Big schools, small standards

Check out your local Gracie Barra BJJ schools, and I bet they have 300 students or more, and also maintain high standards.
It's unfair to compare a striking art school with a grappling art school. When a striking art student is still punching into the thin air, the grappling art students already wrestle with their opponents on the mat.

In striking art, sometime you think you have but you truly don't have. In grappling art, 5 rounds of match can truly tell whether you have or not.

Old saying said, "三年拳不如当年跤 - 3 years of striking art training cannot match with 1 year of grappling art training".
 
Our school was previously run for 27 years as a "for profit business" but the owner worked a very well paid full time job besides running the school so 100% of the school's income went to paying bills to keep the doors open. For that time we never had more than 30 or so students max with about 8-10 on the floor at any given time (broken up by age). We had very high standards during this 27ish years to the point that many students would go a year or more without testing for the next rank because they just weren't putting in the effort to make changes. Our rule has always been that you don't have to be gifted or be an A+ student but you have to at least make noticeable measurable changes based on the feedback given by the instructor. If those changes weren't made then you didn't test so a lot of our 10 years and up age group don't last more than a year because they can go to the school 12 miles away and literally just pay $40 for a new belt every 2-3 months. I took over 3 years ago as the owner and head instructor and want to try to run the school as a successful business while maintaining our standards but for every one student that actually tries it seems like 4-5 quit because they can get the belt at the "Taekwondo" daycare on the other side of town. This is not an exageration, I had a mom of a 12 and 14 year old ask me why her 12 year old daughter was eligible to test in 2 days but her son wasn't. Her 14 year old son puts in no effort, clearly doesn't want to be there and is always disruptive to the point of having to send him off the floor frequently during class. When I (as tactfully and respectfully as possible) told her this and that we need to see changes made she actually said, and this quote will forever be burned into my memory "well the *name redacted* taekwondo school on the south side gives the students new belts every 3 months. If its just a matter of payment I have the money." It really seams like this is how the "business" of MA is run.
I think you should stick to your standards and aim for breaking even on costs. It is easy and tempting to give in to the financials. You may need to keep a day job and keep this just something you do for the love of it. Maybe eventually you make some pocket money. That’s ok.
 
I am not surprised at all to learn that CMA schools that do not apply skills routinely have trouble maintaining standards.
Where did that come from? Admittedly I have a couple on ignore, but I didn't see anyone even mention CMA before you.

But in response, CMA schools that do apply skills routinely, have few students, and I'm ok with that..... mostly why a lot of CMA schools I have been to are small. Much of why you don't see many around and many do not advertise much. The only large one, and it is only large due to the number of schools it has worldwide, that appears to apply skills routinely is YMAA
 
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Where did that come from? Admittedly I have a couple on ignore, but I didn't see anyone even mention CMA before you.

But in response, CMA schools that do apply skills routinely, have few students, and I'm ok with that..... mostly why a lot of CMA schools I have been to are small. Much of why you don't see many around and many do not advertise much. The only large one, and it is only large due to the number of schools it has worldwide, that appears to apply skills routinely is YMAA
Someone mentioned having trouble maintaining standards with large classes. He does some kind of CMA. I agree that when you don’t have a real way to use the skills, it’s going to be hard to maintain standards.

This isn’t a knock on CMA. There are a lot of CMA that don’t have that problem . it’s a knock on lack of application, which happens all over the place.
 
Someone mentioned having trouble maintaining standards with large classes. He does some kind of CMA. I agree that when you don’t have a real way to use the skills, it’s going to be hard to maintain standards.

This isn’t a knock on CMA. There are a lot of CMA that don’t have that problem . it’s a knock on lack of application, which happens all over the place.
I remember my Sifu telling me to bring a mouth guard and cup to class when I finally got invited to the late class. The first night I watched guys go 2 vs 1 for 1 minute rounds. No rules, but the Sifu gave verbal instruction during each round and was very much in control of the match. People were bloodied and knocked down repeatedly. Does that count as application? Is that not a real way to use the skills? Would I need to kick someone’s knee or air choke them to prove that I can do it? Exactly how does one practice application of such things? Im not sure what you mean when you say this, perhaps you could elaborate for me. if I am misunderstanding you, please forgive me.
 
Where did that come from? Admittedly I have a couple on ignore, but I didn't see anyone even mention CMA before you.

But in response, CMA schools that do apply skills routinely, have few students, and I'm ok with that..... mostly why a lot of CMA schools I have been to are small. Much of why you don't see many around and many do not advertise much. The only large one, and it is only large due to the number of schools it has worldwide, that appears to apply skills routinely is YMAA
Not many people want to do CMA training. Hard work with no rank or patches on a neat uniform isn’t very attractive to most folks out shopping for a dojo. Plus, you know cultish and secretive CMA is.;) no place for kids.
 
Old saying said, "三年拳不如当年跤 - 3 years of striking art training cannot match with 1 year of grappling art training".
That doesn't look right...too wordy to be an "old saying".
It's unfair to compare a striking art school with a grappling art school. When a striking art student is still punching into the thin air, the grappling art students already wrestle with their opponents on the mat.

In striking art, sometime you think you have but you truly don't have. In grappling art, 5 rounds of match can truly tell whether you have or not.

Old saying said, "三年拳不如当年跤 - 3 years of striking art training cannot match with 1 year of grappling art training".
I agreed with your whole post, and that old saying, but I think you just made that up because it sounds right.

I also think a lot of white belt grapplers would get clobbered by just about anybody.

Besides, most CMA are not striking or grappling schools. They are both.
 
Someone mentioned having trouble maintaining standards with large classes. He does some kind of CMA. I agree that when you don’t have a real way to use the skills, it’s going to be hard to maintain standards.

This isn’t a knock on CMA. There are a lot of CMA that don’t have that problem . it’s a knock on lack of application, which happens all over the place.
It's not even about application, if you ask me. It's as simple as sweat and tears, and lack of physical discipline. That's what all the old school Chinese masters had (there are pics) and what a lot of modern "Kung Fu masters" lack (there is video).

People want the skills, but they rarely are willing to do the work required. I think all arts have this barrier to success. Learning a technique or a form full of them isn't the work, everything after is.

Bob Ross made a thousand happy trees before he got any good at one.

What good is technique or application if you're physically undisciplined? Or mentally? Not very.

Sadly, I do agree that certain people make a lot of money from these poor souls, the ones who are willing to take the easy way.

My standards for CMA? I can't count the number of nights I thought my training was going to kill me one way or another, so if you feel that most classes, you're probably in a decent school.
 
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Someone mentioned having trouble maintaining standards with large classes. He does some kind of CMA. I agree that when you don’t have a real way to use the skills, it’s going to be hard to maintain standards.

This isn’t a knock on CMA. There are a lot of CMA that don’t have that problem . it’s a knock on lack of application, which happens all over the place.

No offense taken, I was just wondering where the CMA thing came from, since it was not a CMA style in the OP

Problem with a lot of CMA is it can look nice and/or impressive due to various styles and their forms. Also a lot of people only think of CMA as what they see in Modern Wushu (form only). This brings in a lot of people who have no interest in the MA of it or the don't really understand MA at all. This is why Taijiquan groups can be large, and Xingyiquan schools, if you can find one, are very small. Also why Taijiquan is pretty much dead as a martial art. It is also why you see CMA schools teaching modern wushu (forms only) may teach Sanda for the martial arts. And the Sanda class is always smaller than the Modern Wushu class.
 
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Not many people want to do CMA training. Hard work with no rank or patches on a neat uniform isn’t very attractive to most folks out shopping for a dojo. Plus, you know cultish and secretive CMA is.;) no place for kids.

Actually a lot of space for kids if you are teaching modern wushu. A friend of mine has a CMA school and has a group of kids that he teaches the various form, he also teaches Sanda as well. He (not Chinese) spent several years training in China and is also very good at, and loves, what he does. He is, IMO, a martial artist to the core. He has trained multiple styles, Modern Wushu, Taijiquan, Sanda, BJJ, MMA, JKD, Kyokushin, etc. However I don't believe he is doing this to make anything more effective, he has done it, and does it, because he absolutely loves martial arts. He probably has the biggest CMA school in my area, but still considerably smaller than virtual any TKD school you can find. He loves what he does and is a very positive influence to the kids that train with him. And he does had a standard that he adheres to. It is likely the difficulty of the forms and that standard that keeps his school at the size it is. Also, his school appears to be the one where the Chinese community sends their kids. But with that said he also has a JKD group there, and pre pandemic there was a Japanese group holding classes there as well. And of course, as I mentioned, Sanda, both kids and an adult class
 
While I enjoy reading others posts, no one is addressing the issue.
Is it possible to run a large successful business and still maintain standards? The answer is yes. I feel quality is an absolute necessity if you want to be a larger school with any kind of longevity.
The problem is that there are three aspects.
1, it's a business. Run it as such. Most MA guys don't know a darn thing about doing that.
2, are you a good martial artist that meets the community standards that qualify as " good" everyone thinks they are good. Chances are more likely your not.
3, teaching and doing are TOTALY separate issues. Teaching is a skill and needs to be honed and refined. Teaching a single person or small group is very different than teaching a large group and teaching a large school is even more difficult. You can't do it by yourself. Which brings us back to #1. It's a business.

So going back to the question. yes it can be done, but the odds are stacked against you. I would also add that 1 out of 10 people will ever be any good at martial arts. So increasing the sample size decreases the percentage of those who will excel. The challenge then becomes how to grow a core group with a lot of fringes.
 
No offense taken, I was just wondering where the CMA thing came from, since it was not a CMA style in the OP

Problem with a lot of CMA is it can look nice and/or impressive due to various styles and their forms. Also a lot of people only think of CMA as what they see in Modern Wushu (form only). This brings in a lot of people who have no interest in the MA of it or the don't really understand MA at all. This is why Taijiquan groups can be large, and Xingyiquan schools, if you can find one, are very small. Also why Taijiquan is pretty much dead as a martial art. It is also why you see CMA schools teaching modern wushu (forms only) may teach Sanda for the martial arts. And the Sanda class is always smaller than the Modern Wushu class.
We are the only school I have found that teaches Tai chi in its martial aspect . Most people only teach it in one direction, are off balance, don’t understand the transitions, or are collapsed, etc. I could go on and on.
 
Actually a lot of space for kids if you are teaching modern wushu. A friend of mine has a CMA school and has a group of kids that he teaches the various form, he also teaches Sanda as well. He (not Chinese) spent several years training in China and is also very good at, and loves, what he does. He is, IMO, a martial artist to the core. He has trained multiple styles, Modern Wushu, Taijiquan, Sanda, BJJ, MMA, JKD, Kyokushin, etc. However I don't believe he is doing this to make anything more effective, he has done it, and does it, because he absolutely loves martial arts. He probably has the biggest CMA school in my area, but still considerably smaller than virtual any TKD school you can find. He loves what he does and is a very positive influence to the kids that train with him. And he does had a standard that he adheres to. It is likely the difficulty of the forms and that standard that keeps his school at the size it is. Also, his school appears to be the one where the Chinese community sends their kids. But with that said he also has a JKD group there, and pre pandemic there was a Japanese group holding classes there as well. And of course, as I mentioned, Sanda, both kids and an adult class
I should say that I have made exceptions for teens, but only if the parent trains with them, I’m not interested in babysitting. Nothing wrong with training kids, I just don’t want to.
 
Actually a lot of space for kids if you are teaching modern wushu. A friend of mine has a CMA school and has a group of kids that he teaches the various form, he also teaches Sanda as well. He (not Chinese) spent several years training in China and is also very good at, and loves, what he does. He is, IMO, a martial artist to the core. He has trained multiple styles, Modern Wushu, Taijiquan, Sanda, BJJ, MMA, JKD, Kyokushin, etc. However I don't believe he is doing this to make anything more effective, he has done it, and does it, because he absolutely loves martial arts. He probably has the biggest CMA school in my area, but still considerably smaller than virtual any TKD school you can find. He loves what he does and is a very positive influence to the kids that train with him. And he does had a standard that he adheres to. It is likely the difficulty of the forms and that standard that keeps his school at the size it is. Also, his school appears to be the one where the Chinese community sends their kids. But with that said he also has a JKD group there, and pre pandemic there was a Japanese group holding classes there as well. And of course, as I mentioned, Sanda, both kids and an adult class
I suppose I could have a very large kids class if all the parents that have asked me about it actually brought their kids, personally that sounds like the third layer of hell. Maybe It’s because there were never children in the gym when I was training, my teachers did not teach kids either.
 
While I enjoy reading others posts, no one is addressing the issue.
Is it possible to run a large successful business and still maintain standards? The answer is yes. I feel quality is an absolute necessity if you want to be a larger school with any kind of longevity.
The problem is that there are three aspects.
1, it's a business. Run it as such. Most MA guys don't know a darn thing about doing that.
2, are you a good martial artist that meets the community standards that qualify as " good" everyone thinks they are good. Chances are more likely your not.
3, teaching and doing are TOTALY separate issues. Teaching is a skill and needs to be honed and refined. Teaching a single person or small group is very different than teaching a large group and teaching a large school is even more difficult. You can't do it by yourself. Which brings us back to #1. It's a business.

So going back to the question. yes it can be done, but the odds are stacked against you. I would also add that 1 out of 10 people will ever be any good at martial arts. So increasing the sample size decreases the percentage of those who will excel. The challenge then becomes how to grow a core group with a lot of fringes.
Much of what you say here makes sense. Teaching is not doing. I never had intention to teach, it means you train more alone and that means missing out on some of the group dynamic. I am lucky that most of the guys I came up with are supportive and come to my class even though they are every bit my equals. That there are at least 7 of us that are qualified and able to teach. All of us are around 50 years old and have professional jobs and some have kids. We never have had a business sense about the training, the goal always being to train as much and as hard as possible. We barely broke even most months. The standards are very high. The culture of our gym has always been centered on striving for maximum personal potential. I have said before that if we couldn’t afford dues, the Sifu had us work at his house mucking out horse stalls and the like In exchange for training. That, by any standard, is not a lucrative business model. I have always felt that students received the very highest standard in training, for the very lowest amount of money. The only thing you said that I disagree with is that 1 in 10 people become skilled. I would say it’s more like 1 in 40.
 
I suppose I could have a very large kids class if all the parents that have asked me about it actually brought their kids, personally that sounds like the third layer of hell. Maybe It’s because there were never children in the gym when I was training, my teachers did not teach kids either.

1972, Japanese Jujutsu, kids class. We spared, we threw each other on the floor, we got hurst. No mats, no protective gear and fencing foils and fencing masks covered on entire wall.

Can't teach that was these days, but you can have a kids class that is not baby sitting. But you will not have the numbers you see at many TKD schools
 
While I enjoy reading others posts, no one is addressing the issue.
Is it possible to run a large successful business and still maintain standards? The answer is yes. I feel quality is an absolute necessity if you want to be a larger school with any kind of longevity.
The problem is that there are three aspects.
1, it's a business. Run it as such. Most MA guys don't know a darn thing about doing that.
2, are you a good martial artist that meets the community standards that qualify as " good" everyone thinks they are good. Chances are more likely your not.
3, teaching and doing are TOTALY separate issues. Teaching is a skill and needs to be honed and refined. Teaching a single person or small group is very different than teaching a large group and teaching a large school is even more difficult. You can't do it by yourself. Which brings us back to #1. It's a business.

So going back to the question. yes it can be done, but the odds are stacked against you. I would also add that 1 out of 10 people will ever be any good at martial arts. So increasing the sample size decreases the percentage of those who will excel. The challenge then becomes how to grow a core group with a lot of fringes.

I bet there are some bigger kyokashin schools that turn out quality guys.
 
One question people need to ask is why do some schools hand out belts like a participation award.
I feel the answer is because they are weak in the three criteria I laid out.
As a business you need to provide a value to your customer. If you lack that, I can see trying to keep students through belts.
School owners are afraid to lose students because they lack other value in their business model. This is the equivalent as a retailer constantly putting everything on sale and trying to be the lowest price. Low price was the Walmart model but good luck trying to sell lower than Walmart. Low price is a race to the bottom. Handing out belts faster than anyone else is not a winning strategy. It just means your a weak business owner. Provide other services of value. One local dojo has a small bus that picks up kids at their school. This allows earlier class schedule / = more classes per day and parents like the convenience. Have good customer service.
My son did judo for a time. It's a large school and the service is horrible. The desk person is incompetent and the 8 to 11 yo class has about 30 kids. They did have 3 or 4 instructors for the class which is good but even after 3 months the teachers didn't know half of the kids names. The assistants didn't really know how to teach. New students were just put into the normal class and expected to just know what was going on. Never shown how to break fall or roll, how to tie the belt nothing. Sign up , pay money and get in line for class.
As a side note this is a quality school with high standards and everyone in the city knows that. But if you can't keep up you fall out and the owner doesn't care.
He only stays afloat and is a large school because MMA is so popular and most don't know any better, and they teach judo, mma and bjj.
 
I bet there are some bigger kyokashin schools that turn out quality guys.
There are good schools all over. I grew up doing Uechi and there are many large schools. Some schools during the 90's had 800 students. But that's not normal. Its rare.
My point is that most businesses go out of buisness in the first year most others within 5 years. Why would MA schools be any different?
Most last because the owners do it out of passion and put more money into it than they get out.
 

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