Bujinkan took many techniques from Pirates

[shesulsa]

*holds breath*

Nochi Kagami, Go Kagami, Bansenshukai, Shoninki, Ninpiden, Iranki, the diary of a 16th century Todai-ji monk.....

*releases breath*

Just to name a few.

Wow! How'd you say all that while holding your breath? :uhyeah:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I have come to hold the 'more myth than reality' view given that no serious history that I've read gave credence to the existence of Ninja Clans as a 'secret' strata of Japanese society.

That particular perspective on history was more or less a creation of Stephen Hayes. I kind of doubt that even he himself supports it these days.

 

[newtothe dark]

This has turned into a great thread so much funny posts and yes bydad the wenchs rule!!!!! no disrepect to the ladies

 

[bydand]

Have to agree newtothe dark this is a good thread. Also I meant zero disrespect about the wenches comment, just figured talking about pirates it was going to be about the only time I would get to use that without getting slapped down.




P.S. it's bydand. bydad makes it sound like, well, ....irate3:

:lfao: JK it was too easy to let slide past you know.

 

[heretic888]

Cheers, Heretic. I'll look into those.

Like I said to Bandit, I've been studying Japanese history for twenty years or more and have never come across a source that was convincing.

I have come to hold the 'more myth than reality' view given that no serious history that I've read gave credence to the existence of Ninja Clans as a 'secret' strata of Japanese society. Of course, as maybe your noted references will prove, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that I just haven't read the right texts.

Hi Sukerkin,

I'm not really sure what you're arguing here.

If you are suggesting there is little evidence to support the historical reality of the Iga-shu or Koga-shu, then all I can say is keep searching. Its easy to find, even if one is just dealing with English language sources. Turnbull's books alone should have more than enough period accounts to demonstrate these guys really did exist.

If you are suggesting, however, that the historical Iga and Koga groups were in fact, not some super-secret cultish underground of spies and assassins, then well, you'll find no disagreement from me. That tripe mostly comes from early English language exposures such as Donn Draeger's writings on ninjutsu or The Shogun. Hayes, of course, intensified and popularized this metanarrative, but he didn't invent it.

We can be relatively certain that the Iga-shu and Koga-shu:

• really did exist
• were primarily samurai families (typically jizamurai and kokujin) who specialized in intelligence and unorthodox warfare
• organized their communities on the basis of a regional alliance (ikki) of villages and castles, without a daimyo per se (the Koga-shu technically had a daimyo, but they made a sort of agreement with his family for their relative autonomy and independence)
• avoided formal alliances with outside forces, preferring to sell their services on a case-by-case basis (a la "mercenaries") --- however, they tended to have very consistent "customers" (such as the Matsudaira/Tokugawa)
• were held in esteem by both the Ashikaga and Tokugawa shogunates
• were mammals

Sorry, I couldn't help myself with that last one.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I'll go to bed without eating a cookie tonight. Thanks.

 

[Sukerkin]

Hi Heretic

Yes, we're on the same page on this it would seem.

The mythologised Ninja are the bane of any serious discussion of the subject and that's what I'm referring to whenever I get all 'spouty' on the topic.

Even when I cry "There's no such thing as Ninja" at the top of my lungs, what I'm on about is that there was no seperate caste that performed the functions attributed to ninja and that all Samurai could potentially to be called on to perform assassination, espionage et al that most people think the 'noble' warriors were too 'pure' to indulge in.

Anyhow, still too laid-up to make much sense but thanks for taking the time to put out not only a list of sources but a neat thumbnail of the 'reasonable' stance on the place of ninja in Japanese culture. Needless to say, because of their availablility, I have many of Turnbull's works (as well as Draeger's) and a number of lesser known English language general/specific period history texts. My Japanese language is still not good enough to read untranslated texts, which is a shortfall I'm working on, so time will tell how that goes .

 

[elder999]

No. A boarding pike is not a grapple. It is a pike, a spear. I've got a couple authentic ones and have done a little research into the history. The European and American ones tended to be triangular cross section spears on anything from four to eight foot shafts. Some were socketed. Some had tangs. None would have been any use as a grapple.

I actually have more than a dozen authentic boarding pikes-some with their original shafts intact, in addition to some other antique goodies-a couple of cutlasses, firearms, boarding and trade axes….scrimshaw… you’ll find that most of my ancestors from the beginning of the 20th century back to the mid-18th century were sailors-captains, in fact-on whaling and merchant ships, as well as some others… this man, was my great-grandfather’s brother, and this man was the brother of my great-great-great-great grandfather.

Admittedly, none of these people were ‘pirates,” but a pretty broad knowledge of maritime traditions, including martial arts, has been part of my family’s heritage and education for, well, hundreds of years-in addition to the native traditions of lacrosse, baggataway and the gajeewah, my father taught me a fair amount about using those wonderful maritime tools, just as his father taught him, and my great grandfather taught my grandfather, and so on…if any of you are ever in Sag Harbor, NY, you should go to the Whaling Museum, and see the numerous items donated by the my grandfather, ….er…Aaron J. Cuffee :lol:

With that said,no,pikes wouldn’t have been any use as a conventional “grapple,” in the sense that you mean-as in reaching over and “grappling’ the ship over, or pulling oneself up by them,their points are not at all suited to that. However, in a boarding action-especially one where ramps were used, they could be used to “grapple” an opposing sailor out of the way or overboard, either by (as I stated earlier) the fact of the weapon being embedded in their flesh, or entangled in clothes. Rather than pulling the weapon out of a person, their body would be leveraged to the side-especially in the frequent case wounds that did not prove to be immediately fatal. If you consider the state of affairs in which the weapon was sometimes used-one mass of people trying to prevent another from passing-this was a fair strategy for opening up a hole in that mass, and allowing passage. Those shorter pikes could especially work this way, though they were more often used one-handedly, just to poke a hole in someone, or feint to allow a cut with a weapon held in the other hand

Other than their use in leveraging someone out of the way, pikes were also classified as “grapples,’ or, more contemporaneously, grapnels-though a grapnel is more properly an anchor, both words have their root in “grape vine,” implying entanglement, and were interchangeable at the time. As for pikes, while often positioned about the deck of a ship, they were also stowed with the proper grapples and boarding tools, and thus came to be classified as such at the time-so it’s also simply a matter of terminology at the time…..though it may be exclusive to my family, for all I know, as the only documents from the time where I’ve seen it referred to as such is in the ships logs that have been passed down to me…

Now, what about the Kuki family being "naval samurai?"

 

[tellner]

That makes more sense. I misread and thought you meant that they were designed as "grapples" in the technical sense.

Some time I'd like to do a bit of "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours" with the Age of Sail weapons. I'm always interested in seeing examples, particularly ones that saw use and have the wear marks on them. There's a lot you can learn from those.

 

[newtothe dark]

Have to agree newtothe dark this is a good thread. Also I meant zero disrespect about the wenches comment, just figured talking about pirates it was going to be about the only time I would get to use that without getting slapped down.




P.S. it's bydand. bydad makes it sound like, well, ....irate3:

:lfao: JK it was too easy to let slide past you know.

opps sorry was at work and was typing fast :bow:

 

[Jade Tigress]

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[Eireannach]

You wake up in the morning and you hear noise from the roof, like the feet of hundreds of small squirrels, but then you're not sure if the noise is coming from the roof, or from a neighbor's apartment, or from inside a book...

Then you're dancing around a toaster oven while singing your year, month and date of birth backwards, and on the other side there's this badger dancing in the opposite direction, and then suddenly you realize that there's this small elephant made out of marzipan inside the toaster shouting "let me out! Let me out!"

It's really strange, the way people look at you sometimes.

I actually had to log in to say, love your work. That made me laugh hard.

 

[DavidCC]

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Pamela Piszczek
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I'm just curious what that original topic was - was it "are ninjas really priates without boats?"

:LOL:

 

[shesulsa]

I'm just curious what that original topic was - was it "are ninjas really priates without boats?"

:LOL:

Please remember that not all in-thread warnings from staff are for the post immediately preceding the warning post.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Admin.

 

[elder999]

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Well, I was serious about my question, if anyone knows:

Now, what about the Kuki family being "naval samurai?"

 

[theletch1]

The original topic was that ninja learned many of their techniques from pirates.

 

[newtothe dark]

The only thing I have come up with is the kamayari looks like a naval type/pirate %-} weapon. (I posted earlier but didn't rememeber the weapons name)

 

[elder999]

The original topic was that ninja learned many of their techniques from pirates.

Yeah, but my question is legitimate and relevant: a far better explanation for a "similarity in techniques," than "ninjas learning pirate techniques."
Though I have to say that "pirate fighting arts" seem to be pretty far from something I’d call "technique."
Anyway, as posted here :

Kukishinden Ryu Happo Hikenjutsu - 28th Soke
Translation: "nine demons' divine transmission" happo hikenjutsu "eight secret weapons arts"
Summary: This is a battlefield art. The weapons can be quite large, including spear and halberd. Techniques are done assuming the combatants are wearing armor, and the movements reflect this The techniques in Kukishinden ryu are said to have come from China and the land beyond China and is also said to be founded in the 12th century. This system was used as a naval art, and consequently the movements are designed for use on a ship that is slippery and rocking. Sensei Ueshiba the founder of modern Aikido, in his youth studied the art of Kukishinden ryu Happo Hiken jutsu from the Kuki family

And Here:

Part of the Kuki family has branched of to manning and comanding the Kumano navy which dealt in many maritime areas including piracy. This system have been used as a naval art, and consequently the movements are designed to be used on a ship that is slippery and rocking.

And , from Russ Ebert’s website:

The Kukis dominated the sea surrounding Japan by commanding the iron-plated battleship "The Nippon Maru" in the Shokuho period

So, if the ryuha contains naval techniques, it might seem similar to someone who was actually studying real maritime technique-though who knows how often that Disneyesque fellow has been before the mast

 

[Bujingodai]

Alot of trends, the Ninja craze nuts in the 80's with Sho and the crew, in the 90's other things like the movie "The Craft" spawned a new foray into the occult and witchcraft and now look what Johnnie Depp has done to us all.

I have actually read alot of the connections, my Shodoshi spoke of it alot actually in class, but this website just makes me wet my pants.
I really must get myself an outfit.

 

[theletch1]

Yeah, but my question is legitimate and relevant: a far better explanation for a "similarity in techniques," than "ninjas learning pirate techniques."
Though I have to say that "pirate fighting arts" seem to be pretty far from something I’d call "technique."
Anyway, as posted here :

And Here:



And , from Russ Ebert’s website:

So, if the ryuha contains naval techniques, it might seem similar to someone who was actually studying real maritime technique-though who knows how often that Disneyesque fellow has been before the mast

I can certainly see where many techniques would have a maritime influence...especially since Japan is an island. I could even go along with the OP had he given us a link to a website where the pirates were garbed in oriental garb. I find it hard to believe that the bujinkan stole their techniques from Eddie Teach.