bjj is derived from judo

[jarrod]

was starting to hijack a thread in the wing chun forum, so i thought i'd start another thread. i'm not intending to carry on a needless arguement with the person i'm quoting, i just don't want anyone reading the thread to be misinformed.

Hubbies a black belt Judo, and assure that BJJ is NOT decended from Judo. He never heard of BJJ in the 70's-80's when he was involved in Judo.
I became aware of BJJ through the UFC fights when they started in the 90's, that's when I took JJJ. Never heard a peep about it until Gracie came bounding in the ring.

News to us.

i'm a black belt in judo too (for whatever that's worth), & i assure you that just because your husband didn't hear of bjj until 1993 doesn't mean that it spontaneously developed that year. bjj uses a japanese uniform, & most every technique in bjj can be found in old judo & jjj books. many of the names for bjj techniques are direct translations of their japanese name (triangle choke/sankaku jime, rear naked choke/ juji jime, scarf hold/kesa gatame). it's widely accepted in both japan & brazil that bjj is derived from japanese arts.

i really don't mean any disrespect, but this is all pretty commonly accepted history. i don't quite understand your disdain for bjj. i'm not even a bjj practitioner but i believe that all arts have their place. just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not closely connected to something you do like.

all the best,

jf

 

[D Dempsey]

I agree with you 100 percent on this one Jarrod. BJJ being descended from Judo is pretty obvious and and widely accepted. Carlos Gracie first stated teaching in Brazil in the 1920s, so in the grand scale of things BJJ isn't a whole lot younger than the Kodokan. Furthermore just because someone had never heard of something before in no way means it is something new. I'm pretty sure that a lot of Judo players were not familar with SAMBO in the 1970s either even though it had been around for nearly 50 years at that point.

 

[jarrod]

sambo is also a good example. clearly derived from judo. the kosen judo movement is not widely known even now, but it certainly happened.

jf

 

[Journeyman]

Kano----->Maeda----->Carlos Gracie

 

[ljdevo]

All correct, yeah. BJJ from Judo.
The irony that JJJ was transformed into a sport (Judo) when martial arts were branded illegal by the japanese government, then when the sport was introduced into Brazil, it was transformed back into a Martial Art by the Brazillians. Therfore created from the same principles and style, althought that is why you will find minor differences within JJJ and BJJ.

 

[D Dempsey]

All correct, yeah. BJJ from Judo.
The irony that JJJ was transformed into a sport (Judo) when martial arts were branded illegal by the japanese government, then when the sport was introduced into Brazil, it was transformed back into a Martial Art by the Brazillians. Therfore created from the same principles and style, althought that is why you will find minor differences within JJJ and BJJ.

Your time line is a little off. The Judo that was to become BJJ was brought to Brazil before 1920, thus predating WW2 and the Japanese occupation. Besides that Japanese government never banned martial arts, that was the U.S. immediately following WW2 and it didn't last that long. So there would of been no transforming of JJJ to Judo to appease anyone as the Kodokan was founded in 1882 and would have already been around for some 65 years.

 

[SA_BJJ]

Yes you are right! Thats all Im gonna say...we all know what happened last time I got involved in this convo...lol

 

[MattJ]

Kind of ironic that the Judo guy didn't know BJJ was derived from Judo. I have heard some Judo people (jokingly) refer to BJJ as "The Cliff's Notes of Judo". LOL :ultracool

 

[Xue Sheng]

Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

As already posted
Kano Jigoro (judo) > Mitsuyo Maeda (Sumo then Judo) > Carlos Gracie

 

[punisher73]

There's a reason why no one had heard of BJJ "till the Gracies came bounding into the ring". It was STILL IN BRAZIL!!!!

How many people heard of karate or Judo for that matter, until US Serviceman brought it back to the US or immigrants from those countries brought it here?

As far as the history goes, Maeda taught the Gracies and they concentrated on the certain aspects of it based on Maeda's preferences. Gracies tried to hype themselves even back then saying that they were better than Judo. Kimura broke Helio's arm in a match on soft mats (thus the name for the BJJ technique) after throwing him around like a rag doll.

Gracie's version of JJ has self-defense techniques in it that are not taught in most BJJ schools. When you look at the majority of their curriculum in the SD category it looks like any other TMA.

 

[jarrod]

i kind of thought this issue had been settled long ago. thanks all for chiming in. i thought maybe i'd fried my memory somehow.

jf

 

[arnisador]

Unequivocally, BJJ is modified Judo.

sambo is also a good example.

Yes, but while it's principally Judo its pedigree is a bit more mixed. Of course, BJJ has been adding wrestling and such for some while now too!

[/quote]the kosen judo movement is not widely known even now, but it certainly happened. [/quote]

Yup. But it's sure hard to find anyone who does it now!

 

[jarrod]

Unequivocally, BJJ is modified Judo.



Yes, but while it's principally Judo its pedigree is a bit more mixed. Of course, BJJ has been adding wrestling and such for some while now too!

i agree, sambo had far more arts to borrow from.

the kosen judo movement is not widely known even now, but it certainly happened. [/quote]

Yup. But it's sure hard to find anyone who does it now![/quote]

according to what i read, kosen was not style unto itself but a movement within the kodokan which took place with kano's knowledge & approval. so i think technically any judoka who prefers newaza could argueably be a kosen judoka!

jf

 

[Ybot]

Absolutely BJJ came from Judo. Pre-WWII Judo, as did the modern sport of Judo. Both evolved from the original source of Pre-WWII Judo, and are different today based on sporting rules being applied.

BTW I am a BJJ guy, and just want to state that I am proud of our Judo heritage.

 

[ljdevo]

Your time line is a little off. The Judo that was to become BJJ was brought to Brazil before 1920, thus predating WW2 and the Japanese occupation. Besides that Japanese government never banned martial arts, that was the U.S. immediately following WW2 and it didn't last that long. So there would of been no transforming of JJJ to Judo to appease anyone as the Kodokan was founded in 1882 and would have already been around for some 65 years.

Hey, sorry about that. That was what i thought happened in Japan but i've just had a look on the internet and you're right.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

There are some BJJ moves that are not allowed in *modern, current* competition Judo, but there is but very little in the BJJ curriculum I see that was not also part of *Original* Judo.

They say "Kimura", we say "Udegarami".

They say "Guard", we say "Dojime".

The Kano-Maeda-Gracie lineage has already been addressed in a previous post.

Not for no reason does the internet joke have it that BJJ is an acronym for "Basically Just Judo".

I count them my cousins.

 

[Steve]

Kind of ironic that the Judo guy didn't know BJJ was derived from Judo. I have heard some Judo people (jokingly) refer to BJJ as "The Cliff's Notes of Judo". LOL :ultracool

The common joke I've heard: BJJ... Basically Just Judo.

Seriously, though, the two are cousins now. BJJ now has probably more in common with Kosen Judo than the more popular sport judo.

Guys like the Dave Camarillo and his "guerilla jiu jitsu" are trying to bring Judo and BJJ back together, emphasizing throws and ground work without neglecting either.

 

[allenjp]

BTW I am a BJJ guy, and just want to state that I am proud of our Judo heritage.

Amen brotha!

Not only does BJJ come from Judo, Judo came from JJJ. At first it was called Kano's Jujutsu. He created it by collecting techniques from the various JJJ ryuha and combining them. Even Takamatsu was among a group of Jujutsu masters with whom Kano met in 1912 to discuss techniques.

I have come to view modern Judo and BJJ as just representing two different aspects of what the "original Judo" was. One focuses on the stand up part, and one focuses on the ground.

The thing that makes BJJ unique in TODAY'S world is the Brazilian vale tudo culture. I think that had more influence on the Judo that became BJJ than anything else.

 

[allenjp]

Kimura broke Helio's arm in a match on soft mats (thus the name for the BJJ technique) after throwing him around like a rag doll.

Yes, yes.

But it must be remembered that Kimura only did this after Helio choked Japan's second rated Judo fighter, "Kato" completely unconcious when Kato outweighed him by at least forty pounds. Kimura outweighed him by even more than that, and it took him a while to beat Gracie.

 

[allenjp]

many of the names for bjj techniques are direct translations of their japanese name (triangle choke/sankaku jime, rear naked choke/ juji jime, scarf hold/kesa gatame).
jf

Good point...sankaku means triangle in Japanese. But the rear naked choke (mata leao in Portguese) I believe is actually called Hadaka Jime in Japanese. Hadaka means naked. Juji means "cross" which is why the armbar (armeloque in Portuguese) is called "Juji Gatame".