Boy Scouts, Politics and Religion Discussion

[arnisador]

Here's an interesting question that I've never seen addressed by any of the myriad folks that want BSA to change their policy. How would you handle camping?

Currently, camps are required to maintain separate men's and women's bathrooms, or have signage that can be prominently displayed so that members of the opposite sex do not have to worry about running into each other there. They are also required to have separate bathing facilities for men and women. So, do you now make three signs? Do you mark off a separate time for gays to use the shower facilities, or do you force every camp to build another set of showers?

Just some things that flitted through my head.

Gays go to public school and shower in the locker rooms there. They serve in the military--including in the field. This just isn't an issue.

 

[Tez3]

Here's an interesting question that I've never seen addressed by any of the myriad folks that want BSA to change their policy. How would you handle camping?

Currently, camps are required to maintain separate men's and women's bathrooms, or have signage that can be prominently displayed so that members of the opposite sex do not have to worry about running into each other there. They are also required to have separate bathing facilities for men and women. So, do you now make three signs? Do you mark off a separate time for gays to use the shower facilities, or do you force every camp to build another set of showers?

Just some things that flitted through my head.

Your camps must be very posh! here camping is in tents in fields, proper camping. There's no bathrooms or showers. If you lay all the comforts of home on for the scouts surely it's cheating them of the experience of looking after themselves? The Cubs here, the young ones go camping as well, in tents.

 

[Blindside]

Your camps must be very posh! here camping is in tents in fields, proper camping. There's no bathrooms or showers. If you lay all the comforts of home on for the scouts surely it's cheating them of the experience of looking after themselves? The Cubs here, the young ones go camping as well, in tents.

I think there is a distinction between BSA "Camps" and camping. The BSA Camps in are typically summer use facilities that run through hundreds of scouts each week. The camping facilities in my area ranged from basic open air cabin (three walls, roof, fireplace, bunkbeds) to small wall tents to barracks type sleeping facilities that held about 10. They did not have electricity. The Camps did have running water for toilets and showers. These Camps typically featured full time staff that taught and oversaw various activities to train in for the week like canoeing, archery, marksmanship, and various other merit badges.

This is to differentiate it from "camping" which in my troop at least was usually a fairly rigorous and primitive affair. Where you pretty much just had the gear you packed in or the shelter that you could build (like igloos and snow caves in the case of our winter camping.)

 

[Tez3]

Scouting then in America seems to be a long way from B-P's original vision in many things and seems to have almost gone in the polar opposite of everything he was trying to achieve.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Scouting then in America seems to be a long way from B-P's original vision in many things and seems to have almost gone in the polar opposite of everything he was trying to achieve.

Pretty much.

When I was in it seems like it was more fun and closer to the original intent, while most of what I hear as of late stinks of political correctness and bs.

 

[Blindside]

Scouting then in America seems to be a long way from B-P's original vision in many things and seems to have almost gone in the polar opposite of everything he was trying to achieve.

Huh, looks like the UK has the exact same thing, except if anythng with far more amenities.
http://www.scoutactivitycentres.org.uk/whatWeDo/default.asp

Our troop went to our local BSA Camp for one week during the summer. During that same summer we also programmed two camping trips, one 50 miler and one 20 miler, both under typical primitive camping conditions. I don't see how having these permanently established facilities somehow detracts from Baden-Powell's vision, not everything has to be a truly primitive situation and the week at the Camp allows a focus on certain activities that individual troops may not have either the skills or facilities to conduct. In particular I am thinking of the merit badges of marksmanship (typically done with .22 rifles and .50 caliber blackpowder) and archery. But is just as easily said for canoing or sailing.

 

[Tez3]

Huh, looks like the UK has the exact same thing, except if anythng with far more amenities.
http://www.scoutactivitycentres.org.uk/whatWeDo/default.asp

Our troop went to our local BSA Camp for one week during the summer. During that same summer we also programmed two camping trips, one 50 miler and one 20 miler, both under typical primitive camping conditions. I don't see how having these permanently established facilities somehow detracts from Baden-Powell's vision, not everything has to be a truly primitive situation and the week at the Camp allows a focus on certain activities that individual troops may not have either the skills or facilities to conduct. In particular I am thinking of the merit badges of marksmanship (typically done with .22 rifles and .50 caliber blackpowder) and archery. But is just as easily said for canoing or sailing.

That's an activity centre not a camping centre where Scouts camp thats down in the coutnryside. There's a big difference.
It's not that these activity centres detract from B-Ps vision but when this cossetting is all that Scouting is perceived as it seems a very long way from the self suffiency ideals he promoted. Going to learn how to do activities is different from the normal camping scouts do.

 

[WC_lun]

Either way, who is closer to the base dream in thier camping is kind of beside the point, is it not?

 

[Blindside]

That's an activity centre not a camping centre where Scouts camp thats down in the coutnryside. There's a big difference.
It's not that these activity centres detract from B-Ps vision but when this cossetting is all that Scouting is perceived as it seems a very long way from the self suffiency ideals he promoted. Going to learn how to do activities is different from the normal camping scouts do.

Perhaps this discussion is because of a terminology issue. We don't have "camping centres," we went out to our National Forests and National Parks to do our camping/hiking etc. Consider the BSA Camps more like an activity center.

 

[shesulsa]

I think there is a distinction between BSA "Camps" and camping. The BSA Camps in are typically summer use facilities that run through hundreds of scouts each week. The camping facilities in my area ranged from basic open air cabin (three walls, roof, fireplace, bunkbeds) to small wall tents to barracks type sleeping facilities that held about 10. They did not have electricity. The Camps did have running water for toilets and showers. These Camps typically featured full time staff that taught and oversaw various activities to train in for the week like canoeing, archery, marksmanship, and various other merit badges.

This is to differentiate it from "camping" which in my troop at least was usually a fairly rigorous and primitive affair. Where you pretty much just had the gear you packed in or the shelter that you could build (like igloos and snow caves in the case of our winter camping.)

Jared's troop does both. The availability of the BS camp means BSA has priority and a guaranteed spot where they have dedicated rifle and black powder ranges, archery ranges and throwing ranges. Renting commercial ranges costs much more than a maintenance fee for the camp. There are also various levels of camping ... from bunks in the lodge to yurts and platform tents, Adirondacks and tents.

Jared's troop takes willing boys up to open-air camp on the face of Mt. Saint Helens. J's eligible for snow camp now that he's 14. Build a snow cave... and sleep in it.

 

[Blindside]

Jared's troop takes willing boys up to open-air camp on the face of Mt. Saint Helens. J's eligible for snow camp now that he's 14. Build a snow cave... and sleep in it.

We did our snow camping on Mount Rainier, I was a snow cave convert after two years of spending all morning making igloos. You could cut a snow cave in about a half hour, you just had to deal with the claustrophobia of having only three feet of headroom and knowing that if it ever collapsed, you were simply dead with about 6-10 feet of snow falling on you.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Perhaps this discussion is because of a terminology issue. We don't have "camping centres," we went out to our National Forests and National Parks to do our camping/hiking etc. Consider the BSA Camps more like an activity center.

This is probably the most accurate way to describe it. Troops go there for one week (for the most part) and have fun, learn skills and just do activities/earn merit badges in a semi-outdoors environment. much different than camping. In normal camping, we still learn skills 'on the job' but without any of those luxuries (except bathrooms/outhouse depending on where you're going) and that's about it. MUCH different then the "camps" they're referring to.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Pretty much.

When I was in it seems like it was more fun and closer to the original intent, while most of what I hear as of late stinks of political correctness and bs.

As I've said many times in these forums, the actual troops don't stink of pc and bs. That's what you see from the outside, and in the administration, but as far as the scouts go, most of them never even hear about the 'pc' issues. For them, it's probably just as fun and close to the original intent as it was for you. And not just assuming that on nothing...some of the scout leaders in my troop, or former scouts in my church were in scouts when they were young, and what they say is very similar to what i experienced as well. also, the scoutmasters see it as basically the same experience that they went through.

 

[Blindside]

As I've said many times in these forums, the actual troops don't stink of pc and bs. That's what you see from the outside, and in the administration, but as far as the scouts go, most of them never even hear about the 'pc' issues. For them, it's probably just as fun and close to the original intent as it was for you. And not just assuming that on nothing...some of the scout leaders in my troop, or former scouts in my church were in scouts when they were young, and what they say is very similar to what i experienced as well. also, the scoutmasters see it as basically the same experience that they went through.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the current crop of scouts were just as much of little terrorist pyromaniacs as we were.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the current crop of scouts were just as much of little terrorist pyromaniacs as we were.

hehehe yup...wait i mean...why would you say such a thing? *gasps in shock* they are all adorable little angels :angel:

 

[pgsmith]

You do realize that there are already gays in the BSA? Just like there are already gays in the military already serving. Allowing gays to do so openly just changes if they are doing so...well openly. Signs won't need to be changed, nor will bathrroms. Just like they have not needed to be changed in the military, thousands of thousands of employers, or public facilities. I don't think anyone has to worry about going to take a shower or a piss and being ogled by the gays. Otherwise, you'd already know who was gay by who those ogling you every day when you did those things. They don't do it now, so I don't think it is something you will have to worry about.

I disagree completely. I have it on good authority (a couple of gay men that happen to be very close to me) that they very much do notice other men in the showers. One told me that he tried to make sure there are no other men occupying the shower because it is very distracting trying not to look, and it becomes very obvious if he thinks about it too much. What you are trying to tell me is that you would have no problem with using an open shower with several women at the same time and you wouldn't be looking? Some societies do that, ours does not.

You have misunderstood the question that I've posed. I knew gays when I was in the military. I knew gays when I was a leader in the Boy Scouts. I don't have a problem with it. However, if you make an official policy, you have to take that into account. Why do you think that there are separate facilities for men and women? If a gay man is undergoing sex change therapy, when is he required to start using the other facilities and why? These are the questions that I've not heard anyone address.

Gays go to public school and shower in the locker rooms there. They serve in the military--including in the field. This just isn't an issue

It isn't an issue in the military because there is no set policy. It isn't an issue in the schools because they require shorts or trunks in the shower unless the school has individual shower facilities.

 

[WC_lun]

I think you miss my point. Gays are already using the rest room with you and taking showers with you if you are doing it in a public shower. As far as taking a shower with a bunch of women, I can't say I wouldn't look, but I can say with a certainty I would not do anything else. That's because I'm an adult, comfortable with my sexuality, and respect other people, much like 99% of gay people I know. Seems like it isn't gay people you are thinking about, but your own hang ups.

In the off chance you do happen to be hit on by some naked gay guy, here's what you say, "No thanks man. I'm straight." Works like a charm. Of course that takes for granted you are someone they would want to hit on just by looking at you.

Your road block to gays being able to be gay openly is it would cost money in building more bathrooms. It just isn't valid.

 

[pgsmith]

I think you miss my point. Gays are already using the rest room with you and taking showers with you if you are doing it in a public shower. As far as taking a shower with a bunch of women, I can't say I wouldn't look, but I can say with a certainty I would not do anything else. That's because I'm an adult, comfortable with my sexuality, and respect other people, much like 99% of gay people I know. Seems like it isn't gay people you are thinking about, but your own hang ups.

In the off chance you do happen to be hit on by some naked gay guy, here's what you say, "No thanks man. I'm straight." Works like a charm. Of course that takes for granted you are someone they would want to hit on just by looking at you.

Your road block to gays being able to be gay openly is it would cost money in building more bathrooms. It just isn't valid.

So, do you actually read other posts, or do you just assume you understand what others are saying? I have no hang ups with gays. My son is gay, a very good friend of mine is gay, the best man at my first wedding was gay. However, the fact is that our society does have lots of hangups, and not just with gay men. Neither you nor I are representative of the majority of US society. Society as a whole will need to address these issues. You may be perfectly comfortable showering in a room fuill of women, but our society isn't.

To say "people should do this" without looking at the whole picture is sticking your head in the sand and hoping for the best. I was hoping to provoke some interesting conversation, but it seems that I was asking for too much actual thought rather than typical visceral reaction.

Such is life ...

 

[WC_lun]

Everybody is using the restroom with gays. Everyone taking a public shower is taking one with gays. Everyone is living thier lives in contact with gays. People need to realize it and get over it. The difference is some expect gays to hide who they are and come up with excuses why this should be so, like bathrooms. It is nonsense, and I don't care if YOU are gay, it is still nonsense.