Body Shifting and the Crescent Step

[Tez3]

Chuden is the word for mid body for us, Jodan is higher and Gedan lower on the body. We also have nukite plus shuto and haito plus hiraken which I quite like using.

For knife hands we use a cat stance, for blocks mostly a back stance. We do have a short 'front' stance, either migishizentai or hidarishizentai, a stance often used in Aikido and Kendo. And we have a Sanchin stance! (Sanchin Dachi) as well as a couple of Seishan Dachi.
There's 13 kicks without the jumping ones, 15 blocks, 5 natural stances, 11 uneven stances, 6 even and 5 other stances. 15 'fist' strikes, 6 body movements such as junzuki and gyakuzuki. Sounds a lot on paper but every one just about is very useful. Gives me an edge over the MMA guys sometimes, especially the kicks and the backfist.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Chuden is the word for mid body for us, Jodan is higher and Gedan lower on the body. We also have nukite plus shuto and haito plus hiraken which I quite like using.

Same for us, but we use the words Jodan, Chuden, and Gedan mostly with reference to blocks. We do call our uppercut 'jodan oi tsuki' (lunge punch uppercut) and 'jodan geaku tsuki' (reverse uppercut).

For knife hands we use a cat stance, for blocks mostly a back stance. We do have a short 'front' stance, either migishizentai or hidarishizentai, a stance often used in Aikido and Kendo. And we have a Sanchin stance! (Sanchin Dachi) as well as a couple of Seishan Dachi.

We have no cat stance at all. Our stances are primarily seisan dachi, seunchin dachi, sanchin dachi, and naihanchi dachi. There are others, but those are the main ones.

There's 13 kicks without the jumping ones, 15 blocks, 5 natural stances, 11 uneven stances, 6 even and 5 other stances. 15 'fist' strikes, 6 body movements such as junzuki and gyakuzuki. Sounds a lot on paper but every one just about is very useful. Gives me an edge over the MMA guys sometimes, especially the kicks and the backfist.

We have 8 kicks, no jumping kicks except one double-kick used inside the Chinto kata. Blocks and punches are varied, I don't know how many there are of each. Hand strikes include the punch, the spear (nukite), the haito, the shuto, and palm (shotei). We also have a backfist, we call it 'uraken', and a hammer fist (tetsui). There are also some one-knuckle and two-knuckle punches, I believe, but I haven't seen those yet.

We curl our toes up when we kick, and we generally kick below the obi, and we use a chambered snapping motion when we kick. Some think we snap-kick and make a glancing blow, but we go for penetration; we just don't leave the leg hanging out there, just like we don't leave the fist out there on a punch. We kick with the instep, the ball of the foot (koshi), the heel (kakato) and in the dojo, we also kick with the shin, although that's not Isshin-Ryu, strictly speaking.

We also hit with the elbow and the knees. The elbow has two hitting surfaces we use, the empi and the hiji.

I haven't yet sparred with anyone from another discipline, but we have some karateka in the dojo who have been trained in other styles. We do train using methods that are not our own from time to time, such as the inner hook kick, which is not in Isshin-Ryu, but is bloody effective when done right (I lack the flexibility to do it right).

 

[Tez3]

Sounds all good! My complaint about TSD is it is lacking a great many of the techniques we both know, it seems to be a simplified (a childs version even) version of karate. There is no 'crescent step' as you call it at all, and far fewer techniques. I wish I had been able to stay with Wado with it's depth, I know TSd people will now all hate me but I can't help it. Plus TSD is claimed to have been going for a thousand years in Korea.

I like Wados ( and yours) versatility,TSD doesn't even seem to have an elbow attack ( according to the books I have and have been taught) even though it's in the patterns. I shouldn't moan I suppose about the style I do but it's frustrating. Luckily though we don't belong to any organisation now so I will teach all and any techniques that are useful and some of our students will go on to Wado and Shotokan schools in the future. It keeps me going on my Wado, my instructor has a good friend who is also a Wado 5th Dan who comes along every so often to keep me right. Our katas now have taken on a more Shotokan/Wado feel too. We haven't changed the moves just do them with more 'beef' you could call it I suppose.

My instructor is very fond of two knuckle punches, when he punches in fact he always has two knuckles higher, thats not just in the class, he uses them 'outside' lol. We kick with the shin too but that comes from Muay Thai rather than karate, in Wado we use all the kicking surfaces you mention. We don't snap our kicks, other than front snap kick lol we do them 'heavy' (and this is where I can't explain things well again), do you know heavy hands? If so it's like that, still fast but they come in heavy and stop on target for a couple of seconds then back. It feels like a mule kicked. I've heard it described as kinetic kicking but have no idea what it means lol. I do know it hurts... alot!

 

[dancingalone]

Sounds all good! My complaint about TSD is it is lacking a great many of the techniques we both know, it seems to be a simplified (a childs version even) version of karate. There is no 'crescent step' as you call it at all, and far fewer techniques.

TSD is Korean Shotokan karate, so it should have all the same techs Shotokan people use. It's a matter of practicing them, which granted many TSD schools neglect the hand strikes in favor of fanciful kicking. TSD does have a wider variety of kicks in its arsenal than most karate schools which may or may not be a plus.

I wish I had been able to stay with Wado with it's depth, I know TSd people will now all hate me but I can't help it. Plus TSD is claimed to have been going for a thousand years in Korea.

No Wado in your town?

I like Wados ( and yours) versatility,TSD doesn't even seem to have an elbow attack ( according to the books I have and have been taught) even though it's in the patterns.

TSD has elbows. It's right there in Pinan Yodan/Pyung Ahn Sa Dan. It's just a matter of what the instructor chooses to teach and practice.

I shouldn't moan I suppose about the style I do but it's frustrating. Luckily though we don't belong to any organisation now so I will teach all and any techniques that are useful and some of our students will go on to Wado and Shotokan schools in the future. It keeps me going on my Wado, my instructor has a good friend who is also a Wado 5th Dan who comes along every so often to keep me right. Our katas now have taken on a more Shotokan/Wado feel too. We haven't changed the moves just do them with more 'beef' you could call it I suppose.

Sounds like you are encountering some style drift and even fostering it directly. Not necessarily a bad thing, unless you have some organization standard to adhere to.

We don't snap our kicks, other than front snap kick lol we do them 'heavy' (and this is where I can't explain things well again), do you know heavy hands? If so it's like that, still fast but they come in heavy and stop on target for a couple of seconds then back. It feels like a mule kicked. I've heard it described as kinetic kicking but have no idea what it means lol. I do know it hurts... alot!

So you employ thrust kicks instead of snap kicks.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Sounds all good! My complaint about TSD is it is lacking a great many of the techniques we both know, it seems to be a simplified (a childs version even) version of karate. There is no 'crescent step' as you call it at all, and far fewer techniques. I wish I had been able to stay with Wado with it's depth, I know TSd people will now all hate me but I can't help it. Plus TSD is claimed to have been going for a thousand years in Korea.

I like Wados ( and yours) versatility,TSD doesn't even seem to have an elbow attack ( according to the books I have and have been taught) even though it's in the patterns. I shouldn't moan I suppose about the style I do but it's frustrating. Luckily though we don't belong to any organisation now so I will teach all and any techniques that are useful and some of our students will go on to Wado and Shotokan schools in the future. It keeps me going on my Wado, my instructor has a good friend who is also a Wado 5th Dan who comes along every so often to keep me right. Our katas now have taken on a more Shotokan/Wado feel too. We haven't changed the moves just do them with more 'beef' you could call it I suppose.

My instructor is very fond of two knuckle punches, when he punches in fact he always has two knuckles higher, thats not just in the class, he uses them 'outside' lol. We kick with the shin too but that comes from Muay Thai rather than karate, in Wado we use all the kicking surfaces you mention. We don't snap our kicks, other than front snap kick lol we do them 'heavy' (and this is where I can't explain things well again), do you know heavy hands? If so it's like that, still fast but they come in heavy and stop on target for a couple of seconds then back. It feels like a mule kicked. I've heard it described as kinetic kicking but have no idea what it means lol. I do know it hurts... alot!

The TKD guys we have in our class have speed, flexibility, and a lot of very fast high kicks; I have to say they're impressive. I honestly do not have the background or experience to say anything negative about TKD, TSD, etc.

I started training in Wado in Lakewood, Colorado back in the late 1980's, but I only did it for a couple months; didn't earn any belts. I don't recall any of it, unfortunately, except the cat stance (which we don't use) and the horse stance, which is similar to our seuchin dachi, but deeper than ours.

We do practice a kick such as you mention, but it's not part of Isshin-Ryu as I understand it. Sensei calls it 'dead-leg' and for example, we'll do a roundhouse type kick and really lay the leg down on the bag (we can't really kick each other with this kick, it's way too strong). It's like swinging an ax into a tree, it really sinks in. You can feel the power behind it. However, the argument is that it's a risk; if it doesn't disable, it can be caught or trapped.

With our vertical punch, the wrist is held straight so that the back of the hand is level with the arm. The thumb goes on top of the fist, which is unusual for Okinawan-style karate. It rests on the second knuckle of the index finger. The fist is angled downwards, but only slightly; I've seen Youtube video of Isshin-Ryu practitioners that angles the fist down way too much. The goal is that the top two knuckles will impact the opponent. Our 'vertical fist' isn't truly vertical; it's canted a tiny bit, so it's more like 10 o'clock if you know what I mean. We do not use a torquing punch except in Sanchin, which we do Goju-Ryu style (we also have a vertical punch Isshin-Ryu version of Sanchin).

When I mentioned the shinbone kick, yes, that's also not Isshin-Ryu; I think we got it from Muay Thai like you.

Our blocks differ from Shotokan a bit. We block with the 'meaty' part of the arm on jodan type blocks. For example, our exercise 'jodan uke, seiken tsuki' is a head block followed by a reverse punch. The block consists of stepping forward (or back as necessary), and blocking with the arm over the leading leg. The arm crosses the center line and then rises with force, with the hand in a fist and the palm facing inwards towards the face of the person throwing it. In other words, we can see the inside of our own hand, not the back of our own hand. The elbow comes up to about eye-high. We don't lean into the block, we wait for the punch to come to us. We also practice 'rooting' ourselves into the block so that the power of the opponent's punch isn't being absorbed by our arms.

I've tried blocking the other way, and it really hurts when the person's fist or arm comes crashing down on your arm. I like the 'meat' block better! We also have an upper body block with the open hand which can be either a chop block or it can be turned into a deflect-and-grab, which is sweet. Throw the open hand up, turning the hand from inside to outside as it rises, deflect the incoming arm upwards, continue to turn the hand, grab the arm, and pull it down hard to the obi, while launching the fist from the opposite side. By turning their power into your own rotational power, they are actually fueling the power in your punch while at the same time you're pulling their face do to meet your punch; fantastic!

I would love to get together with practitioners of other styles sometimes to just compare and spar a bit and practice different things and see what works and what doesn't (for me, I realize some people are better suited to different styles). Fortunately, my dojo doesn't claim to be the one true karate, etc. We do Isshin-Ryu and we like it, but we see other styles as full of good stuff too.

 

[Tez3]

There's only us, a JKD school and a TKD class around us, we are in the middle of the Dales so everything is miles away, for example our nearest hospital is nearly 20 miles away.
The TSD we do was taught by an instructor who I suspect changed a lot of things in it, there's moves in the patterns in the books I have that he's changed. I've seen the elbows in the patterns but there were never done in practice. In the books I have there aren't as many techniques as that found in Shotokan or Wado though. Wado definitely has more kicks, I've been comparing them.
Only the children's class does TSD and we teach them all sorts of things from other styles anyway as they will leave us at some point to go to other clubs and styles so the more they know the better, helps them fit in at their new places. It's hard enough for them moving all the time anyway, new schools, new friends etc so things they recognise in martial arts helps them felt more comfortable in their new clubs. it's a compromise as far as martial arts are concerned but it suits the children. It's also the main reason the adults do MMA, we can take students of all styles that way for the length of time they are in the area.

If we were a civilian club I'd have to think very seriously about continuing with TSD as taught to us, I'd have to look for something deeper than we have. We don't belong to any organisation other than a group with whom we are insured but it has nothing to do with gradings, ranks etc. I've been going to a JKD class once a week, enjoying being just a student, a lot of it is familiar from Wado funnily enough.

 

[dancingalone]

The TSD we do was taught by an instructor who I suspect changed a lot of things in it, there's moves in the patterns in the books I have that he's changed. I've seen the elbows in the patterns but there were never done in practice.

A common complaint. It's a shame when your patterns don't match up with your basics or your sparring and self-defense. Ideally, they should all be integrated.

In the books I have there aren't as many techniques as that found in Shotokan or Wado though.

Depends on the books we're looking at, I suppose. I have a huge MA book collection of varying styles and arts. If you look at any of the comprehensive tomes like Richard Bryne's TSD book, etc, you'll see that TSD claims as many techniques as any other karate-based art. Granted most studios never practice the more esoteric methods, like crane blocks, but they are there.

Wado definitely has more kicks, I've been comparing them.

Not that it really matters, but your experience is different from mine. Wado-ryu is particularly strong in the US in the southeastern part of the country, and this branch of Wado certainly does not practice the various spinning and jumping kicks so universal across taekwondo or tang soo do. Fancy kicks for them are the spinning back kick and the common flying sidekick. To me this makes sense. They have the jujutsu-derived portion of the system to practice, so they don't have time nor inclination to work on material perhaps antithetical to their core art principles.

If we were a civilian club I'd have to think very seriously about continuing with TSD as taught to us, I'd have to look for something deeper than we have. We don't belong to any organisation other than a group with whom we are insured but it has nothing to do with gradings, ranks etc. I've been going to a JKD class once a week, enjoying being just a student, a lot of it is familiar from Wado funnily enough.

There's a man near me that teaches TSD blended with BJJ and Judo. I think his curriculum is pretty darn good. He intentionally sought out ways to cover the gaps in the TSD he had been taught himself.

 

[dancingalone]

I've tried blocking the other way, and it really hurts when the person's fist or arm comes crashing down on your arm. I like the 'meat' block better!

This is where that body conditioning comes in. Kotekitae, perhaps a dirty word to some. When I was coming up through the ranks, I often lined up with one of my seniors who was much beefier and stronger than me because I knew he could make me quit the exercise within 5 minutes with bruises up and down my arms. Over time I developed the same hardness and I can now make other people wince in pain when I catch with them a block.

I believe there are good points to both types of blocking. Isshinryu type blocking is probably safer in general for the body and it might be slightly quicker and more efficient as a stoppage manuever. On the other hand, the block with the blade of the arm is more advantageous if you are working tuite or kyusho applications IMO.

I would love to get together with practitioners of other styles sometimes to just compare and spar a bit and practice different things and see what works and what doesn't (for me, I realize some people are better suited to different styles). Fortunately, my dojo doesn't claim to be the one true karate, etc. We do Isshin-Ryu and we like it, but we see other styles as full of good stuff too.

Indeed. I also enjoy working out with karate-ka from a variety of styles. Goju-ryu and Isshin-ryu people can often share bunkai as well due to the overlap in their curricula.

 

[Tez3]

A common complaint. It's a shame when your patterns don't match up with your basics or your sparring and self-defense. Ideally, they should all be integrated.

I know, it's one reason I train with Iain Abernethy whenever it's possible. It's real 'joined up' karate then.



Depends on the books we're looking at, I suppose. I have a huge MA book collection of varying styles and arts. If you look at any of the comprehensive tomes like Richard Bryne's TSD book, etc, you'll see that TSD claims as many techniques as any other karate-based art. Granted most studios never practice the more esoteric methods, like crane blocks, but they are there.

The one we work from is Grand Master Kang Uk Lee's 'Ultimate guide to Tang Soo Do', I can't do crane...it would break my nails rofl.



Not that it really matters, but your experience is different from mine. Wado-ryu is particularly strong in the US in the southeastern part of the country, and this branch of Wado certainly does not practice the various spinning and jumping kicks so universal across taekwondo or tang soo do. Fancy kicks for them are the spinning back kick and the common flying sidekick. To me this makes sense. They have the jujutsu-derived portion of the system to practice, so they don't have time nor inclination to work on material perhaps antithetical to their core art principles.

Isn't it strange how the same style will vary from place to place! In Wado we definitely have a lot of kicks, we do them off both leading and back leg, jumping and spinning as well as scissors. As well as hop and slide steps before a kick to gain distance. If you can find Shingo Ohgami's book 'Introduction to karate' you'll see all the kicks we did/I do.


There's a man near me that teaches TSD blended with BJJ and Judo. I think his curriculum is pretty darn good. He intentionally sought out ways to cover the gaps in the TSD he had been taught himself.

Sounds like he has it sorted, a good stand up with good groundwork of which some is in the patterns/kata makes you well rounded I've found.

 

[dancingalone]

In Wado we definitely have a lot of kicks, we do them off both leading and back leg, jumping and spinning as well as scissors. As well as hop and slide steps before a kick to gain distance. If you can find Shingo Ohgami's book 'Introduction to karate' you'll see all the kicks we did/I do.

I have his kata book, but not 'Introduction to Karate'. Looks like it is in print and available from Amazon. Whoo-Hoo! I'll get a copy sooner or later.

As for the kicks, the Wado I've seen in person does practice the step up and step through variations of the usual front, roundhouse, and side kicks. What they don't do typically are jump spinning hook kicks, double tornado kicks, flying back wheel kicks, reverse roundhouse kicks, etc. There are examples of kicks I would say aren't in Wado yet many (most?) TSD studios practice them to an extent, particular at the red belt or higher level.

 

[Tez3]

I have his kata book, but not 'Introduction to Karate'. Looks like it is in print and available from Amazon. Whoo-Hoo! I'll get a copy sooner or later.

As for the kicks, the Wado I've seen in person does practice the step up and step through variations of the usual front, roundhouse, and side kicks. What they don't do typically are jump spinning hook kicks, double tornado kicks, flying back wheel kicks, reverse roundhouse kicks, etc. There are examples of kicks I would say aren't in Wado yet many (most?) TSD studios practice them to an extent, particular at the red belt or higher level.

I know how to do the jump spinning hook kick, I won't say I can do them together anymore (can do the spin or the jump lol) other than a very poor attempt these days, others in my Wado class ( the younger ones lol) did them, they also did the others though as I'm not sure what the tornado kick actually is I'm not sure about that one. We also had the double front kick, I can do it to knee height lol but others did it properly a la Van Damme! As you progressed throught the gradings, the jumping spinning kicks became more common. I didn't see them used though in the TSD classes I went to, they focussed mostly on patterns without Bunkai which is a grevious sin in my eyes LOL. They sparred a little and once I was paired with a blue belt who tried to smack me around as I was yellow then in TSD, didn't work and I had to explain I was a Dan grade in another style, he went off in a huff at misleading him but I wouldn't wear a belt gained in another style, to me that was dishonest.

I have the kata book also, it's a bit of a bible to me. The 'intro to karate' shows the author's scientific background because it has equations I will never understand in it, he has a study of Tsuki ( punch) which goes on for a few pages. I quote

" let us look at Tsuki from the aspect of dynamics. This discussion is important because one can apply it to other karate techniques such as different hand techniques, blocks or even kicks. An effective punch, that is to say, a destructive punch is a punch with high energetic possiblilty in the sense of dynamics"


So far so good then
"According to basics physics the energy equation is
E=mgh+1/2mv..........." there's equations, diagrams and all sorts at one point he says "for easier understanding let us consider simple acceleration. v=a . a=acceleration, t= time, so v is a function of acceleration (a). Furthermore...."

Er not furthermore, I was lost at the first sentence. However the photos I can understand and when he's not doing the science stuff he explains very well things like relaxation and weight shifting and Kime. The list of things to think about and do while practising punching that follows the science is very good.

He does the same with the kicks and to a lesser extent the blocks. On page 168 he has photos, diagrams and the explanation of the rear foot in Gyakuzuki, the previous two pages are explaining how to do it. He says its better to bring the rear foot forward in an inward circular direction to utilise the twisting of the body effectively. The book contains far more explanations than I've found common in other books. Well worth getting.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

This is where that body conditioning comes in. Kotekitae, perhaps a dirty word to some. When I was coming up through the ranks, I often lined up with one of my seniors who was much beefier and stronger than me because I knew he could make me quit the exercise within 5 minutes with bruises up and down my arms. Over time I developed the same hardness and I can now make other people wince in pain when I catch with them a block.

We also do kotekitae. But not with bone-on-bone blocks.

I believe there are good points to both types of blocking. Isshinryu type blocking is probably safer in general for the body and it might be slightly quicker and more efficient as a stoppage manuever. On the other hand, the block with the blade of the arm is more advantageous if you are working tuite or kyusho applications IMO.

I don't know tuite or kyusho applications, so I cannot say. I have heard it said that Shimabuku sensei developed the Isshin-Ryu style blocks because he mainly taught US Marines, who could not very well show up at work all the time with busted arms. I have no idea how true that is. I will say that my natural inclination is to block more like I've seen Shotokan karateka do it, so that must be more 'natural' for me (having never been trained in Shotokan). But over time, the Isshin-Ryu method of blocking has eventually become my natural reflex.

Indeed. I also enjoy working out with karate-ka from a variety of styles. Goju-ryu and Isshin-ryu people can often share bunkai as well due to the overlap in their curricula.

Pretty cool stuff. My sensei just came back from a trip where he want to learn 'oar kata' (Eku kata) down in Florida. Now he's passing it on to us. I'm pretty glad that he's not a "If it isn't Isshin-Ryu, it's crap" kind of sensei. We try to learn from whatever makes sense. Heck, sensei has always told us that if you want to learn power and speed, take boxing lessons. We practice certain boxing moves too.

 

[geezer]

One of the first things we're taught in Isshin-Ryu is the crescent or 'half-moon' step...

So my questions are these. How common is the crescent step outside of Isshin-Ryu? Does your style practice it or anything like it? quote]

Well, getting back to the OP, Wing Chun makes extensive use of circle-stepping movements known as huen bo. It allows us to cover our groin and manuver around our opponents lead leg when fighting very close (consider, for example, moving in around that protruding leg on the WC wooden dummy). It also can make a very effective sweep, sometimes referred to as kau bo or "plucking step". And when used explosively when closing range, it can help side-step and deflect a lower level linear kick. Considering the Chinese roots of Okinawan Te, I'm not surprised by this similarity.

 

[lhommedieu]

One of the first things we're taught in Isshin-Ryu is the crescent or 'half-moon' step...

So my questions are these. How common is the crescent step outside of Isshin-Ryu? Does your style practice it or anything like it? quote]

Well, getting back to the OP, Wing Chun makes extensive use of circle-stepping movements known as huen bo. It allows us to cover our groin and manuver around our opponents lead leg when fighting very close (consider, for example, moving in around that protruding leg on the WC wooden dummy). It also can make a very effective sweep, sometimes referred to as kau bo or "plucking step". And when used explosively when closing range, it can help side-step and deflect a lower level linear kick. Considering the Chinese roots of Okinawan Te, I'm not surprised by this similarity.

All good points. Isshin's half-moon step allows you to shift weight (and more importantly) to center your weight under your hips; this allows you (as someone posted above) to treat every step as if it were a kick and to do so in a bio-mechanically efficient manner. You also get all the movements inherent in the form of the kick, i.e, deflections, knees, sweeps, etc., all while moving slightly off-line of the opponent.

Moving the rear foot close to and past the front foot occurs in a lot of martial arts. I practiced some Isshin Ryu in the past but practice mostly Filipino and Chinese martial arts currently. One thing to consider is that because the moving foot is "light" it can stop at any point of its arc and either go back ("whoops - I guess I'd rather bail") or plant to provide the base for another footwork pattern. You can see this in FMA's "triangle step" foot patterns and in Xing Yi Quan's "chicken step," although Xing Yi's stepping is almost linear. Ditto Ba Gua Zhang's "mud step" wherein the inside leg swings in and then out while you're circle-walking.

All in all a great example of how common principles can inform similar techniques in different arts.

Best,

Steve