Blood Flow Restriction/ Kātsu Training

[Gyakuto]

I can see what you’re saying. I’m not sure I could do 10 sec eccentric/concentric phases of my leg press!

I imagine my cartilages as if they were eggs. Regardless of the rate of change of load application, there will come a force that will shatter them. Anecdotally, I’ve never met an older lifter who hasn’t had knee issues but of course something else might’ve caused that.

Anyway, I do not squat with heavy weights…I have neither the need nor desire but I’ll try and circumvent potential damage by using BFR and much reducing the mass I’m pushing.

 

[MetalBoar]

I can see what you’re saying. I’m not sure I could do 10 sec eccentric/concentric phases of my leg press!

Maintaining good form to actual, deep, momentary muscular failure requires practice and grit. It also just takes some getting used to, but it becomes extremely meditative, it feels (and is) extremely safe, and it gets to be a fun challenge (for some of us). Plus, my target time for leg press is 1 minute, 1 set to complete failure, so I don't have to spend 20 minutes and multiple sets in misery to do it.

I imagine my cartilages as if they were eggs. Regardless of the rate of change of load application, there will come a force that will shatter them.

Lots of people see it this way, it's just not particularly accurate, at least not if you build up to it as you develop really solid form and experience with the movements and give your body time to recovery and adapt.

Anecdotally, I’ve never met an older lifter who hasn’t had knee issues but of course something else might’ve caused that.

Yeah, knee issues are just very common. In my experience most new clients I had over 40 listed knee problems on their intake form and most of them had never lifted before. My wife and I are a couple of the only people I know in our 50's who don't have knee problems. I attribute a lot of that to using this protocol and lifting regularly for the last 25 years.

 

[O'Malley]

Wouldn't progressively adding more reps/doing drop sets help your joints progressively accommodate the load? And if it's just about stimulating blood flow, wouldn't other methods work as well? (E.g. massages or tiger balm)? I'm ignorant on that matter so I'd be curious to know, but that whole BFR thing seems contrived to me.

By the way, if you look to reinforce your lower body's connective tissue, look up Chong Xie's hyperarch fascial training. I find it helpful.

 

[Gyakuto]

Wouldn't progressively adding more reps/doing drop sets help your joints progressively accommodate the load? And if it's just about stimulating blood flow, wouldn't other methods work as well? (E.g. massages or tiger balm)?

Cartilage is avascular….it has no blood vessels so you cannot increase blood flow to it. It’s avascular nature is one of the reasons it heals so slowly and has very limited regenerative powers! Look after you knee cartilage!

I'm ignorant on that matter so I'd be curious to know, but that whole BFR thing seems contrived to me.

Athletes Blood Flow Restriction Training for Athletes: A Systematic Review - PubMed
Type 2 diabetes Effects of Blood Flow Restriction Exercise and Possible Applications in Type 2 Diabetes - PubMed
Injury rehabilitation Blood flow restriction training in clinical musculoskeletal rehabilitation: a systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed
Endurance training Blood flow restriction training and the high-performance athlete: science to application - PubMed
Osteoarthritis of knee Benefits of Resistance Training with Blood Flow Restriction in Knee Osteoarthritis - PubMed

Low intensity blood flow restriction training: a meta-analysis - PubMed

The primary objective of this investigation was to quantitatively identify which training variables result in the greatest strength and hypertrophy outcomes with lower body low intensity training with blood flow restriction (LI-BFR). Searches were performed for published studies with certain...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I could go on. ….

I believe this person is respected in the area of muscular hypertrophy. Her he talks about BFR and chronic pain.

I asked around in my gym this morning and of the three or four people, nobody had heard of it! I think this is the issue. It’s been used since the 80s for rehabilitation where high loads are not feasible by the idea is counterintuitive to people 3ho don’t really understand the factors that produce muscular hypertrophy. It analogous to endurancecathletes training at altitude in order to trigger physiological mechanisms to produce more erythrocytes and myoglobin. In BFR training (BFRT) you’re reducing oxygen to muscle tissue, allowing metabolic byproducts of muscular contraction to accumulate around the muscles which tricks the triggering of physiological compensatory mechanism to overcome thes issue, including release of growth hormone which make muscle hypertrophy and become more (micro) vascular. Releasing the bands means these triggering biochemical flow to the rest of the body and produce beneficial effects elsewhere.

As an empiricist, I simply have to try it out. I’d be a Luddite not to!

My cuffs just arrived

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Cartilage is avascular….it has no blood vessels so you cannot increase blood flow to it. It’s avascular nature is one of the reasons it heals so slowly and has very limited regenerative powers! Look after you knee cartilage!

Athletes Blood Flow Restriction Training for Athletes: A Systematic Review - PubMed
Type 2 diabetes Effects of Blood Flow Restriction Exercise and Possible Applications in Type 2 Diabetes - PubMed
Injury rehabilitation Blood flow restriction training in clinical musculoskeletal rehabilitation: a systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed
Endurance training Blood flow restriction training and the high-performance athlete: science to application - PubMed
Osteoarthritis of knee Benefits of Resistance Training with Blood Flow Restriction in Knee Osteoarthritis - PubMed

Low intensity blood flow restriction training: a meta-analysis - PubMed

The primary objective of this investigation was to quantitatively identify which training variables result in the greatest strength and hypertrophy outcomes with lower body low intensity training with blood flow restriction (LI-BFR). Searches were performed for published studies with certain...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I could go on. ….

I believe this person is respected in the area of muscular hypertrophy. Her he talks about BFR and chronic pain.

I asked around in my gym this morning and of the three or four people, nobody had heard of it! I think this is the issue. It’s been used since the 80s for rehabilitation where high loads are not feasible by the idea is counterintuitive to people 3ho don’t really understand the factors that produce muscular hypertrophy. It analogous to endurancecathletes training at altitude in order to trigger physiological mechanisms to produce more erythrocytes and myoglobin. In BFR training (BFRT) you’re reducing oxygen to muscle tissue, allowing metabolic byproducts of muscular contraction to accumulate around the muscles which tricks the triggering of physiological compensatory mechanism to overcome thes issue, including release of growth hormone which make muscle hypertrophy and become more (micro) vascular. Releasing the bands means these triggering biochemical flow to the rest of the body and produce beneficial effects elsewhere.

As an empiricist, I simply have to try it out. I’d be a Luddite not to!

My cuffs just arrived
View attachment 31754

Once when I was in the Marine Corps, I locked my knees while standing at the position of attention for too long, which cut off blood flow to my lower extremities. When I moved my knees, I passed out. It seems to me that restricting blood flow intentionally is about the nuttiest thing a person could do. Ask David Carradine.

 

[Gyakuto]

Once when I was in the Marine Corps, I locked my knees while standing at the position of attention for too long, which cut off blood flow to my lower extremities.

Locking your knees cut of the blood flow to your lower extremities? Locking your knees which keeps your arteries straight and unkinked ‘cut off’ your legs blood flow? Do you do much reading Bill? Not Harry Potter, I mean school- level biology?

When I moved my knees, I passed out.

And standing in position for a long time had little to do with that?

It seems to me that restricting blood flow intentionally is about the nuttiest thing a person could do.

Athletes Blood Flow Restriction Training for Athletes: A Systematic Review - PubMed
Type 2 diabetes Effects of Blood Flow Restriction Exercise and Possible Applications in Type 2 Diabetes - PubMed
Injury rehabilitation Blood flow restriction training in clinical musculoskeletal rehabilitation: a systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed
Endurance training Blood flow restriction training and the high-performance athlete: science to application - PubMed
Osteoarthritis of knee Benefits of Resistance Training with Blood Flow Restriction in Knee Osteoarthritis - PubMed

I’ll contact the authors of these paper and tell them what you said, immediately!

Ask David Carradine

Shall I dignify this, which is obviously a joke, with a response?

 

[_Simon_]

Cartilage is avascular….it has no blood vessels so you cannot increase blood flow to it. It’s avascular nature is one of the reasons it heals so slowly and has very limited regenerative powers! Look after you knee cartilage!

Athletes Blood Flow Restriction Training for Athletes: A Systematic Review - PubMed
Type 2 diabetes Effects of Blood Flow Restriction Exercise and Possible Applications in Type 2 Diabetes - PubMed
Injury rehabilitation Blood flow restriction training in clinical musculoskeletal rehabilitation: a systematic review and meta-analysis - PubMed
Endurance training Blood flow restriction training and the high-performance athlete: science to application - PubMed
Osteoarthritis of knee Benefits of Resistance Training with Blood Flow Restriction in Knee Osteoarthritis - PubMed

Low intensity blood flow restriction training: a meta-analysis - PubMed

The primary objective of this investigation was to quantitatively identify which training variables result in the greatest strength and hypertrophy outcomes with lower body low intensity training with blood flow restriction (LI-BFR). Searches were performed for published studies with certain...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I could go on. ….

I believe this person is respected in the area of muscular hypertrophy. Her he talks about BFR and chronic pain.

I asked around in my gym this morning and of the three or four people, nobody had heard of it! I think this is the issue. It’s been used since the 80s for rehabilitation where high loads are not feasible by the idea is counterintuitive to people 3ho don’t really understand the factors that produce muscular hypertrophy. It analogous to endurancecathletes training at altitude in order to trigger physiological mechanisms to produce more erythrocytes and myoglobin. In BFR training (BFRT) you’re reducing oxygen to muscle tissue, allowing metabolic byproducts of muscular contraction to accumulate around the muscles which tricks the triggering of physiological compensatory mechanism to overcome thes issue, including release of growth hormone which make muscle hypertrophy and become more (micro) vascular. Releasing the bands means these triggering biochemical flow to the rest of the body and produce beneficial effects elsewhere.

As an empiricist, I simply have to try it out. I’d be a Luddite not to!

My cuffs just arrived
View attachment 31754

Have fun!!! Enjoy... the sensations ;D

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Locking your knees cut of the blood flow to your lower extremities? Locking your knees which keeps your arteries straight and unkinked ‘cut off’ your legs blood flow? Do you do much reading Bill? Not Harry Potter, I mean school- level biology?

And standing in position for a long time had little to do with that?

I have only the experience of watching people pass out in formation after standing at attention for hours at a time, then I forgot not to lock my knees and it happened to me.

I'm not a doctor. My job was to make work for doctors.

Can Standing Up Straight for a Long Period Cause Fainting? | UAMS Health

People faint for a variety of reasons. Standing, particularly when associated with heat or emotional stress, can cause blood to pool in the lower extremities. "If dehydration is present the situation is worsened," explains Dr. Richard Nicholas, one of our orthopedic surgeons at UAMS. "The low...

uamshealth.com

 

[isshinryuronin]

I'm not a doctor. My job was to make work for doctors.

Thanks for supporting our health care system.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Locking your knees cut of the blood flow to your lower extremities? Locking your knees which keeps your arteries straight and unkinked ‘cut off’ your legs blood flow? Do you do much reading Bill? Not Harry Potter, I mean school- level biology?

When you're walking or even moving, the calf muscles help pump the blood uphill. Standing motionless with the legs straight leads to blood pooling in the lower extremities. Which is a risk factor for DVT, obviously. It also increases the odds of vasovagal syncope. Passing out, in other words.

 

[Gyakuto]

Have fun!!! Enjoy... the sensations ;D

That sounds ominous! I’ll try it for a month.

 

[Gyakuto]

I decided to invest in the Doppler device to get the restricting pressures correct. Do it properly or not at all.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Thanks for supporting our health care system.

Hey, some people build, some tear down.

 

[Gyakuto]

I had my shoulder injected with steroids again this AM. I took the opportunity to ask the very experienced physiotherapist if he’d heard of Blood flow restriction training. To my surprise he had and added that there were hopes that it would be available on the NHS for rehabilitation, but everything moves so slowly and there’s a lack of funding. We chatted about the research and he agreed it was a remarkable therapy with a lot of potential especially for the infirm.

By coincidence my book on the subject was delivered too!

 

[Fungus]

I had my shoulder injected with steroids again this AM. I took the opportunity to ask the very experienced physiotherapist if he’d heard of Blood flow restriction training. To my surprise he had and added that there were hopes that it would be available on the NHS for rehabilitation, but everything moves so slowly and there’s a lack of funding.

Finally you get something for your tax money!

By coincidence my book on the subject was delivered too!

Looks fun! Now the comment in post #17 makes even more sense.

The Role of Nitric Oxide in Erectile Dysfunction: Implications for Medical Therapy
"The erectile response is triggered with the initial release of NO by the autonomic NANC dilator nerve fibers supplying the corpora cavernosa and the vascular and sinusoidal endothelium. Further NO release from the endothelium results from blood flow shear forces..."
-- The Role of Nitric Oxide in Erectile Dysfunction: Implications for Medical Therapy

 

[Gyakuto]

Finally you get something for your tax money!

Looks fun! Now the comment in post #17 makes even more sense.

The Role of Nitric Oxide in Erectile Dysfunction: Implications for Medical Therapy
"The erectile response is triggered with the initial release of NO by the autonomic NANC dilator nerve fibers supplying the corpora cavernosa and the vascular and sinusoidal endothelium. Further NO release from the endothelium results from blood flow shear forces..."
-- The Role of Nitric Oxide in Erectile Dysfunction: Implications for Medical Therapy

Nitric oxide was the big thing when I was an undergraduate.It seemed so unlikely that a free radical could mediate smooth muscle relaxation.

 

[Fungus]

Nitric oxide was the big thing when I was an undergraduate.It seemed so unlikely that a free radical could mediate smooth muscle relaxation.

Yes, amazing that such an odd and simple compound become a key player.

My own personal relation to nitrogen oxides was from high school days and mainly NO2 - (I was mainly a chemistry geek back then, and i was not into MA at all) and one of the most cool and potent acids was the mighty red fuming nitric acid (supersaturated nitric acid with cool red fumes looking like bromine gas). Very potent nasty stuff. I inhalded my doses of that back them and my mother did not like the hobby Our chemistry teacher was just chuckling at our strange questions.

 

[Gyakuto]

I measured my upper limb occlusion pressure (LOP = 155mmHg) with a doppler. 60% of that is 93mmHg so I pumped the cuffs to that level and experimented with biceps curls with 5kg dumbbells -> 30 reps, 15 reps, 15 reps, 15reps with 30sec rest between sets.

The power goes out of one’s arms very quickly. The last set it very difficult as one’s strength has all but gone. Releasing the cuff pressure is very pleasant and then I experienced something I’ve clearly never actually felt before: the fabled ‘pump’. What a strange sensation of ‘congestion’ and tightness almost like the prelude to a cramp that never comes. It’s not unpleasant or particularly nice, either.

Tomorrow I’ll try bicep curls and tricep extensions. I tried to measure my lower limb occlusion but couldn’t seem to get the cuff pressure high enough. Even at 400+mmHg I could still hear my pulse I don’t understand I’ll estimate the 60% of occlusion pressure from average data sets and take it from there.

 

[Gyakuto]

I awoke with a deep ache in each bicep! It can’t be due to microtears from heavy lifting as I only used 5kg dumbbells so it must’ve been due to the accumulation of lactate etc as predicted.

 

[Fungus]

I tried to measure my lower limb occlusion but couldn’t seem to get the cuff pressure high enough. Even at 400+mmHg I could still hear my pulse I don’t understand

Is the cuff properly aligned and designed for the much larger leg? (assuming this is the "lower limb" you refer to)

It is a well known systematic error in all cuff based blood measurement that using a too small cuff, tend to overestimate the blood pressure.