Boy Scouts, Politics and Religion Discussion

[Makalakumu]

In the end, wouldn't it only matter if the Scoutmaster and the Troop goes along with all of the restrictions? Why couldn't a troop have open atheists and homosexuals as members and simply submit the paperwork as they advanced? I don't understand how this is an issue unless the hatred is rolling down hill like a ball of ****.

I've been an atheist since I was 14 and open about it. I was a scout and assistant scoutmaster and it never was an issue. It would seem that there has to be a certain level of complicity at the grassroots level for this to matter at all.

 

[Tez3]

In the end, wouldn't it only matter if the Scoutmaster and the Troop goes along with all of the restrictions? Why couldn't a troop have open atheists and homosexuals as members and simply submit the paperwork as they advanced? I don't understand how this is an issue unless the hatred is rolling down hill like a ball of ****.

I've been an atheist since I was 14 and open about it. I was a scout and assistant scoutmaster and it never was an issue. It would seem that there has to be a certain level of complicity at the grassroots level for this to matter at all.

Is the up coming election stirring things up or has it always been like this?

 

[Makalakumu]

Is the up coming election stirring things up or has it always been like this?

I'm not sure. It could be stirring up as a distraction, but then again some parts of the US would go along with discrimination no matter who was running for office. For example, in Central Minnesota, where my troop was based, I could see homosexuality as being a huge issue. That said, I don't think it needs to be. I think that individual troops could ignore all of that if they wished.

 

[elder999]

Is the up coming election stirring things up or has it always been like this?

It's got nothing to do with the election. It's been going on for a while-since at least 200, and possibly (probably) earlier. From my 2006 post:

Philadelphia, June 2003-Gregory Lattera, a Boy Scout and camp counselor for the previous seven yeas, was informed that he is banned from scouting because he admitted publicly that he is gay. Upon reading the letter, Lattera said, "It broke my heart.”

Port Orchard, Washington, June, 2002-Eagle Scout Darrell Lambert, who had provided more than 1,000 hours of community service as a Scout, was informed by the regional Boy Scouts of America executive that he had one week “to declare his belief in a supreme being” or quit the scouts.

Washington, D.C., June 2000-The U.S. Supreme court, in a 5-to-4 vote, backed the BSA’s right to exclude homosexuals. Justice William Rehnquist explained that gays violate the Scout directive to be “clean” and “morally straight.”

 

[Carol]

Arni, Really? Stay in the closet? I can tell you that my 11 and 13 year old wouldn't know what the **** that means. And the Boy Scouts shouldn't care. Should be a non issue. I think you are thinking these kids are older...
I'm not sure where you are living, but we're just not seeing this gay and religious bashing where we are.

It should indeed be a non-issue. Part of the controversy is that these are more mature subjects, and many parents look to activities such as scouting as a way to expand their horizons without throwing them headlong in to the adult world and its darker aspects (such as sexual politics)

Whatever your kids do understand about orientation and religion...chances are that understanding is going to expand and grow when they move towards a relationship of their own and make decisions on their own. Perhaps it will not be something they fully understand until they are out on their own doing whatever it is they do.

As Georgia mentioned in an earlier post, when the BSA does change, they will need leaders like her own 13 year old, to show that "morally straight" is something that transcends religion and orientation. It could very well mean that effective change will be more from within. That sort of thing will require standout individuals with the qualities that scouting strives to develop.

 

[shesulsa]

********Admin Note********
This thread was copied from The Great Outdoors for continuity. This thread is for the discussion of the various political, religious and social equality issues regarding the Boy Scouts. Other posts will have been moved wholesale.
jks9199
Asst. Administrator
*************************

I did the girl scout thing with my daughter and now my soon-to-be-14 year old son is finding himself in boy scouts. He *LOVES* the outdoorsmanship and survival tactics he is learning and developing. He *LOVES* to hike, as well and is a natural leader. His troop leaders usually include him in youth leadership groups where they usually only take 14 years & older or first class scouts when he is neither.

My husband is "involved" as an assistant scoutmaster. I may get involved as well. He is very interested in Venturing which really excites me.

We have come up against some friends who can't believe we continue in the organization with their anti-gay stance, though.

Fortunately, we have not had any leaders or parents be vocal about these types of sentiments in our pack.

Jared didn't think he would enjoy scouting but he is really finding himself and finding something that helps him self-nurture and I'm SO grateful. I'm sure he will become Eagle but even if he doesn't, I'm happy that this experience is doing so very much for him elsewise and that he's having fun and making friends.

 

[Tez3]

Our Scouts (they dropped the 'boy' bit a long time ago) and Guides which are the parent bodies of all other scouting movements, are non political, practice tolerance whatever your religion and sexuality and are a huge influence on the kids who join. Scouts are for boys and girls, Guides have stayed single sex. These organisations aren't just for the white middle class they also work into deprived areas bring activities to inner city kids.

http://scouts.org.uk/whatwedo
http://www.girlguiding.org.uk/about_us.aspx

I was a Brownies and a Guide and have also been a Cub and a Brownie leader. I'd recommend either of these to anyone child or adult.

The organisations here have a history of doing vital work for the country which was one of the founders Baden Powell's main ideas, that young people would be useful.
http://lesliesguidinghistory.webs.com/guidesatwar.htm

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I enjoyed my time in scouting, even allowing for that 1 winter camp out where all my clothes and sleeping bag ended up in the river. And that time I lost knife privilages for going spear fishing in the pool. And that time I couldn't figure out owatagoofiam. Because the bug juice was great, the outdoors fun, and being able to swim, and shoot and camp was a ton of fun. It's a damn shame it's so political and exclusive these days.

I can't help but wonder though, if a political discussion was the intent here, or if it was to see who else was involved and talk about the fun and positive parts of Scouting. The political parts probably are better suited for a Study discussion.

 

[jks9199]

Posts regarding politics, religion and social equality have been split to a new thread in The Study. Please continue to keep the discussion civil.

jks9199
Asst Administrator

 

[arnisador]

It sounds like a lot of people don't think the homophobic policy reflects what the BSA wants to stand for and that it's a matter of money--where they get their funding and other forms of support. Is there hope of that changing? Of finding another source of funding?

 

[WC_lun]

The Scouts promote many positive things, such as self reliance, knowledge of nature, working with others, etc. There are very good reasons many boys and young men enjoy the Scounts. It is in no way an evil organisation. My problem is the message sent to these young men. A boy grows up in the Scouts, progressing as any other young man, until the natural sexual maturation and this same young man discovers he is gay. Then the sexual leaning of the young man starts taking presidence to those things the Scouts have taught.

Can you imagine if your son has enjoyed the Scouts for his entire life, then told he cannot continue his progression because he is gay, not dependant upon his skills? This does and has happened. Life is full of pain, but this particular heartache is caused by the orgisational prejudice of the group he loved. You would think that the Scouts caring of these young men would not be relegated to thier sexual prefernce as they mature, but rather thier hearts and skills.

 

[pgsmith]

It sounds like a lot of people don't think the homophobic policy reflects what the BSA wants to stand for and that it's a matter of money--where they get their funding and other forms of support. Is there hope of that changing? Of finding another source of funding?

I'm afraid not. At the top levels, the BSA is just like any other large US corporation. The CEO is extremely overpaid, as are all the senior executives. They are in it for themselves, not the public. As long as they continue to get their large pay and benefits, nothing will change. It's the same sort of thing that spawned the Occupy movement. Those of us within the system really have no control over it. So, my advice is to continue to promote Scouting for all the good things is does. It's one of the few places still available to young people today that teaches them how to make proper decisions, and how to deal with things when it doesn't work out the way you expected. There will be small ways to try and change things for the better but, in my opinion, shutting the whole thing down would be much worse than maintaining the status quo, as flawed as it is.

 

[Tez3]

Why is it a corporation? surely like in other countries it should be a charity? Scouting isn't a business.

 

[WC_lun]

It is and it isn't Tez. It is a charity, but it is also a corporation to protect its' assets. Those at the top reap huge amounts of money to run the corporation. This is sad when at the same time you see Scouting camps closed for lack of funding.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

And even if it was full charity, it needs money to run, electric bills, food, camp staff (even if it were a charity-based organization, I'm assuming they would still need to hire the cooks, health staff, etc.) materials for books/merit badges/anything else, etc. And it's a big organization, so they need a lot of money for each thing, and need funding from somewhere. In other countries it might be able to be completely a charity, but here, even if it were non-profit, people would never donate enough materials/time to make funding unnecessary. Even for something as simple as my Eagle project, i wasn't able to get enough donations to not need fundraising.

 

[pgsmith]

Why is it a corporation? surely like in other countries it should be a charity? Scouting isn't a business.

It is a charity. However, almost all charities today are large corporations. The executives in charge of those charities are paid a salary, usually a very large one. Executives of large charities are generally paid between 25% and 35% of the charity's total expenses. It is only volunteers at the lower levels.

 

[Tez3]

Each Scout Group here is a separate charity and responsible for fund rasing for it's own needs, they also fund raise to give Headquarters a capitation fee. Cubs, Scouts, Guides etc pay subs every week usually about 50 pence up to a pound to pay for badges and equipment. They save up weekly usually to go on camp.
Camp staff? Cooks? That surprises me because in Scouting and Guiding it's self suffiency,there's no staff as most camps are in fields! Leaders are volunteers, in fact the majority of people in Scouting and Guiding are volunteers. Even the Chief Scout is a volunteer. There's very few paid people, just the chief executive office and a few shop staff.
There are County Scout camp sites but these are funded by fund raising, grants and donations, again manned by volunteers.
Scouting has some very high profile supporters here, the Queen was a Guide so donations are generous. fund raising is part and parcel of Scouting and Guiding either for themselves or for other projects.

 

[pgsmith]

Each Scout Group here is a separate charity and responsible for fund rasing for it's own needs, they also fund raise to give Headquarters a capitation fee.

Your Scouting Chief Executive is paid quite a bit less than ours, but it is still somewhere in the neighborhood of 150,000 pounds/year. Your entire executive council seems to be focused a lot more on the good of the youth than ours is though.

 

[Tez3]

Your Scouting Chief Executive is paid quite a bit less than ours, but it is still somewhere in the neighborhood of 150,000 pounds/year. Your entire executive council seems to be focused a lot more on the good of the youth than ours is though.

Not quite sure where you got that figure as the job has just recently been advertised, closing date at the beginning of October and the salary is described as 'competitive'
The main part of the job is fund raising and applying for grants etc, he/she will bring in far more than they cost. Apart from being a good admin person a commitment to Scouting is a huge part of the job.


On the subject of gay Scouts, the outgoing Chief Executive is responsible for this http://www.petertatchell.net/intern...ts-condemn-uganda-anti-homosexuality-bill.htm

"Full statement by the Scout Association UK

UGANDA

Since the mid-1990s, The Scout Association has been clear and unequivocal in our equal opportunities policy and practice especially regarding sexual orientation, as befitting our role in contemporary society.

We are recently aware that the Ugandan Parliament has received a Bill that calls for the death sentence for repeat practicing of homosexuality. This Bill is presented by a Ugandan MP (David Bahati) who is also currently the National Chairman of the Uganda Scout Association. In terms of our own policies and understandings, we find the Bill not only discriminatory and contrary to the sanctity of life, but also completely incompatible with our interpretation of the values of our worldwide Scouting Movement.

We have already drawn our grave concerns on this to the attention of the Secretary General of the World Organisation of the Scout Movement (WOSM), and we are subsequently aware that the issues are now subject both to WOSM’s direct engagement with the Chief Scout of Uganda (Mrs Maggie Kigozi) and to ongoing global consideration by members of the World Scout Committee.

We hope that the bilateral and very positive educational and solidarity projects that have been fostered for many years between Scout Groups in the UK and Scout Groups in Uganda on such matters as health and community development will not be prejudiced or compromised by this situation; we await the formal and public response from the Scout Association of Uganda and from WOSM, whereupon we will review our position. "

Derek Twine Chief Executive
07889 130 812 (from within the UK) and +44 (0) 7889 130 812 (from overseas). Or 020 8433 7107 or 7261 (from within the UK)

 

[arnisador]

A story from 2010:

[h=1]Boy Scouts tell gay leader to take a hike[/h]

Jon Langbert of Dallas, Texas, who is openly gay, told HLN's "Prime News" that he had been wearing the shirt the Scouts gave him last year with pride. The shirt identified him as a member of the leadership team that was selling popcorn for a Scout fundraiser.


But that all changed last week. "Everything was running along smoothly until some of the dads complained," he said. When the complaints rose to a higher level of the Scout leadership, he was asked to stop wearing the shirt and give up his leadership role, he said.


"It made me feel terrible to think about the devastating effect it would have on my son, to see his father stripped of his leadership role," Langbert told CNN affiliate WFAA-TV in Dallas-Fort Worth. "It brought tears to my eyes."


A Scout Circle Ten Council official said Langbert was never registered as a leader in the first place.


"We do have a policy that avowed gays and atheists are not allowed to be a registered leader or member of Boy Scouts of America," said Pat Currie, Scout executive with the Circle Ten Council. "It's a longstanding policy."


In a telephone interview, Boy Scouts of America director of public relations Deron Smith told CNN that the discussion has no place in Scouting.


"We focus on our mission, and our mission is to take young people and prepare them for an exceptional adulthood," he said. "That's it. That's why our policy is the way it is. Our volunteer leadership has elected to keep that policy in place."

Teaching homophobic discrimination doesn't seem like a great way to prepare young people for the 21st century.