Body unification

[Kung Fu Wang]

The definition of body unification is your

- hand should coordinate with your foot.
- elbow should coordinate with your knee.
- shoulder should coordinate with your hip.

But when you stay in a horse stance and throw many punches without moving your low body, your punch will have nothing to coordinate with. If a form creator created such moves in the form, will that confuse his students big time?

Will you stand still, freeze your low body, and just punch with your arms?

 

[wab25]

The hips should be involved with the punch in horse stance.

(over exaggerated here... but so we don't miss it)

 

[gyoja]

The definition of body unification is your

- hand should coordinate with your foot.
- elbow should coordinate with your knee.
- shoulder should coordinate with your hip.

But when you stay in a horse stance and throw many punches without moving your low body, your punch will have nothing to coordinate with. If a form creator created such moves in the form, will that confuse his students big time?

Will you stand still, freeze your low body, and just punch with your arms?

We don’t do that in our forms, it is always combined with a movement.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The hips should be involved with the punch in horse stance.

(over exaggerated here... but so we don't miss it)

Agree! Even if your feet cannot move, at least you should move your knees and hips.

I do think "over exaggerated" is needed. Otherwise, if you only move your shoulders 1 inch and move your hips 1 inch, it can be difficult for beginner to develop that correct feeling. But if you move both your shoulders and hips 3 inches, you may be able to learn quickly.

IMO, a form creator should not create any punch that cannot be coordinated with the foot, if he thinks the "body unification" training is important.

 

[Gyakuto]

Rika uses short whip-like rotations of her pelvis to generate power. Nice…

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Rika uses short whip-like rotations of her pelvis to generate power. Nice…

I have always believed that during the highest-level MA training, you can only see the body movement (body method) and you don't see any arms movement (arms movement can be ignored).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you can train "step in and punch", why do you want to train "stand still and punch"?

In this clip, you can clearly see that his punch coordinated with his leading foot landing. It's so easy to train this kind of body coordination.

 

[isshinryuronin]

IMO, a form creator should not create any punch that cannot be coordinated with the foot

You can have a strong punch without stepping, although the required hip movement relies on the legs and ultimately the foot-ground contact.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You can have a strong punch without stepping,

The stepping is like to add the drum into the music. It helps you to coordinate your punch with your foot landing. IMO, all beginners have to go through that training stage.

It's like soldiers walk left and right. All soldiers have to go through that training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You can have a strong punch without stepping

Correct. I don't know what the big deal is about static punching. It's not a game killer.
Example of static punching in boxing

Example of Static punching in MMA. A few guys are in horse stance when they punch. s Start at @1:10

While the static punching is not your strongest punch. It is definitely not the weak punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

While the static punching is not your strongest punch. It is definitely not the weak punch.

It's the maximum reach and maximum power that people try to train.

 

[isshinryuronin]

It's the maximum reach and maximum power that people try to train.

This may be true for your style, TKD and others as that may be the strategic doctrine. It can be effective. Other strategies are based on close range relying on counters and off-line movement. Why chase an opponent when he will come to you? Not saying having a few long-range moves aren't helpful as a switch-up or in sport competition, but an effective combat system can be built around close-in strategies. As for power, knees, elbows, uppercuts and hooks I think we'd all agree can be devastating.

When one strategy comes against the other, IMO, it's easier (for an experienced fighter) to close the gap to get in short range than for a long-range guy to fight in close. Of course, there are exceptions based on an individual's specific skills and tactical mastery of distance. In my early years I was a long-range fighter, but I now favor getting close since I found most are inexperienced in close range fighting.

 

[wab25]

If you can train "step in and punch", why do you want to train "stand still and punch"?

So, I am not like you guys. I am not naturally talented at martial arts. Trying to learn step and punch, is a lot of things for the untalented newbie to work through. Especially if you add in defensive / clearing motions to it as well.

When I started Shotokan, I had already learned jab and straight right from boxing. But, in Shotokan, they wanted me start left foot forward, take a forward step with that left foot and throw the straight right. In the little bit of boxing I did, we stepped forward with jabs and sat down on the straight right.... if you could not reach without the step, throw another jab and step in closer. I could not, no matter how hard I tried, step forward with the left while throwing a straight right.

The only way I got passed this, was by breaking it down, looking at and training each piece individually, then slowly reassembling the pieces in the new order.

Punching in horse stance is a great way to simplify things. I take the feet, legs, movement and balance issues out of the equation. Now I can focus on hand positions, timing of the arm rotation, extension of the top two knuckles, shoulder movement, and hip movement.

This is actually a good way to have the student experience the correct hip movement. Have them punch in horse stance. Then ask them to punch harder and faster. When they first start punching, they never use their hips at all. (see the original video) When they start trying to punch harder and faster, their upper body will torque the hips.... the hip that is connected (or should be connected ) to the punch will move forward as it is pulled. Once the student feels that, you ask the student to start the punch with the hip doing that motion first, so that the hip throws the punch instead of the punch pulling the hip.

Once you have the upper body figured out... then you can add in the lower body. To be fair, in Shotokan, we did a lot of stance drills as well.... walking in the different stances, changing stances on each step..... These drills are taking the upper body out of the equation, in order to focus on the foot work.

In both of these cases, you need to put them back together. You also need to realize that they are supposed to be put back together, so as not to bring in bad habits.

It's the maximum reach and maximum power that people try to train.

Some of us need to work on how to do something first, before we can even begin to try maximizing it. The thing about martial arts systems is that many things are there for the experienced and talented martial artist to train and learn from. But, there are also many things in the art, that are included to help the untalented, awkward beginner learn the art. The good arts have levels.... so the beginner and master can do the same drills, at the same time.... each working on the parts that pertain to them.

As mentioned earlier.... training the longest range, highest power punch is great.... unless you are in a phone booth and don't have the space....

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In my early years I was a long-range fighter, but I now favor getting close since I found most are inexperienced in close range fighting.

Long range is for kick/punch. Close range is for lock/throw. My primary MA system is long fist that emphasize on "maximum reach".

One of my friends said, "If I keep moving back, none of your techniques will work on me." His comment had bothered me for many years. In the past, I believe one can use punch to set up throw. After my friend's comment, I believe to use punch to set up clinch, and use clinch to set up throw is more realistic.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In both of these cases, you need to put them back together. You also need to realize that they are supposed to be put back together, so as not to bring in bad habits.

My concern is whether the extra time that you have spent to "put back together without bring in bad habits" is worthwhile or not. I prefer to take the direct route and make it right on day one.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The good arts have levels.... so the beginner and master can do the same drills, at the same time.... each working on the parts that pertain to them.

This is an important observation. To use the example of carving a piece of wood, first is the chopping it into the general shape. Then the whittling into something recognizable and the carving of the fine features. Then the sanding, a couple layers of polishing, and final buffing.

The problem with many/most martial artists is that they think the sanding or polishing is the final step. This keeps them at a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt level, regardless of how high their certificate says they are, or years spent in the art.

"The good arts have levels" is a two-tiered statement, IMO. Most arts have expectations for each level and there basic and advanced techniques and forms. A black belt and green belt will (should) do a punch differently. These kinds of levels are designed into the art as I think you mean and can be somewhat defined for clarity.

But there is another, non-designed level that cannot be found in any curriculum or be taught. It is more abstract and unique for each individual. This level depends on continual searching, experimenting and discovering the subtle "feelings" one has when doing a technique that somehow makes it better. Even a skilled instructor will not be able to pinpoint it, only recognize it looks different.

.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One of my friends said, "If I keep moving back, none of your techniques will work on me." His comment had bothered me for many years. In the past, I believe one can use punch to set up throw. After my friend's comment, I believe to use punch to set up clinch, and use clinch to set up throw is more realistic.

This is something that doesn't get discussed very often ...

There is a reason why all combat sports have either penalties for stalling/running out of bounds or physical barriers like a ring/cage or both. If you have basic competence in defense and unlimited open space with no obstructions, and are starting out at normal sparring distance apart from a single attacker, you can retreat and defend almost indefinitely against even more skilled opponents. As long as there is nothing to get in my way or trip over, I can back up and avoid punches from a much more skilled boxer, takedowns from a much more skilled wrestler, or even cuts and thrusts from a more skilled fencer (assuming I have a sword of my own to defend with).

(This has limits. It's much more difficult if you are defending bare-handed against a weapon or are a much smaller person trying to avoid a bigger, faster, more athletic attacker.)

It's true that the attacker can run forward faster than a defender can run backwards, but they can't come forward with on-balance deceptive attack combinations that maintain their own defense faster than a reasonably competent defender can back up and avoid the attacks.

The only reason why I don't teach this as my primary self-defense tactic is that most predatory assaults (as opposed to consensual fights) start at close range in an environment chosen by the attacker to limit the ability of the victim to escape. Also, multi-attacker scenarios are typically intended to keep the victim from getting away. But I do make sure my students recognize when the opportunity to back up safely exists.

 

[Flying Crane]

This may be true for your style, TKD and others as that may be the strategic doctrine. It can be effective. Other strategies are based on close range relying on counters and off-line movement. Why chase an opponent when he will come to you? Not saying having a few long-range moves aren't helpful as a switch-up or in sport competition, but an effective combat system can be built around close-in strategies.

Advancing and charge-punching is not meant for chasing an enemy. If you are chasing him, you are making a mistake. It is meant for blasting through him and running over him.

Long-arm punching is just as effective at close range. The long-arm method is simply a training method used to develop the full-body unification. The exaggerated movement helps the student grasp that unification more easily. Once it is understood, it can be applied at close range, with short movements. A long-arm method is not in any way limited to a longer range.

 

[wab25]

My concern is whether the extra time that you have spent to "put back together without bring in bad habits" is worthwhile or not. I prefer to take the direct route and make it right on day one.

You must be more talented than I.... I could not take the direct route on day 1, or day 2 or day 10. I had to break it down. Luckily, someone smarter than me, had already done that, in the form of these drills. I now use these drills to study lots of different aspects of lots of different things.

What would you do with a student like me, who found the direct route too much to sort out on day one?

 

[gyoja]

You must be more talented than I.... I could not take the direct route on day 1, or day 2 or day 10. I had to break it down. Luckily, someone smarter than me, had already done that, in the form of these drills. I now use these drills to study lots of different aspects of lots of different things.

What would you do with a student like me, who found the direct route too much to sort out on day one?

In my experience, your situation is very common. I teach my students individual techniques, then combine those techniques with other movements. A few months later they are doing a hyung and I can always see their eyes light up. The individual techniques that they were building proficiency in had now transformed, little by little, into a more complex combination of techniques.