniently located.
7) The class times are very convenient.
Now, there is one thing which gives me pause. We do not spar. Now, that is not a "deal killer" to me. I can give that up. I may even join another club (which is also conveniently located) in order to augment my training with sparring (we only meet twice a week at my school).
Its interesting to me... there are two well known Wing-Chun Teachers in my city. One is known for very combative classes. You will most likely get a black eye if you go there. Its to be expected, or you should not be surprised. Why? Because of the nature of the classes there.
The other Teacher's class is not that way at all, it is taught in a different way.
Which one is better? It depends on which students that you talk to. Because I have spoke with students of both Teachers. I have spoken with a student that first went to one Teacher and then to another, because he got black eyes -- one for Christmas and one for New Year! hahahahahahaha!!!!
Now, both sets of students love their Teachers (its a small pond around here, everyone knows everyone else pretty much). They just go to whichever school that they prefer.
Its interesting to me, that's all.
Good luck getting to the bottom of this, Primal Kuen.
Robert Witten
JBrainard
Senior Master
Just a heads up: You're going to get that speach from many MMA teachers. I'm not going to get into why I disagree 'cuz I like to keep this forum friendly
Just do your homework, shop around, and find what art is best for you. As someone on this thread pointed out, you may have already found it and you just don't know it yet.
kalikg
Yellow Belt
Just from what I've read here (which isn't to be confused with knowing you) I would say that you aren't interested in traditional martial arts but are more interested in combatives (long term goals vs. short term returns). I'm not saying that in a negative way...just what I gather from the thread so far. My suggestion would be to try Krav Maga;a great all around self-defense system that is quick and easy to learn and is also quite a workout (not to mention effective). There are other combative systems out there; look around and see what you find.
Good Luck,
Peace be with you
Good Luck,
Peace be with you
Common sense says leave, but you may want to throw more salt in your faith's eyes. LOL Here is what my faith says... you will learn to fight, but the cage match gigs aren't going to be your thing. Look at it like this WC will allow you to handle a certain percentage of future confrontations. If you want that number to go higher you need to seek out a system you can better relate too and will be effective against people that might know something, and in this day and age, everybody that confronts you probably believes they will win; because, they know something about fighting.
Sean
Senjojutsu
Blue Belt
For me, this is the most problematic statement you have made.
Are you allowed to watch advanced classes/students without sparring?
Now I do not have a background in CMA traditions but in my three plus decades of wanderings I have seen such a consistent correlation between "secrecy" and fraudulent MA schools and cults.
This for clarification does not mean I am saying any off-the-street school newbie gets taught a style’s advanced teachings & concepts during their rookie year. It means if you are not allowed to observe through others (with their flaws) where you will be in two-three, five years I think it is a RED FLAG.
tellner
Senior Master
On the other hand, there's a very legitimate question here. It's fundamental and extremely reasonable. Is the $1000 dollars plus he's going to spend before he is even allowed to watch people making it work under pressure well spent, or is he getting ripped off? What he's getting is eighteen months of "Don't worry, it will be great once we let you have a taste." He'll either leave or he'll be so heavily invested that he'll believe anything and keep with it even if it turns out they're selling sizzle instead of sausage and he's been subjected to the old bait-and-switch.
You're right. "Traditional" martial artists won't like his attitude for a very specific definition of "traditional". And that is why the "traditional" martial arts are in steep decline. A few decades ago when they were the only game in town they could get away with promising "jam yesterday and jam tomorrow but never jam today". Scoop on a couple large dollops of Mystic Wisdom of the Exotic Orient(tm) and top with RESPECT and people would pretty much swallow anything. What many teachers were really selling was the ritual process, group identity, a personality cult, and ego buy-in on the part of the student.
Much as the "traditionalists" decry MMA and with all its limitations and imperfections it's served a useful purpose. It was willing to ask the question "Can you fight?" For the most part - and I'll be brutally honest - the answer was "No. We can't. But we have cool white pajamas and play some really cool status games with each other."
Now, I agree that a lot of places start unstructured sparring too early. A lot of young MMA hopefuls find that strength and speed only get you so far where "so" is "not very" against a good technical boxer or wrestler. But you can turn someone into a decent ring-ready Thai boxer in a year and a half. A dedicated kid can be a competent wrestler by then. The US Marine Corps can take someone with an IQ of 75 and turn him into a skilled professional soldier in about the same time. If that's the standard the "traditional martial artists" will need to be damned impressive down the line and provide something other than "It's the Art" or "It's not about nasty things like fighting" or "Tradition" or "Respect and humility" when someone comes to them and says "I want to be able to fight".
If someone wants to learn to fight or get good self defense skills and is up front about this he's not being disrespectful or any of those other hiss-words by saying so and expressing reservations when he isn't even allowed to see the evidence that he'll get what he's looking for. He just doesn't want to waste his time or money. That's perfectly legitimate. If the "traditionalist" can't give some sort of real honest assurance that that is the case or doesn't have the integrity to say "I can't do it. That's not what I'm here for" the student should fire the teacher without spending another moment there.
You see, the teacher does have something to prove. He needs to be able to show that he is what he says he is, not a fraud. That doesn't mean getting in lots of challenge matches every time a newbie walks through the door. It does mean having a mechanism for matching the student's expectations with the reality of what he's going to end up with.
Now let's talk about your second paragraph. We're all adults here, so I will assume that your ego is mature enough to handle a bit of simple honesty. You are showing a really egregious lack of respect for the original correspondent. He isn't talking about "donning gear" and "beating the crap" out of people. He's wondering if he's being scammed. And frankly, the indications are that he is.
There is a number of things that one doesn't show beginners. It's a lot easier to really mess someone up than it is to batter them into submission according to the rules of fair play. Breaking a neck or entering and gutting someone is very simple. And I wouldn't want to show it to someone whose character I wasn't sure about. But beyond that, the idea that a student has to be heavily personally invested and spend years before seeing how training plays out in application against a resisting opponent or even see how advanced students move with each other is ludicrous. There aren't any deathless arcane secrets there.
You expect him to continue wasting time and money without his very real doubts being addressed. So you distort what he says and turn it around in a very perjorative way. You insult someone who wants proof and denigrate anyone who is willing to offer him same. Is that the conduct one expects of an instructor, holder of the Mystic Black Belt? I think not.
You'd "show him the door without ceremony" because he wants to know what he's really getting into? Maybe the Korean martial arts are different than what I've been taught. Maybe it's just the particular instructors. But the traditions I come out of hold that the teacher is there for the student's benefit, not so much the other way around. An honest question deserves an honest answer. Respect has to go both ways. Before asking someone to trust you, give you money and spend his precious time doing what you say you are obligated to let him know what he's getting into and see how well it matches what he's looking for. And even if you're going to kill a man there's no reason not to be polite.
tellner
Senior Master
I think this needs to be added...
I put "traditional" in quotes because this attitude is way out of line with actual fighting traditions when you actually take a close look. The idea that fighters and warriors wouldn't or couldn't show that they had chops, especially when they were asking someone to pay them money for their skills, would have been ludicrous throughout pretty much all of human history. My teacher isn't just a "trad", he's a "famtrad" to borrow a term from the Wiccans. When he was looking for a new teacher his grandmother's only question was "Stevie, can he fight?" This from a traditional teacher whose ancestors had been in the game for many generations.
To her it was the most obvious question in the world. Why should her grandson waste his time on a teacher if he couldn't be assured he was getting the real deal?
Primal Kuen, you're not being unreasonable. There's nothing in Wing Chun which is so secret or awe-inspiring that you can't even seen two-year students and what sort of skills they are supposed to develop. There are good reasons not to spar too early, but your doubts are well-founded.
I put "traditional" in quotes because this attitude is way out of line with actual fighting traditions when you actually take a close look. The idea that fighters and warriors wouldn't or couldn't show that they had chops, especially when they were asking someone to pay them money for their skills, would have been ludicrous throughout pretty much all of human history. My teacher isn't just a "trad", he's a "famtrad" to borrow a term from the Wiccans. When he was looking for a new teacher his grandmother's only question was "Stevie, can he fight?" This from a traditional teacher whose ancestors had been in the game for many generations.
To her it was the most obvious question in the world. Why should her grandson waste his time on a teacher if he couldn't be assured he was getting the real deal?
Primal Kuen, you're not being unreasonable. There's nothing in Wing Chun which is so secret or awe-inspiring that you can't even seen two-year students and what sort of skills they are supposed to develop. There are good reasons not to spar too early, but your doubts are well-founded.
If anyone joins any club without investigating whether or not it's for them, then it's up to that person to make their own subsequent decisions. If this guy purchased lessons not seeing what these guys can really do, then it's his error.
Since you said he said nothing about donning gear and getting the crap beat out of him, I'll point you to this post by him, fourth para. And yes, I would turn him out if he showed repeated and continued impatience at his level of training with an eagerness to learn advanced skills without completing basic and intermediate studies - that's just me.
But does he know what effective WC looks like? He knows that some MMAers kicked his butt - good for him. Does that make what he's doing ineffective? Some seem to think that the willingness to show anything to anybody indicates quality and effectiveness - it doesn't necessarily mean this. So ... who's really running the scam here?
I've seen people chomping at the bit to see that they're paying for effective study have a taste and then become so bored with their level of training they can't think about anything else but three or four levels ahead. So why set him up for failure in this case?
Of course he has a right to know what he's buying - perhaps a discussion of his goals with the instructor and asking, respectfully, about the secrecy of advanced classes would be in order?
I will not engage with you in the MMA vs. TMA argument - it's not even a dead horse anymore, it's an unrecognizable mass of goo.
What I will say, without ego and with honesty, is that I see a lot of people these days who feel that their dollar entitles them to certain knowledge at a certain level when they want it, how they want it. And do you want to know what I think about that? It's bull ****. I'm not required to show ANYbody ANYthing just because they have the money. If I think they demonstrate to me good character, trustworthiness, many of the tenets that I think are important consistently over a fair amount of time such that they may learn deadly techniques, then I'll proceed as I think best. To show anyone with a buck and the willingness to learn how to fight, maim and kill is flat out irresponsible in my opinion. And to me, that's what traditional martial arts are all about.
:asian:
Since you said he said nothing about donning gear and getting the crap beat out of him, I'll point you to this post by him, fourth para. And yes, I would turn him out if he showed repeated and continued impatience at his level of training with an eagerness to learn advanced skills without completing basic and intermediate studies - that's just me.
But does he know what effective WC looks like? He knows that some MMAers kicked his butt - good for him. Does that make what he's doing ineffective? Some seem to think that the willingness to show anything to anybody indicates quality and effectiveness - it doesn't necessarily mean this. So ... who's really running the scam here?
I've seen people chomping at the bit to see that they're paying for effective study have a taste and then become so bored with their level of training they can't think about anything else but three or four levels ahead. So why set him up for failure in this case?
Of course he has a right to know what he's buying - perhaps a discussion of his goals with the instructor and asking, respectfully, about the secrecy of advanced classes would be in order?
I will not engage with you in the MMA vs. TMA argument - it's not even a dead horse anymore, it's an unrecognizable mass of goo.
What I will say, without ego and with honesty, is that I see a lot of people these days who feel that their dollar entitles them to certain knowledge at a certain level when they want it, how they want it. And do you want to know what I think about that? It's bull ****. I'm not required to show ANYbody ANYthing just because they have the money. If I think they demonstrate to me good character, trustworthiness, many of the tenets that I think are important consistently over a fair amount of time such that they may learn deadly techniques, then I'll proceed as I think best. To show anyone with a buck and the willingness to learn how to fight, maim and kill is flat out irresponsible in my opinion. And to me, that's what traditional martial arts are all about.
:asian:
tellner
Senior Master
To the Anonymous Coward: If you have to hide and can't even sign your own name you really need to develop just a touch of moral courage. You know who you are. You know what you are. Disagreement is great. Cowardice is despicable. It really is as simple as that.
Shesulsa, you're distorting what he said just a tad and ignoring the meat of the issue for reasons which I plain don't understand.
How do you "check it out" if you aren't allowed to look? He's not allowed to even see what the training is leading to until he's spent several years and hundreds of dollars. If you can't feel and you can't see how can you make an informed decision? To throw it back at the student and say "I'd show him the door" for daring to ask for that proof isn't even close to logical let alone fair. How can he tell if he isn't allowed to gather any sort of evidence?
This isn't "tradition". The real old martial tradition is that you have to be able to defend your reputation one way or another. Back in the bad old days a newcomer could demand to "run the boards" and fight everyone in the school in order of seniority. Fortunately we don't do that any more. The point remains, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. The claim is "I've got chops. I can teach you to jam." To say that you'll have to wait for years for a chance to even watch people show their skills let alone feel them ridiculous.
When you say "the traditionalists have nothing to prove" you're absolutely, 100% ipso facto wrong. If they're taking your money they're selling you something. If they're selling something there needs to be a way the customer can see if it's real or fantasy. If you want to get less ploddingly literal and go with the honor and traditions of the martial arts it's even worse. The teacher is asking you to stake your life on the unproven thesis that he can fight and teach you to fight. He's asking for the "traditional" (it depends on which tradition) of a student's loyalty which used to be worth something. Once again (and again and again since it bears repeating) the burden is on him, not the student, to provide some sort of bona fides. If he doesn't provide a means of checking it out he's showing total unforgivable disrespect for someone from whom he is demanding trust and loyalty.
Yes, the MMA people have their problems. Sparring too early can lead to problems. But at least the MMA people will say "OK, let's roll. If I can submit you I can submit you. If you can submit me then you can submit me." That's a degree of honesty that a person can appreciate. You know where you stand. You can see and feel. There are results which are objectively and independently verifiable. You can check and see how the coach's stable does in competition. Yes, yes, all the usual caveats and warnings. But it's something anyone can look at as real evidence.
I'm thinking of the very traditional teachers I've studied under.
The wonderful people whom I learned Judo from thirty some years ago had beginners doing randori fairly early on. And everyone trained in the same class.
The Okinawa Te (master teaching certificates direct from Okinawa) guys were always up for sparring. And beginners were encouraged to watch the Black Belts because they would see good form even if they couldn't quite appreciate what was going on.
Sifu Al Dacascos had a couple banners in his back room. They were from very old-style Chinese martial arts schools. In his younger dumber days he'd gone in, made the correct polite challenge, beat everyone from the beginners to the chief instructor and walked out with the school flag. That's how they did it. And that's what a half-breed Chinese-Filipino had to do to get taken seriously.
The Eskrimadors? Oh man! They wouldn't make challenges. That would have been immoral. But they'd have beaten me with sticks if I backed down from one. And they were eager to cross sticks with people in a friendly way so that you could see the quality.
Kendo? Yup. You don't put on armor for a while, but you get to see more advanced students sparring all the time. Same theory as the Okinawans.
My Silat teachers have always been happy to show or let you feel. Remember what I said about Guru Plinck's little old Indonesian grandmother? "But Stevie, can he fight?" My first Silat teacher said from the first day I trained with him "You're welcome to try me any time. But if you try to hurt me I'll hurt you." Let's just say that Brandt is a unique individual and leave it at that With Guru Plinck it isn't like that. But if you want a demonstration he'll arrange one so that you know what you're getting into, how it works and whether it works. Once he let a guy spar anyone in the class. He could do whatever. All we could do was enter, set and trip. First person on the ground for whatever reason lost. The guy went away a believer. Nobody got hurt.
Do you see what I'm getting at? All of these traditions include ways for the student to make an informed decision. Primal Kuen was never offered anything of the sort, just the usual cult of personality, shut up roundeye BS. Maybe the school is fantastic. But the warning signs of a scam are all there. It's not "traditional". It's not fair. It's not honest. At least the MMA guys he's talked to are willing to put their money where their mouths are.
Shesulsa, you're distorting what he said just a tad and ignoring the meat of the issue for reasons which I plain don't understand.
How do you "check it out" if you aren't allowed to look? He's not allowed to even see what the training is leading to until he's spent several years and hundreds of dollars. If you can't feel and you can't see how can you make an informed decision? To throw it back at the student and say "I'd show him the door" for daring to ask for that proof isn't even close to logical let alone fair. How can he tell if he isn't allowed to gather any sort of evidence?
This isn't "tradition". The real old martial tradition is that you have to be able to defend your reputation one way or another. Back in the bad old days a newcomer could demand to "run the boards" and fight everyone in the school in order of seniority. Fortunately we don't do that any more. The point remains, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. The claim is "I've got chops. I can teach you to jam." To say that you'll have to wait for years for a chance to even watch people show their skills let alone feel them ridiculous.
When you say "the traditionalists have nothing to prove" you're absolutely, 100% ipso facto wrong. If they're taking your money they're selling you something. If they're selling something there needs to be a way the customer can see if it's real or fantasy. If you want to get less ploddingly literal and go with the honor and traditions of the martial arts it's even worse. The teacher is asking you to stake your life on the unproven thesis that he can fight and teach you to fight. He's asking for the "traditional" (it depends on which tradition) of a student's loyalty which used to be worth something. Once again (and again and again since it bears repeating) the burden is on him, not the student, to provide some sort of bona fides. If he doesn't provide a means of checking it out he's showing total unforgivable disrespect for someone from whom he is demanding trust and loyalty.
Yes, the MMA people have their problems. Sparring too early can lead to problems. But at least the MMA people will say "OK, let's roll. If I can submit you I can submit you. If you can submit me then you can submit me." That's a degree of honesty that a person can appreciate. You know where you stand. You can see and feel. There are results which are objectively and independently verifiable. You can check and see how the coach's stable does in competition. Yes, yes, all the usual caveats and warnings. But it's something anyone can look at as real evidence.
I'm thinking of the very traditional teachers I've studied under.
The wonderful people whom I learned Judo from thirty some years ago had beginners doing randori fairly early on. And everyone trained in the same class.
The Okinawa Te (master teaching certificates direct from Okinawa) guys were always up for sparring. And beginners were encouraged to watch the Black Belts because they would see good form even if they couldn't quite appreciate what was going on.
Sifu Al Dacascos had a couple banners in his back room. They were from very old-style Chinese martial arts schools. In his younger dumber days he'd gone in, made the correct polite challenge, beat everyone from the beginners to the chief instructor and walked out with the school flag. That's how they did it. And that's what a half-breed Chinese-Filipino had to do to get taken seriously.
The Eskrimadors? Oh man! They wouldn't make challenges. That would have been immoral. But they'd have beaten me with sticks if I backed down from one. And they were eager to cross sticks with people in a friendly way so that you could see the quality.
Kendo? Yup. You don't put on armor for a while, but you get to see more advanced students sparring all the time. Same theory as the Okinawans.
My Silat teachers have always been happy to show or let you feel. Remember what I said about Guru Plinck's little old Indonesian grandmother? "But Stevie, can he fight?" My first Silat teacher said from the first day I trained with him "You're welcome to try me any time. But if you try to hurt me I'll hurt you." Let's just say that Brandt is a unique individual and leave it at that
With Guru Plinck it isn't like that. But if you want a demonstration he'll arrange one so that you know what you're getting into, how it works and whether it works. Once he let a guy spar anyone in the class. He could do whatever. All we could do was enter, set and trip. First person on the ground for whatever reason lost. The guy went away a believer. Nobody got hurt. Do you see what I'm getting at? All of these traditions include ways for the student to make an informed decision. Primal Kuen was never offered anything of the sort, just the usual cult of personality, shut up roundeye BS. Maybe the school is fantastic. But the warning signs of a scam are all there. It's not "traditional". It's not fair. It's not honest. At least the MMA guys he's talked to are willing to put their money where their mouths are.
Where?
I didn't say "the traditionalists have nothing to prove" - I said ... and I quote ...
This is a statement based upon my impression of the posture of other traditional stylists - whether I agree with it or whether it is fact are not part of my statement.
I won't be drug into the My mucky-muck vs. Your mucky-muck argument. Unrecognizable goo, remember?
I think he should have done his homework first and, since he is no longer comfortable with the "absence of proof" that he should have a conversation with his instructor. I also think there is nothing wrong with waiting to start free sparring or any other kind of randori. When I read your first post, our opinions are more alike than it seems you want to think.
As I said -- I'm not really comfortable assessing someone else's teaching methods from a report of a student who's only been training a few months. That's barely long enough to have an idea of what's going on... let alone to really know what the training sequence is. It's very possible that the basic classes start sparring related exercises at 5 months... or that they'll add a beginner sparring class as soon as they have enough students with the experience and skills.
Sparring is more than merely rocking & rolling; sparring should be a method of practice aimed at developing skill in the use of the learned techniques under pressure. That means you've got to have a certain level of skill to free spar! Of course you can do exercises that develop sparring skills before you're ready for free sparring.
In this particular case -- if the student is unhappy with the structure and methods of the school, or the style, or lacks faith in the instructor, they should go elsewhere. It's that simple... But I'm also reminded of a few stories I've read. They share a common thread; I'm going to summarize two of them.
First, there was a lad who went to one of the greatest Noh performers to learn the craft. He spent years learning a single speech, never being allowed to perform it for any one other than his teacher, and never being allowed to learn any other piece. One night, in frustration, he snuck out. He went to an inn, and entered what must have amounted to an impromptu karaoke competition. He won easily... and to great acclaim.
In the other, a student approached a sword master, wanting to learn the sword. He was accepted as a student, and spent a year doing menial chores while the master would attack him at random moments -- but never being allowed to pick up a sword. By the end of it -- the master was unable to surprise him, and unable to strike him... Again, we find a frustrated student running off... And again, we find a frustrated student amazed at how much skill he had developed without knowing when the teacher was teaching!
A good teacher has a method to their instruction, whether they're a traditional martial artist or a MMA coach. They shape it to the student's needs -- even when the student doesn't realize what they need. If the student can't trust the teacher's methods -- they should go elsewhere.
Sparring is more than merely rocking & rolling; sparring should be a method of practice aimed at developing skill in the use of the learned techniques under pressure. That means you've got to have a certain level of skill to free spar! Of course you can do exercises that develop sparring skills before you're ready for free sparring.
In this particular case -- if the student is unhappy with the structure and methods of the school, or the style, or lacks faith in the instructor, they should go elsewhere. It's that simple... But I'm also reminded of a few stories I've read. They share a common thread; I'm going to summarize two of them.
First, there was a lad who went to one of the greatest Noh performers to learn the craft. He spent years learning a single speech, never being allowed to perform it for any one other than his teacher, and never being allowed to learn any other piece. One night, in frustration, he snuck out. He went to an inn, and entered what must have amounted to an impromptu karaoke competition. He won easily... and to great acclaim.
In the other, a student approached a sword master, wanting to learn the sword. He was accepted as a student, and spent a year doing menial chores while the master would attack him at random moments -- but never being allowed to pick up a sword. By the end of it -- the master was unable to surprise him, and unable to strike him... Again, we find a frustrated student running off... And again, we find a frustrated student amazed at how much skill he had developed without knowing when the teacher was teaching!
A good teacher has a method to their instruction, whether they're a traditional martial artist or a MMA coach. They shape it to the student's needs -- even when the student doesn't realize what they need. If the student can't trust the teacher's methods -- they should go elsewhere.
If anyone joins any club without investigating whether or not it's for them, then it's up to that person to make their own subsequent decisions. If this guy purchased lessons not seeing what these guys can really do, then it's his error.
Since you said he said nothing about donning gear and getting the crap beat out of him, I'll point you to this post by him, fourth para. And yes, I would turn him out if he showed repeated and continued impatience at his level of training with an eagerness to learn advanced skills without completing basic and intermediate studies - that's just me.
But does he know what effective WC looks like? He knows that some MMAers kicked his butt - good for him. Does that make what he's doing ineffective? Some seem to think that the willingness to show anything to anybody indicates quality and effectiveness - it doesn't necessarily mean this. So ... who's really running the scam here?
I've seen people chomping at the bit to see that they're paying for effective study have a taste and then become so bored with their level of training they can't think about anything else but three or four levels ahead. So why set him up for failure in this case?
Of course he has a right to know what he's buying - perhaps a discussion of his goals with the instructor and asking, respectfully, about the secrecy of advanced classes would be in order?
I will not engage with you in the MMA vs. TMA argument - it's not even a dead horse anymore, it's an unrecognizable mass of goo.
What I will say, without ego and with honesty, is that I see a lot of people these days who feel that their dollar entitles them to certain knowledge at a certain level when they want it, how they want it. And do you want to know what I think about that? It's bull ****. I'm not required to show ANYbody ANYthing just because they have the money. If I think they demonstrate to me good character, trustworthiness, many of the tenets that I think are important consistently over a fair amount of time such that they may learn deadly techniques, then I'll proceed as I think best. To show anyone with a buck and the willingness to learn how to fight, maim and kill is flat out irresponsible in my opinion. And to me, that's what traditional martial arts are all about.
:asian:
See my post here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=861856&postcount=15
I agree that one is not required to teach anyone anything. Responsibility is still required. Now, even if there is trust and later it is broken then at least the instructor can state they stopped teaching once the lack of trust occurred.
OP
OP
Primal Kuen
Yellow Belt
Just to be clear, I have spoken with my instructor on this...and I have never been disrespectful on any level with him or any of his students.
I know perfectly well what the curriculum is in the school, at my level and beyond. There is no contact sparring until Blue sash...which is approx 1.5 years into it. Please do not assume that I am "demanding" or impatient in wanting to learn techniques beyond my level. that is not true.
I do however want to be able to defend myself TO SOME DEGREE after 6 months to a year of training, even if it is a very basic defense. And if this school does not provide the opportunity to practice the application of the principles I am learning...then perhaps this school is not for me. And that's fine, it is his school after all, and it is also my money.
I have spoken to several other WC schools around here and each of them teach the students to apply the teqniques of WC much earlier on; not to mention offer twice the amount of classes per week for the same amount of $. And all levels of students attend the same class without secrecy...which is more to my liking.
Anyway, I thank you all for your input ...this really had me down for a while. I'm not a quitter, and the thought of leaving this school was a hard decision for me. Your input and the input of others has helped me move on ( and not feel bad for doing so) .
Thanks again....
I know perfectly well what the curriculum is in the school, at my level and beyond. There is no contact sparring until Blue sash...which is approx 1.5 years into it. Please do not assume that I am "demanding" or impatient in wanting to learn techniques beyond my level. that is not true.
I do however want to be able to defend myself TO SOME DEGREE after 6 months to a year of training, even if it is a very basic defense. And if this school does not provide the opportunity to practice the application of the principles I am learning...then perhaps this school is not for me. And that's fine, it is his school after all, and it is also my money.
I have spoken to several other WC schools around here and each of them teach the students to apply the teqniques of WC much earlier on; not to mention offer twice the amount of classes per week for the same amount of $. And all levels of students attend the same class without secrecy...which is more to my liking.
Anyway, I thank you all for your input ...this really had me down for a while. I'm not a quitter, and the thought of leaving this school was a hard decision for me. Your input and the input of others has helped me move on ( and not feel bad for doing so) .
Thanks again....
PK, While I'm sorry for the internal struggle that you've had to go through I am also empathetic to it. I, and many many others here, have been through the same battle with ourselves. Ultimately, it is your path and your path alone to travel and you must do what is in your best interest. In my case I wound up changing to a style that was 189 degrees different from my first one...kempo to aikido and I couldn't be happier. I truly hope that this change will be for the best. At least this time when you were checking out other schools you had a little bit of first hand knowledge regarding what you were looking for. Good luck and please do keep us posted on how your training is going.
tellner
Senior Master
Shesulsa, I'll say it again in as many ways as necessary...
He doesn't seem to be doing anything at all wrong. He is asking reasonable answers and getting nothing from his teacher. You're setting a literally impossible standard for him and blaming him for wanting to make sure he's not being scammed while also blaming him for not doing research in advance which he is not allowed to do. That's a number of serious logical contradictions right there. If you would be so kind as to untangle them I'd be obliged.
Further, you've painted ascribed a certain attitude to traditional martial artists. I think I have shown through ample data that this view is not factually correct. It is quite limited and very specific to certain strains of what the late Donn Draeger referred to as "Modern Budo". That is at best a serious distortion of the reality. If you can come up with a counterargument or evidence that would support your contention I'll be all ears.
He doesn't seem to be doing anything at all wrong. He is asking reasonable answers and getting nothing from his teacher. You're setting a literally impossible standard for him and blaming him for wanting to make sure he's not being scammed while also blaming him for not doing research in advance which he is not allowed to do. That's a number of serious logical contradictions right there. If you would be so kind as to untangle them I'd be obliged.
Further, you've painted ascribed a certain attitude to traditional martial artists. I think I have shown through ample data that this view is not factually correct. It is quite limited and very specific to certain strains of what the late Donn Draeger referred to as "Modern Budo". That is at best a serious distortion of the reality. If you can come up with a counterargument or evidence that would support your contention I'll be all ears.
Good - That's what I suggested he do.
What "impossible standard"? Where did I "blame him for wanting to make sure he's not being scammed?" I suggested he speak to his instructor about his goals. If he wasn't allowed to do research before he signed up and started training and he signed up and started training anyway ... you're saying this is the instructor's fault? Whether or not you agree with the instructor's policy (I can't say because, again, I do not know enough about WC and won't be forced into an opinion on it) our friend Primal signed up in blind faith apparently. I don't want to insult him, but yes, it is his doing.
Clearly we see my statements differently - though I have little doubt you wish to continue to try to drag me into the "TMA is bad" thing and I just won't do it.
You have? I thought you stated your opinion and personal relation of recounts of stories you've read or heard and a couple of personal experiences. I don't call that "ample data" but ... okay. Again, good for you - I'm glad you found something you feel good about ascribing to. *I* feel good about ascribing to the training I'm involved in. Good for us. And good for Primal because he's made his decision and will move on to a school which will better suit his needs - I think he needed to do that.
I'm not sure what part of "I'm not going to get into that argument with you" you don't understand, but ... for the sake of repetition (always a good drill) ... I'm not going to get into that argument with you.
Primal Kuen: As a newer student, a younger color belt, I questioned the purpose of many of the training tools and restrictions my teacher placed upon me. I've been doing this for 10 years now in my current style and have been in the Martial Arts lifestyle for 15+. I can't count how many we've lost because they wanted what they wanted when they wanted it. I also can't count how many people have come into our dojang wanting "evidence" only to walk out holding their wrists, rubbing their shoulders, etc. Some bowed to my teacher when they left - others didn't but those never came back. So, you see, I have all the proof I need ... for me.
Good luck and I do hope you share with us how your new training hall works out.
