Breaking News: Daedo to be used at the London 2012 Olympics

[ATC]

That's not what you said. I reported that LaJust doesn't work and that there were those who were actively lobbying for LaJust not to be used at the London Olympic Games, because so much was at stake and we could actually lose Olympic status because of it. You then went off on that, even when I and others stated that we were not against electronic scoring, just LaJust. I have been stating for years that Daedo was the best system out there, that it should be Daedo and not LaJust, which most agree was the worst system out there. To say that we need LaJust to set the standard is like saying we need exploding Pintos to set the standard for car safety. We don't need LaJust for anything, just like we don't need exploding Ford Pintos.

Ummm...Please re-read what I said once again. This is why I stopped debating with you as I can tell you read and take what you want, not what the person is saying. You seem to only focus on the very narrow. You take everything litteral and don't have the ability of inferance.

Here is the link to what I said and my exact words. http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1392661&postcount=54
Here is the quote and I will bold my points I made since you did not read them.

My point was that the model T Ford was a real machine that did not work all that well and was not as good as a horse but that did not stop the progress. Now looking back who would ride a horse as their means of transportation. I can't equate a fictional thing to a real thing.

Point being, EPP is here to stay, you must change and grow with this system and others to come. LaJust is just the one system and one of the first to be used in production. Will it be around in 10 years? Who knows but something will and LaJust paved the way. 1st Gen stuff never is the best. Just look at the fist Mac's or PC's They were rediculious. The Iphone has more computing power than anything that got us to the moon.

You can't spend your time complaining once the milk is spilt, you can only clean it up. If all the energy use in simply complaining was use to help fix or even create and make a better system was use then we would be well ahead of what we have today.

Maybe we should all be sending in list of issue with the system and asking for the fixes and not just complaining that my guy thinks this sucks.

I work in High Tech. I see products developed all the time. They all suck in the beginning. But the companies take feed back and make the products better and better. But just saying it sucks won't help the company or the person using it.

Your response was some mumbo jumbo about back to the future and my feedback not being of any consern.

These systems will get better and better, but just saying it dose not work or it sucks will not help the process one bit. You help by constuctively pointing out the issues as a whole.

 

[puunui]

Ummm...Please re-read what I said once again.

I think you need to re-read what you wrote.

This is why I stopped debating with you as I can tell you read and take what you want, not what the person is saying. You seem to only focus on the very narrow. You take everything litteral and don't have the ability of inferance.

Really. Funny because my seniors and teachers (as well as others) tell me that I have a very big picture view of things. That's why they enjoy discussing things with me, because I understand things from all points of view.

Here is the link to what I said and my exact words. http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1392661&postcount=54
Here is the quote and I will bold my points I made since you did not read them.

That is post 54 in the discussion. Try reading the earlier posts, where you said that the four or five time world champion who lost because of LaJust doesn't work was making excuses, and those sorts of things.

Your response was some mumbo jumbo about back to the future and my feedback not being of any consern.

It's wasn't mumbo jumbo. I compared LaJust to the time travelling Deloren in Back to the Future because both don't work. Apparently, that swiss company that chose Daedo agrees. As for your feedback not being of any concern, what I said was that you should give your feedback to your instructor, who can decide what do.

These systems will get better and better, but just saying it dose not work or it sucks will not help the process one bit. You help by constuctively pointing out the issues as a whole.

What I said was the LaJust simply does not work, and that there are those who are trying to make sure that LaJust is not used at the London Olympics. You took that to mean that I was saying all electronic gear sucks, and went from there. (Read the posts prior to the one you cite above). I was just letting people know what was going on at the highest levels, and look, here it is a couple of weeks later, LaJust is out and Daedo is in. I would think that people would be happy to know that there are those who are out there working to insure that Taekwondo remains in the Olympics beyond 2016, and that their work paid off. LaJust is out, and the world is cheering.

I mean really.

PS: What happened to the Sir?

 

[puunui]

I have read the contract and I know the mindset of this crew. As far as JO's and Nationals, in that they are not WTF sanctioned, David can use anything he wants and his contract with LaJust calls for using LaJust. I don't remember there being a clause that says if you are not chosen for the Olympics, then we can get out. Keep in mind the attorney involved in that contract from our end - think about it. USAT can get out of it, but I believe if it does, it would have to refund money that it doesn't have. When I asked at the 2009 BOD meeting what happened if we lose all the recreational athletes because they did not want to buy socks and pay to rent the hogues, could we get out - and the answer was yes there are ways. However, I don't see LaJust sitting back and saying that they will write off the six figures they paid for this deal because USAT wants out.

Who knows, perhaps LaJust will fold up and go bankrupt now that they were not selected for the London Olympics. A lot of things can happen. One good solution would be for USAT to file for bankruptcy, freeing up the successor organization to be free of LaJust. By the way, was the contract with LaJust a board decision? Is it in the minutes on how the directors voted?

Consequently, my take on the situation is that you will still be seeing LaJust at USAT events. USAT doesn't sanction Olympic Qualifiers and the Olympics, so the USAT contract with LaJust doesn't apply here.

What about the US Olympic Taekwondo Team Trials and the Olympic Team Trial track? Why do we have to use LaJust for those events?

What does matter is that as part of the deal the USAT teams have been working with LaJust and simply do not have the experience with Daedo that other countries have. But then, let's not forget, according to David's magazine article on "Rigorous Oversight" - we provide the team with bottled water and we don't skimp on their training. It will be most interesting to see how our Olympic Qualifier Team performs in Azerbijan.

Well, LaJust was the authorized electronic scoring system for USAT and also PATU, and the US got blanked and PATU countries took a beating. I want to say PATU countries only won a couple of medals at this year's world championships.

I think our team will do better using Daedo than LaJust. At least roundhouse kick scores on Daedo, unlike LaJust. A better question is how our team would have done at World Championships if Daedo vs. LaJust was used. Would we have had zero medals using Daedo?

 

[StudentCarl]

I think our team will do better using Daedo than LaJust. At least roundhouse kick scores on Daedo, unlike LaJust. A better question is how our team would have done at World Championships if Daedo vs. LaJust was used. Would we have had zero medals using Daedo?

Instead of looking back, take it forward:
The whole athlete selection process will be conducted using LaJust equipment because the events in the process are USAT sanctioned. If there's a difference between systems, then that invalidates the process and the people selected to that extent. It doesn't mean they are or are not capable of winning medals in London; it's just not a valid predictor...which is the point of the process.

Carl

 

[RSweet]

Who knows, perhaps LaJust will fold up and go bankrupt now that they were not selected for the London Olympics. A lot of things can happen. One good solution would be for USAT to file for bankruptcy, freeing up the successor organization to be free of LaJust. By the way, was the contract with LaJust a board decision? Is it in the minutes on how the directors voted?

ROFLOL - There was no vote. David told us he made the deal in August 2009. As CEO he makes deals and the board doesn't vote. He signs contracts and there is no discussion until afterwards. Want to know how many times we asked to see the coaches' contracts over the years and were told - next meeting and then the contracts were never produced. We had few details other than the more people we required to use LaJust gear, the more they paid upfront. Mark Biviano and I demanded to see the contract. We were handed copies at the December 2009 meeting where it was discussed and then copies taken back before you really had a chance to study it. Since the few observers had left, they missed that part. Nothing was voted upon. Collins said it was all good. When I brought up the possibility of losing competitors over the expense I was told it could be canceled and not to worry about it. Discussions do not make the minutes of the meetings.

What about the US Olympic Taekwondo Team Trials and the Olympic Team Trial track? Why do we have to use LaJust for those events?

They not WTF sanctioned events, so they fall under USAT National events and are covered by the contract.

Well, LaJust was the authorized electronic scoring system for USAT and also PATU, and the US got blanked and PATU countries took a beating. I want to say PATU countries only won a couple of medals at this year's world championships.

I think our team will do better using Daedo than LaJust. At least roundhouse kick scores on Daedo, unlike LaJust. A better question is how our team would have done at World Championships if Daedo vs. LaJust was used. Would we have had zero medals using Daedo?

The issue as someone else already mentioned is that you have to adjust your game to the system's quirks - like the kicks to the back which don't count w/LaJust. But didn't you hear? It is all the team's fault they didn't medal. They did not ask Diana, Steven and Mark for advice. They had the best of everything, the best coaches, the best facilities and the best training and they wasted it.

 

[hal-apino]

I have read the contract and I know the mindset of this crew. As far as JO's and Nationals, in that they are not WTF sanctioned, David can use anything he wants and his contract with LaJust calls for using LaJust. I don't remember there being a clause that says if you are not chosen for the Olympics, then we can get out. Keep in mind the attorney involved in that contract from our end - think about it. USAT can get out of it, but I believe if it does, it would have to refund money that it doesn't have. When I asked at the 2009 BOD meeting what happened if we lose all the recreational athletes because they did not want to buy socks and pay to rent the hogues, could we get out - and the answer was yes there are ways. However, I don't see LaJust sitting back and saying that they will write off the six figures they paid for this deal because USAT wants out.

Consequently, my take on the situation is that you will still be seeing LaJust at USAT events. USAT doesn't sanction Olympic Qualifiers and the Olympics, so the USAT contract with LaJust doesn't apply here. What does matter is that as part of the deal the USAT teams have been working with LaJust and simply do not have the experience with Daedo that other countries have. But then, let's not forget, according to David's magazine article on "Rigorous Oversight" - we provide the team with bottled water and we don't skimp on their training. It will be most interesting to see how our Olympic Qualifier Team performs in Azerbijan.

What kind of bottled water?

 

[Master Dan]

I truly understand all the concerns related to the different systems but can someone explain why any of it would matter if fighters were doing clean powerful penentrating techniques with hands and feet and the oponent is knocked down and cannot continue or bows out. the machine does not matter but it has evolved to point fighting not fighting.

Bruce once said mine in the art of fighting with out fighting?

Does it not bother any of you that no major network will give good time to TKD Olympics but will give major time to people swishing a broom in front of a pot on the ice??

Its Boring Boring Boring the anouncers have to be high or have a stuter to even sound excited or have something to report????????

 

[ATC]

I think you need to re-read what you wrote.

I wrote it, so I know what I wrote. It is right there in black, red, and blue for you.

Really. Funny because my seniors and teachers (as well as others) tell me that I have a very big picture view of things. That's why they enjoy discussing things with me, because I understand things from all points of view.

If you say so.

That is post 54 in the discussion. Try reading the earlier posts, where you said that the four or five time world champion who lost because of LaJust doesn't work was making excuses, and those sorts of things.

Yes I said that but that is not what this is about. And yes they are making excuses. LaJust can't make a bad fighter good and a good fighter should be able to adapt to the situation. If not then oh well I guess he/she was not that good after all.

It's wasn't mumbo jumbo. I compared LaJust to the time travelling Deloren in Back to the Future because both don't work. Apparently, that swiss company that chose Daedo agrees. As for your feedback not being of any concern, what I said was that you should give your feedback to your instructor, who can decide what do.

Again, not working and not even real are vastly different things. That is mumbo jumbo to me. But then that's me.

My Master can decide to do what he chooses as can I. I am a Level 1 coach and my feedback is just a important as anyones, Master or not. Anyone that has any stake in this sport is just as important as anyone, from the top to the bottom.

What I said was the LaJust simply does not work, and that there are those who are trying to make sure that LaJust is not used at the London Olympics. You took that to mean that I was saying all electronic gear sucks, and went from there. (Read the posts prior to the one you cite above). I was just letting people know what was going on at the highest levels, and look, here it is a couple of weeks later, LaJust is out and Daedo is in. I would think that people would be happy to know that there are those who are out there working to insure that Taekwondo remains in the Olympics beyond 2016, and that their work paid off. LaJust is out, and the world is cheering.

I mean really.

PS: What happened to the Sir?

Well where is the constructive feed back in it does not work? LaJust will simply get better or fail but EPP is here to stay. Daedo will have it problems also and more will cry, but better yet more will adapt and all will evolve.

And you already said Sir is not anything that you use or expect to be used.

Back on topic. Does anyone know if Daedo makes an eletronic head gear? If so will it be used? Also isn't there a Korean company that also makes an EPP system (I think it is called KPP or something like that, that is better or seemed better than both LaJust and Daedo? Has any heard of this system?

 

[RSweet]

I think we need to read the actual contract before giving any opinions on the matter. There may be a clause, although unlikely, that if another Electronic Scoring system is selected for the Olympic Games, then the contract is void, at least with respect to Olympic selection events. I would want language like that in if I were the USAT attorney reviewing the contract.

Even without such language, there may still be warranty for fitness for a particular use issues and other defenses which would allow USAT to get out of the contract, again, at least for the Olympic selection events.

But it does show once again the short sighted decision making at USAT, yet another issue for the USOC to consider during its audit of USAT. Signing a contract that actually lessens the chances of USA winning medals at the London Olympics cannot be a good thing from the USOC's perspective.

Am I psychic? David's statement reacting to the news. He even misses that the WTF did not make the decision:

he World Taekwondo Federation’s decision today to utilize another PSS company at the 2012 Olympic Games and Olympic qualification process will not affect USA Taekwondo's decision to use the LaJust PSS at its domestic events. “Although we are disappointed with the WTF’s decision we remain committed to using LaJust because we believe it is a tremendous PSS system,” said David Askinas, USA Taekwondo CEO. “LaJust performed flawlessly at the recent world championships in Korea and we will continue to work with them in advancing the sport of Taekwondo. LaJust remains a WTF-approved system and will be utilized at future international events.”
LaJust has been an industry leader in the production of its state-of-the-art PSS system and their dedication to excellence goes hand-in-hand with the mission of USA Taekwondo. LaJust continues to make improvements with its system and USA Taekwondo will continue to support them as we move forward.
"Obviously, I am disappointed with the WTF’s initial decision to use Daedo at the 2012 London Olympics,” stated Lajust President Gary Kuchachik. “LaJust remains committed to providing the best service and product to the Taekwondo community and remains committed to USAT in providing the very best PSS equipment."

 

[terryl965]

Well all I know is this Lajust is a bad system, points do not go up at times. You see competitor after competitor knock the crap out of somebody with a roundhouse and nothing. Not saying Daedo is any better but for the record they seem to have worked out some of the problem, we will see alot more usage of the front leg because it will score with Daedo. people will need to make adjustments between rounds and matches to be the best for that event.

On the other side Daedo is going to have a hard time filling orders, the e-mail I got today says it will be a two month waiting period once the initial 400 different size hogu's are gone and they only have two hundred pairs of socks before they are on a waiting list as well. So if anybody needs them they better be getting them now before they are on back order.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We don't need LaJust for anything, just like we don't need exploding Ford Pintos.

Nor non exploding Yugos.

Daniel

 

[ATC]

...Does it not bother any of you that no major network will give good time to TKD Olympics but will give major time to people swishing a broom in front of a pot on the ice??...

Now we are on to something. More efforts need to go into getting coverage for TKD. Is it becasue the powers that be don't promote or market to well? Maybe we need to cut some of the fat at the top and use that money to bring in some good marketing people. It is all about promotion and for some reason USA TKD does not do that.

I know that in Europe they do get air time but not here. Network execs will put anything on TV, they just need to know they will have sponsors and make money from them. Sponsor need to know that people will watch.

 

[hungryninja]

On the other hand...

USAT statement on LaJust:
http://usa-taekwondo.us/news/2011/05/18/usat-statement-on-lajust/42381

 

[terryl965]

What did you expect Davie boy to say, USAT took all that up front money of LaJust. Nobody really expected him to say yea the system has flaws and we are going to look into other avenues did yea. It will be fun to watch in what direction the power house countrys do for there system and see how long it will take us to adapt to everything.

 

[RobinTKD]

.I know that in Europe they do get air time but not here.

Not in England we dont

 

[StudentCarl]

... said David Askinas, USA Taekwondo CEO. “LaJust performed flawlessly at the recent world championships in Korea...”

The emperor is SURE that he is wearing fine clothes.

 

[ATC]

Not in England we dont

So you guys don't get the eurosports network. That is where I have watched (online stream from someone) a great many TKD broadcasts. And it was in english the feeds I watched with, I took to be British, comintators.

 

[puunui]

ROFLOL - There was no vote. David told us he made the deal in August 2009. As CEO he makes deals and the board doesn't vote. He signs contracts and there is no discussion until afterwards. Want to know how many times we asked to see the coaches' contracts over the years and were told - next meeting and then the contracts were never produced. We had few details other than the more people we required to use LaJust gear, the more they paid upfront. Mark Biviano and I demanded to see the contract. We were handed copies at the December 2009 meeting where it was discussed and then copies taken back before you really had a chance to study it. Since the few observers had left, they missed that part. Nothing was voted upon. Collins said it was all good. When I brought up the possibility of losing competitors over the expense I was told it could be canceled and not to worry about it. Discussions do not make the minutes of the meetings.

Discussions used to make the USTU minutes. Sounds like another violation of the USAT bylaws. My understanding was that CEO has control over day to day operations, and the Board has control over policy matters. Signing a contract with LaJust or any electronic scoring system before it is announced which one is selected for the Olympic Games sounds like an abuse of authority, or at the very least a poor decision, whoever made the call. You and other directors are in the best position to inform the USOC regarding this matter. I am sure they are very interested in a CEO who overstepped his authority which may cost the US medals at the London Games.

The issue as someone else already mentioned is that you have to adjust your game to the system's quirks - like the kicks to the back which don't count w/LaJust. But didn't you hear? It is all the team's fault they didn't medal.

Yeah, I know. ATC wrote a bunch of posts about that. Kicks to the backside don't score on the LaJust, but then again roundhouse kicks in general don't score, so it isn't surprising, given that most back side shots are roundhouse kicks.

 

[puunui]

I truly understand all the concerns related to the different systems but can someone explain why any of it would matter if fighters were doing clean powerful penentrating techniques with hands and feet and the oponent is knocked down and cannot continue or bows out. the machine does not matter but it has evolved to point fighting not fighting.

Even back in the day, there were very few knockouts or discontinuation of matches. If you tried to do that in today's matches, stand "toe to toe" and try to knock the other person out, the probable result would be you would get knocked out.

Bruce once said mine in the art of fighting with out fighting?

He made the comment to the Australian competitor on the boat who was abusing the deck hands in the movie Enter the Dragon. The Australian guy was trying to punk Bruce Lee, so Bruce Lee said my style is the art of fighting without fighting. The australian guy wanted to see, so Bruce suggested they go to "that island" in a small boat which was attached to the larger boat they were riding. So the Australian guy gets in the boat and Bruce Lee unhooks the boat and gives the line to the deck hands who were getting abused. So that was what he was talking about, beating the guy without fighting, using his mind, not point fighting like how you perceive today's competition Taekwondo.

Does it not bother any of you that no major network will give good time to TKD Olympics but will give major time to people swishing a broom in front of a pot on the ice?? Its Boring Boring Boring the anouncers have to be high or have a stuter to even sound excited or have something to report????????

Actually no, it doesn't bother me. When I watch matches I can see the hard work (or lack thereof) in the competitors. It is not boring and if you think it is, then you probably do not have a good grasp of modern taekwondo training methods, or strategy. There is all kinds of stuff going on during a match, even when the competitors are not kicking each other.

 

[puunui]

The whole athlete selection process will be conducted using LaJust equipment because the events in the process are USAT sanctioned. If there's a difference between systems, then that invalidates the process and the people selected to that extent. It doesn't mean they are or are not capable of winning medals in London; it's just not a valid predictor...which is the point of the process.

I am thinking/hoping that the US would qualify at least, hopefully, two spots at the World Qualifier, Steven and Diana's spots. If so, then they automatically make team and there would be no selection process for those divisions.

But the others, I would agree, you have to adjust your game to LaJust for Olympic trials, then readjust your game for the actual event, the Olympics. Winning medals is hard enough without having to make all these adjustments.

We never should have signed the contract with LaJust, or if we did, I would make sure there would be a clause in there that would release us from using LaJust for any Olympic team trial track events if another system, such as Daedo, is selected. If LaJust balked at that, I would tell them, you are so sure that LaJust will be selected, then you are not losing anything by agreeing to it, and I would get the USOC involved and say that the USOC will not "approve" of the contract without that clause, due to possible negative consequences in the medal count by selecting an Olympic team using a scoring system different from the official one. That may be an acceptable compromise in taking the LaJust money vs. thinking about our athletes.

But that's just me.