bodybuilding and marshal arts

[kuniggety]

so your just imposing your own defintion on preceding's. At least you are conceeding that body builder may have some strengh

why don't you believe pull ups will grow muscle? I'm lifting 200 lbs ten times( at the moment) thats a reasonable weight and I'm do muscle growth level reps, and my muscles are notably growing

I'm not imposing my definition on anything. It's the accepted community definition. Sure you're free to come up with whatever definitions you want for things but realize you're not speaking the same language as anyone else then.

I didn't say pull ups won't grow muscle. I said the opposite. You're doing functional strength training which will in turn help build defined muscles. You just won't get swole off of pull ups though... no matter how many you do. I personally think pull ups are a fantastic exercise and do them regularly myself.

 

[jobo]

I'm not imposing my definition on anything. It's the accepted community definition. Sure you're free to come up with whatever definitions you want for things but realize you're not speaking the same language as anyone else then.

I didn't say pull ups won't grow muscle. I said the opposite. You're doing functional strength training which will in turn help build defined muscles. You just won't get swole off of pull ups though... no matter how many you do. I personally think pull ups are a fantastic exercise and do them regularly myself.

but based on previous posts that defintion is based on ignorance of the science involved, I'm not sure what swole is, but Il guess it means big, I hadn't said I want to be Very big, just that I'm building my muscles up to replace those I've lost through the aging process. I take it your defintion of body building must include an assumption that all body builders want to he swole, rather than just well, a bit muscly

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As others have pointed out, bodybuilding is a sport concerned with sculpting the body's appearance for a certain aesthetic. It usually produces some improvements to strength, but that is a secondary effect. If you want to see some serious functional strength, look at strongman competitors, Olympic weightlifters, and powerlifters. If you want to see some serious pound-for-pound functional strength, look at wrestlers and rock climbers.

Strength is always helpful. Size is less so.

 

[Jenna]

When I was much younger, in the 80s, there were several bands that had a pretty distinctive sound. I don't know if they were actually from Manchester. The Smiths, and then Morrissey went solo, Joy Division and New Order were considered 'New Wave' bands, along with ABC. After I went into the military in 1989, while in Germany, I stumbled on several more Manchester bands, like Charlatans UK, Blur, and The Stone Roses and 808 State (which I thought was American for a long time, because of the name).

Point is, none of them could speak English.

sshhh.. *whispering* not interrupting only.. Blur were London is all.. they had the whole tiff with Oasis (them being from Manchester) xo

 

[Steve]

sshhh.. *whispering* not interrupting only.. Blur were London is all.. they had the whole tiff with Oasis (them being from Manchester) xo

Wait. Manchester isn't the same as London? I thought it was like a suburb. I kid!!!! I didn't realize Blur were from London.

 

[Steve]

so your just imposing your own defintion on preceding's. At least you are conceeding that body builder may have some strengh

why don't you believe pull ups will grow muscle? I'm lifting 200 lbs ten times( at the moment) thats a reasonable weight and I'm do muscle growth level reps, and my muscles are notably growing

It's a pretty common definition in America, at least. I was really confused in the other thread, until I realized that when you say bodybuilding, you aren't referring to the sport.

 

[Danny T]

no that's not how muscles grow, tears are only the smallest pathway, there are perhaps half a dozen different ways that mucles grow, consult wikipedia for an in depth overview. The main ones seem to be the mtor pathway and metabolic stress. They both reply on the nervous system growing the muscles to meet the increased demand. That is it grows the muscle to be stronger. That's why muscle growth depends on progressive overload, what you could lift last month doesn't stress your body enough, so this month you have to lift more, ie your stronger. So last month i was lifting 200 lbs 10 times to failure. This month failure demands 220 x 10 ot 200 x 12That means I'm stronger than I was and my muscles are bigger .
I've just taken my dog in the park and done a few pull ups. First set to failure x ten, that's muscle growth number, second third and 4th set x5 that's strengh reps, sp I've come back wiyh bigger muscles and some what stronger

Hypertrophy causes muscles to get bigger not stronger. Body Builders use methods that cause muscle hypertrophy. Strength builders muscles are usually smaller than body builders yet are overall stronger. Why because the training Strength builders do though seemly the same as body builders use a method called Motor Unit Recruitment. This is done by using progressively heavier weight in 3-5 repetitions in 3-5 sets. Hypertrophy happens with lighter weight and longer duration of the muscle being used. 10-15 reps 8-10 sets. Here the muscle does get stronger to a point but not as strong as in motor unit recruitment training but does increase significantly in size.
Body Building focuses on building muscle size.
Strength Training focuses on building functional strength.
There is a difference.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

so your just imposing your own defintion on preceding's. At least you are conceeding that body builder may have some strengh

why don't you believe pull ups will grow muscle? I'm lifting 200 lbs ten times( at the moment) thats a reasonable weight and I'm do muscle growth level reps, and my muscles are notably growing

You're the one imposing your definition here. Everyone else is referring to bodybuilding when they say bodybuilding. What you're doing is the same as saying soccer when you mean running or kicking, then getting frustrated when other people assume you're referring to soccer

 

[KangTsai]

When I made that thread, I was actually asking how well being big served as a deterrent against attack.

 

[KangTsai]

It's rather curious. In the West people seem to be obsessed with getting big arm muscles and lots of upper body strength, whereas in the East (particularly in China) they focus more on flexibility and core strength. As a result a lot of western body builders have very well defined pecs and arms, and spindly legs, while the Chinese have more flexible bodies and thin, whip-like arms.

In terms of Martial Arts, these body styles correspond to the local Martial Arts. In the West the primary Martial Art is Boxing, relying more on upper body strength than anything else, while most Chinese Martial Arts require more leg strength and flexibility to get into the low stances, and fast whippy arm movements.

What? That's just... what? You're comparing a professional boxer, who do have massive thighs, by the way, and say, a Shaolin monk? Someone who trains almost exclusively opposite to bodybuilding? In any other context, this would be false.

 

[jobo]

Hypertrophy causes muscles to get bigger not stronger. Body Builders use methods that cause muscle hypertrophy. Strength builders muscles are usually smaller than body builders yet are overall stronger. Why because the training Strength builders do though seemly the same as body builders use a method called Motor Unit Recruitment. This is done by using progressively heavier weight in 3-5 repetitions in 3-5 sets. Hypertrophy happens with lighter weight and longer duration of the muscle being used. 10-15 reps 8-10 sets. Here the muscle does get stronger to a point but not as strong as in motor unit recruitment training but does increase significantly in size.
Body Building focuses on building muscle size.
Strength Training focuses on building functional strength.
There is a difference.

I'm not sure where to start with this, you seem to be claiming that all people who train strengh are stronger than all body builders, that isn't and cannot. Be true. Some. Body builder are lifting ridicules weights, they may not be as strong as an Olympic power lifter but they are stronger than 99.9 % of the population. Tell me how dead lifting 600 lbs isn't strong and functional

 

[jobo]

As others have pointed out, bodybuilding is a sport concerned with sculpting the body's appearance for a certain aesthetic. It usually produces some improvements to strength, but that is a secondary effect. If you want to see some serious functional strength, look at strongman competitors, Olympic weightlifters, and powerlifters. If you want to see some serious pound-for-pound functional strength, look at wrestlers and rock climbers.

Strength is always helpful. Size is less so.

this is the same daft argument as above, you are not I take it an Olympic. Class weight lifter. Therefore there seems a very good chance that any committed long term bodybuilder is considerably stronger than you are. Rock climbers' and cyclist go to quite a lot of trouble to supress muscle growth as they don't want the extra weight to carry. Extra weight in a fight is generaly seen as an advantage. They don't have weight division to protect middle weights from been beaten to a pulp by fly weights

 

[jobo]

You're the one imposing your definition here. Everyone else is referring to bodybuilding when they say bodybuilding. What you're doing is the same as saying soccer when you mean running or kicking, then getting frustrated when other people assume you're referring to soccer

a body builder is one who is building his body. That is self evidently true. Any requirements you add to that defintion are just you imposing a set of values on others.

 

[kuniggety]

I'm not sure where to start with this, you seem to be claiming that all people who train strengh are stronger than all body builders, that isn't and cannot. Be true. Some. Body builder are lifting ridicules weights, they may not be as strong as an Olympic power lifter but they are stronger than 99.9 % of the population. Tell me how dead lifting 600 lbs isn't strong and functional

He didn't say that at all. Like I said before in my posts, there is some transference in training for strength building some muscle and training for muscle size providing some strength. In true body building, the body builder would never deadlift 600 lbs, unless they're so huge that they're doing sets of 10+ reps of that weight. When you're doing low rep/high weight that's strength conditioning and not body building.

I feel like at this point you're just trolling us because I don't understand how you don't see the difference. You even claim to visit body building forums who make the same distinctions that we're talking about.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

a body builder is one who is building his body. That is self evidently true. Any requirements you add to that defintion are just you imposing a set of values on others.

You're ignoring that you are using the name of a sport to discuss something that is not a sport. Either way there's no real point continuing a debate on what words mean on a martial arts forum.

 

[jobo]

He didn't say that at all. Like I said before in my posts, there is some transference in training for strength building some muscle and training for muscle size providing some strength. In true body building, the body builder would never deadlift 600 lbs, unless they're so huge that they're doing sets of 10+ reps of that weight. When you're doing low rep/high weight that's strength conditioning and not body building.

I feel like at this point you're just trolling us because I don't understand how you don't see the difference. You even claim to visit body building forums who make the same distinctions that we're talking about.

he precisely said that strengh trainers were stronger than body builder. That was his main point. As even you admit that is not true. And yes there are body builders doing sets of ten of that weight and more. There seems to be an anti bb vide here for no logical reason than stereo typing and ignorance

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Therefore there seems a very good chance that any committed long term bodybuilder is considerably stronger than you are

Sure. Also lots of other people who are not bodybuilders are considerably stronger than me. Athletes from a wide variety of sports, guys who do a wide variety of different kinds of strength training, guys who do heavy manual labor for a living, the list goes on and on.

No one is disputing that serious bodybuilding training will build strength. What we're saying is that the strength increase is a by-product rather than the goal in that sport. If you are training for strength rather than appearance, it offers you less bang for the buck in terms of time and effort. If you were to take two individuals who are identical in terms of size, genetics, background, starting strength, work ethic, and so on, then put one of them in a workout regimen focused on body building competition and the other in a workout regimen focused on (for example) powerlifting competition, give them the same level of coaching, have them put in the same amount of weekly work -then after a couple of years you'll find that the powerlifter is significantly stronger than the bodybuilder. Of course, the bodybuilder will be much stronger than the equivalent guy who spent that same time learning to make origami.

 

[jobo]

You're ignoring that you are using the name of a sport to discuss something that is not a sport. Either way there's no real point continuing a debate on what words mean on a martial arts forum.

the sport as you call it is competative body building, thats much the same as suggesting I cant call my running, running because I dont complete at running. I run but don't compete I body build but don't compete

 

[jobo]

Sure. Also lots of other people who are not bodybuilders are considerably stronger than me. Athletes from a wide variety of sports, guys who do a wide variety of different kinds of strength training, guys who do heavy manual labor for a living, the list goes on and on.

No one is disputing that serious bodybuilding training will build strength. What we're saying is that the strength increase is a by-product rather than the goal in that sport. If you are training for strength rather than appearance, it offers you less bang for the buck in terms of time and effort. If you were to take two individuals who are identical in terms of size, genetics, background, starting strength, work ethic, and so on, then put one of them in a workout regimen focused on body building competition and the other in a workout regimen focused on (for example) powerlifting competition, give them the same level of coaching, have them put in the same amount of weekly work -then after a couple of years you'll find that the powerlifter is significantly stronger than the bodybuilder. Of course, the bodybuilder will be much stronger than the equivalent guy who spent that same time learning to make origami.

so, then if body building is a generaly heath giving pass time ,that increases the strengh of the person some times quite considerably, why is frowned upon by the bigots on here that start frothing at the mouth at it mention

 

[mograph]

If you were to take two individuals who are identical ... you'll find that the powerlifter is significantly stronger than the bodybuilder.

Would the bodybuilder have larger, better-defined muscles?