Breaking

[rickster]

That statement is incorrect. It is not a marketing tool. It is a training tool.

If the student cannot execute a technique correctly, s/he will not break the board. It give immediate feedback on what needs to be worked on. If the technique is executed correctly, again there is immediate feedback from the success of the board break. When one fails to break a board, there is incentive to learn correct technique: it never hurts to break a board, it only hurts when you don't break it. And as someone much smarter than I am once said:

This is incorrect.

Non martial artists have broke boards.

All that is required is a understanding of physics, choice of material, and a little psyche.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That statement is incorrect. It is not a marketing tool. It is a training tool.

If the student cannot execute a technique correctly, s/he will not break the board. It give immediate feedback on what needs to be worked on. If the technique is executed correctly, again there is immediate feedback from the success of the board break. When one fails to break a board, there is incentive to learn correct technique: it never hurts to break a board, it only hurts when you don't break it. And as someone much smarter than I am once said:
"Pain is a wonderful teacher, but no one wants to attend his classes."

This is incorrect.

Non martial artists have broke boards.

How is he incorrect? Where did he say that non-martial artists haven't broken boards? Your response doesn't make much sense.

Breaking objects with parts of one's body is in no way specific the martial arts anyway. People have been doing that since before recorded history in order to impress their peers or girls.

Anyway, as I mentioned in a previous post, tameshiwari is not common to all martial arts. Many styles do not use it, even if they do that sort of conditioning. It seem to be (and I could be mistaken) limited to Japanese and Okinawan arts, or those strongly influenced by them, such as taekwondo and tangsudo. I have never heard of breaking being common in CMA. Maybe a CMA-ist could address that.

All that is required is a understanding of physics, choice of material, and a little psyche.

Sure. Martial arts techniques are entirely applied physics. Whether or not the student understands it in that way is irrelevant. If the breaker does not have a good angle, isn't applying the force with the right part of their hand, or doesn't apply enough force, he or she will not meet with success and may also injure their hand.

If you execute the technique incorrectly and don't break the board, then you are not correctly applying your understanding of physics or lack that understanding.

 

[Xue Sheng]

 

[pgsmith]

Gonna throw my two cent's worth in here ...
Breaking seems to me to be the unarmed equivalent of target cutting in the Japanese sword arts, as Daniel mentioned earlier, so I want to address it from that standpoint as that is what I am familiar with. As rickster mentioned (using terrible grammar) "Non martial artists have broke boards." This is very true, just as non practitioners can cut targets. However, in target cutting within the Japanese sword arts, the objective is not to "cut the target", but to "cut the target correctly". I feel that it is no doubt the same within those arts that practice breaking. It is one thing to hit hard enough to break the board, brick, whatever ... It is something else entirely to do it while maintaining proper balance, body motion, stance, awareness, etc ... I've had any number of people over the years that began by cutting things in their backyard with a sword before deciding they wanted to actually learn the art. Every single one has been surprised at just how much harder it is to cut correctly, rather than to just cut something.

 

[ATC]

Yet he still broke them at demos he gave ;-)

 

[zDom]

Failing a break can often be the best lesson in teaching a martial artist to strike with conviction.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Interesting thread! Answers a lot of questions I had about the purpose of breaking myself, given that I am not in an art that practices it

Just a quick extra question though, a while (couple of years) ago in one of National Geographic's Fight Science specials, they had a couple of guys who were running around breaking things left right and centre. Huge blocks of ice, concrete, brick walls etc. From memory, they went through a brief explanation of how with each time you break something, the trauma causes re-calcification of the bones, creating "walls" and increasing their density. What are your thoughts on this? Would there be any adverse effects to the body as a result on repetitive breaking?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just a quick extra question though, a while (couple of years) ago in one of National Geographic's Fight Science specials, they had a couple of guys who were running around breaking things left right and centre. Huge blocks of ice, concrete, brick walls etc. From memory, they went through a brief explanation of how with each time you break something, the trauma causes re-calcification of the bones, creating "walls" and increasing their density. What are your thoughts on this? Would there be any adverse effects to the body as a result on repetitive breaking?

I suspect that the answer is yes. Probably not the least of which might be arthritis.

 

[rickster]

Breaking = No Test of fighting Skill

Breaking = Confidence

(Too much) Confidence = False Complacency

(Too much) False Complacency = Dangerous Real Life situation.

Break if you want to, but soon you have to age, grow up, and realise it was all about hype

You can compare it to sword cutting (which I dont know if this is needed in this modern age)'

You can compare it to focus or strike with conviction.
Because in fighting/defense, you dont have the time to focus in that manner.
Under the stress of defense, the only conviction you have is that to get out of the situation "quick"

In short, breaking is like nunchakus and balisong knives, they are not that much of a neccesity, but they only "look cool"

 

[Supra Vijai]

Breaking = No Test of fighting Skill

Breaking = Confidence

(Too much) Confidence = False Complacency

(Too much) False Complacency = Dangerous Real Life situation.

Break if you want to, but soon you have to age, grow up, and realise it was all about hype

You can compare it to sword cutting (which I dont know if this is needed in this modern age)'

You can compare it to focus or strike with conviction.
Because in fighting/defense, you dont have the time to focus in that manner.
Under the stress of defense, the only conviction you have is that to get out of the situation "quick"

In short, breaking is like nunchakus and balisong knives, they are not that much of a neccesity, but they only "look cool"

Alright sure, over confidence = complacency = dangerous in real life. But look through all the posts here by so many who have done some form of breaking. A common theme across the board is building focus, targeting, striking correctly and through the target etc. All of that means power generation and the knowledge that needs. If getting out of a situation means you can't run, so you hit the other guy once in the jaw and he drops allowing you to walk away - isn't that perfect self defense?

What way are you using the nunchakus or balisong knives? If you mean the fancy twirly flipping stuff then sure, that's for demos. I doubt that's the only application for them in a fight and anyone trained in them would know the difference.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Because in fighting/defense, you dont have the time to focus in that manner.
Under the stress of defense, the only conviction you have is that to get out of the situation "quick"

Oh by the way, we do a lot of adrenaline training both in the Dojo and out and on more than one occasion I have quite literally dropped my training partner with my adrenaline pumping and with the shakes setting in. Conviction to get out of the situation "quick" does not mean you can't or won't hit hard if that what it takes

 

[rickster]

Oh by the way, we do a lot of adrenaline training both in the Dojo and out and on more than one occasion I have quite literally dropped my training partner with my adrenaline pumping and with the shakes setting in. Conviction to get out of the situation "quick" does not mean you can't or won't hit hard if that what it takes

That's adrenaline, not focus like in breaking.

We ARE talking about Breaking and Focusing aspect of Breaking

Everyone has adrenaline and use it under stress-no skill.

Thus, everyone can break a board not having a skill.

Speaking of which, I've known people, without learning breaking or a martial art, upon a adrenaline dump, do amazing things, including defense (and board breaking as party tricks)

 

[rickster]

Yet he(Bruce) still broke them at demos he gave ;-)

Yep. It was to look "cool and get attention"

 

[rickster]

This is not a bad thing in my opinion. Failure, even infront of a room full of people can teach a powerful lesson. You will fail in front of many people many times in life. So we need to teach this to our kids and then how to overcome that failure as well. This is why I teach TKD, not to learn how to simply kick and punch but the life lessons.

Parents and peers of the majority of the non-martial art population do this daily/weekly/365 days

That said, because they do not need TKD, or Breaking, they still get these features.


(not knocking TKD or martial arts)

 

[rickster]

 

[Supra Vijai]

That's adrenaline, not focus like in breaking.

We ARE talking about Breaking and Focusing aspect of Breaking

Everyone has adrenaline and use it under stress-no skill.

Thus, everyone can break a board not having a skill.

Speaking of which, I've known people, without learning breaking or a martial art, upon a adrenaline dump, do amazing things, including defense (and board breaking as party tricks)

I get that, my comment was purely an observation that all the power generation drills we do or Breaking others may do would still in some way carry over in a real world situation. It's not completely wasted effort.

 

[rickster]

I get that, my comment was purely an observation that all the power generation drills we do or Breaking others may do would still in some way carry over in a real world situation. It's not completely wasted effort.

Sure it can be a wasted effort.

Because other martial arts and artists do not use breaking and get the same, if not better results

You don't need breaking, ranking, or other so-called things of display, or even "martial arts", to apply this over to a "real world situation"

Bottom line. Breaking is a "feel good, because its cool" thing

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Even if the only thing it gains is confidence, that would still be a good thing. Bullies dont pick on confident kids, they pick on the kids who look like they lack confidence. My first instructor used to tell young kids in the class that if they dont want to get picked on at school to walk around looking confident, not cocky, just confident. Breaking is a useful tool in training, those that understand breaking and why its done realise this. Its like forms/kata, people who dont do MA look at them and wonder what use they could possibly have. Those that do them know better.

 

[rickster]

Even if the only thing it gains is confidence, that would still be a good thing. Bullies dont pick on confident kids, they pick on the kids who look like they lack confidence. My first instructor used to tell young kids in the class that if they dont want to get picked on at school to walk around looking confident, not cocky, just confident. Breaking is a useful tool in training, those that understand breaking and why its done realise this. Its like forms/kata, people who dont do MA look at them and wonder what use they could possibly have. Those that do them know better.

I do agree that breaking can add a confidence.

However, if a teacher realizes there are other methods, they would not have to use breaking (or ranking) to instill this.
Other schools do not have these.
(I have studied at other schools who did not have breaking. Are we to conclude that without breaking, there is no confidence building?)

Nor does the majority of society.
Confidence can be obtained even without martial arts (breaking-ranking)

Speaking of bullies, some bullies would go after anyone, confident or not.
In other words, confidence is not the only thing someone can use.
Confidence should not be over-bearing.
Over-confident is a bad thing.
It can become a false sense of complacency
(I know of a few situations this had happened)

Speaking of forms, other martial art schools do not do these also.
Are we to conclude those which do not, have no value?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I do agree that breaking can add a confidence.

However, if a teacher realizes there are other methods, they would not have to use breaking (or ranking) to instill this.
Other schools do not have these.
(I have studied at other schools who did not have breaking. Are we to conclude that without breaking, there is no confidence building?)

Nor does the majority of society.
Confidence can be obtained even without martial arts (breaking-ranking)

Speaking of bullies, some bullies would go after anyone, confident or not.
In other words, confidence is not the only thing someone can use.
Confidence should not be over-bearing.
Over-confident is a bad thing.

Speaking of forms, other martial art schools do not do these also.
Are we to conclude those which do not, have no value?

Firstly, if you talk to a child psycologist you will find that very rarely, if ever, do bullies go after confident kids. Bullies lack confidence themselves and almost always have other underlying issues, they bully others to try and gain importance and confidence, they will always pick on kids they know they will beat. Breaking, like forms/katas are a great training tool, thats not to say that schools not using these tools have no value. We had a guy start training with us recently from another club who did no breaking. On one of his first nights we were doing spin hook kicks and breaking timber, this guy had a good kick and would constantly hit the timber but couldnt break it. After looking closely we realised his accuracy was lacking, not by much, maybe an inch or two. He told me later that after years of just kicking pads he had never realised his kick was slightly "out". Since doing regular timber breaking he now hits the board dead centre everytime. Surely accuracy is of benefit in fighting.