Best entry to a takedown

[JDenz]

What do you guys think. What do you guys do to enter in on a shot in no-gi or wrestling? How do you change your game according to what you are doing?

 

[jlhenry]

I have always been a big fan of getting a tie up head snapping them to get a foot forward then ankle picking. Other than that I like to circle and push their head to the side with my back arm(so I can guard my lead leg). Eventually they get sick of it and try to knock the hand away leaving that leg open for a quick single leg. These are prob. both things you already know but they work for me and if it isn't broke I'm not gonna fix it.

 

[Jay Bell]

Walk.

 

[JDenz]

I always try bumps to get the arm out of the way or use tie ups to get past the arms (budles, snaps, Drags, passbys)

 

[J-kid]

Depends what the other person is doing and what you feel is the best move.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by JDenz
What do you guys think. What do you guys do to enter in on a shot in no-gi or wrestling? How do you change your game according to what you are doing?

If you're asking about creating an opening to shoot in, then no gi = no handles. All of my training revolves around controlling my opponent and I lean towards "powering through" him as well.

If he's looking for me to shoot and no striking is involved and we are close enough, I will try to take control of his wrists. If he's thinking about his wrists or trying to free his wrists then I can step in with my right leg and drop my left knee low to the ground (I lead a lot with my right) and go for whichever leg is available or both.

When you are "controlling" or "distracting" you're opponent, his feet as well as yours can be almost anywhere, so its not set in stone. Its just a feeling from a lot of free style randori.

I like to control the neck as well.

If we are at a bit of a distance, it depends if he's aware that I'm going to shoot or not. I have Gung-Fu hands so I like to slip my opponents arms (like a boxers slip) probably using my left hand pushing his right arm upwards while my right arm raps around his body as low as possible.

If my right arm gets anywhere near his hips, I should be able to get my left arm around his right leg and take him off of his feet, lifting him high with power to negate the resistance. And it does not let him defend with a sprawl like in a regular shoot defense.. :asian:

 

[JDenz]

How does the shot you described negate the sprawl. What it sounds like you are saying is you are using a pee wee arm bump to a single with your head on the outside.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by JDenz
How does the shot you described negate the sprawl. What it sounds like you are saying is you are using a pee wee arm bump to a single with your head on the outside.

I don't know the wrestling terminology but it'll be to late to sprawl. His energy will going upward. Yes the head is on the outside and for something like that I would put the emphasis on the upward motion. Higher is better.

The higher he goes, the harder for him defend or fall into a desirable position and the harder he will fall. If you take him straight down he's more likely to "land well", I just like to do things that fit me.

But you could be in trouble trying to power through a bigger opponent.

I'm not a master grappler but I have few techniques.

 

[JDenz]

It isn't to late to sprawl there. Not only that but if you are pushing the arm out of the way with across his body it seems like you would be open to a pull by or a shuck, or a host of other things. Not that it is a bad set up or anything just wondering. Also about sprawling I don't see how it would be hard to sprawl on that entry I mean after you have the leg up and are driving in but a guy should be sprawling before you even reach his leg unless your set up is good.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by JDenz
It isn't to late to sprawl there. Not only that but if you are pushing the arm out of the way with across his body it seems like you would be open to a pull by or a shuck, or a host of other things. Not that it is a bad set up or anything just wondering. Also about sprawling I don't see how it would be hard to sprawl on that entry I mean after you have the leg up and are driving in but a guy should be sprawling before you even reach his leg unless your set up is good.

Yes you're right, it could arguably never be to late to sprawl. But I would be pushing his right arm "upward" (not to the side, upward gives more of an edge than just going straightdown) and attempting to drive him "upward" off of his feet before driving down. Off his feet, it limits the defense and limits the possibilities of his falling positions. If I was being lifted off of my feet, I would be forced to try to fall in my guard. that would be a natural response for me.

Of course you could be pulled. Thats grappling. Grappling is in close and everthing has a counter and theres always going to be better way.

What I describe is how I flow and what will transition well with my standup. Actually I like to practice in the clinch so that I can work into "whatever" direction a fight takes me.

Not sure what schuck is?

I'm taking some new pictures with my students so that I can display some better techiniques to represent how we train on my site. It takes a little time though becuase you go through a lot of film trying to catch the right positions instead of just posing like I have there now. You'll get a better idea from some pics.

I've trained my pure matwork but now I always think both standup and ground. I can't help it I'm cursed.

 

[JDenz]

I have wrestled most of my life and the rest of the time I just wasted. I have been doing submisison grappling for a while as well. I wrestled Pee-Wee, highschool, collage and now I coach the kids. I understand what you are saying I think. I get what you are saying now alot of the guys I grapple with pull guard when they are in trouble to. I kida don't like that for two reasons. One if I am in a sport match I am going to lose points in most organizations. Not a big deal if your guard is good unless you get someone like me that scores and stalls. @ I wouldn't want to be in the street on bottom. If someone got in I would sprall and strike. Although for this thread I was strikley speaking no striking.

 

[JDenz]

A shuck is pretty much a duck under without a level change. Anytime that you pass a guy by his arm on the mat or standing. I am sure you have seen it and probley call it something else. Rereading my posts I sound like a Dick but I don't mean it like that. I am just trying to get open discussion going. I was trying to see if anyone had idea's for my game. Everyone I roll with now don't engage on the feet they run away lol. I was just trying to come up with a few new setups.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by JDenz
A shuck is pretty much a duck under without a level change. Anytime that you pass a guy by his arm on the mat or standing. I am sure you have seen it and probley call it something else. Rereading my posts I sound like a Dick but I don't mean it like that. I am just trying to get open discussion going. I was trying to see if anyone had idea's for my game. Everyone I roll with now don't engage on the feet they run away lol. I was just trying to come up with a few new setups.

A schuck sounds like something I would use, maybe in my own way.

I probably would wrap my legs when my feet are off of the ground and then try to fall into a better position, maybe roll onto my side and push out or just snake into a better position.

Also I don't hear a dick, I hear someone than knows his wrestling. Actually I prefer to see the holes in my technique, thats how you fix them.

Hope this thread keeps going, we need more technique discusion and less caca. :asian:

 

[JDenz]

well I see what you are saying turing it into a guard pull/armlock attempt. that is the start of a shuck, the finish part you are at the side or behind the guy. The problem with having good takedowns and throws is it is real easy to nutralize.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by JDenz
well I see what you are saying turing it into a guard pull/armlock attempt. that is the start of a shuck, the finish part you are at the side or behind the guy. The problem with having good takedowns and throws is it is real easy to nutralize.

Thats it right there. I'm good at nuetralizing my opponents. I quit BJJ about a year ago when I realized that there wasn't anything that they could throw at me that I couldn't stop and impose my will.

Thats why I'm taking my art deeper now. For instance, if someone attempts a shoot and I successfully stop the shoot. What position or range are we in? "My range", the clinch, which I like to work from! :asian:

 

[JDenz]

Well I think I ca take down alot of people from a clinch and I have good knees from the clinch as well. I am just saying having good takedowns in grappling is a little over rated.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by JDenz
Well I think I ca take down alot of people from a clinch and I have good knees from the clinch as well. I am just saying having good takedowns in grappling is a little over rated.

There is no single technique or single range that is superior. what is great for me is possibly what your best at taking advantage of.

Also, the brazilians can't trashed because they "supposedly" have weak takedowns. But their response is, "no problem, we're going to end up on the ground anyway and thats my world."

Just like theres always a counter to every technique, theres always another view to fighting altogether.

I only have a few takedowns that I really like. I mostly concentrate on the techniques that evolve around the takedown.:asian:

 

[JDenz]

Well I wrestled all my life and without my glasses on I can barley see. So fighting in close works the best for me. There are not to many fighters or martial artests as good at takedowns as me or controlling the clinch. (In my experaince guys good at fighting in close are suckers for takedowns, In streetfights mostly they are looking to do alot of damage quick and don't keep a solid base.) And if they are better wrestlers I think that I have better submissions and striking then a pure wrestler at that level. But I am mostly training for sport grappling contests, and wrestling.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by JDenz
Well I wrestled all my life and without my glasses on I can barley see. So fighting in close works the best for me. There are not to many fighters or martial artests as good at takedowns as me or controlling the clinch. (In my experaince guys good at fighting in close are suckers for takedowns, In streetfights mostly they are looking to do alot of damage quick and don't keep a solid base.) And if they are better wrestlers I think that I have better submissions and striking then a pure wrestler at that level. But I am mostly training for sport grappling contests, and wrestling.

I don't know what I would classify myself in there.

But when I mentioned I quit BJJ because there was not anything that they could throw at me that I couldn't stop, part of the reason was because I am a standup fighter and they did not really understand the standup game.

It definately wasn't because I was that great in grappling. I am a good grappler. I'mm good enough to stop most attacks, but it depends on the rules.

I do want to go deeper into submission training and I'm hoping my students understand the importance of grappling as I do so that this philoshiphy of mine will not die out.

 

[J-kid]

Well I like to use a mix of diffrent takedowns depending on what my opponent leaves open, if he is standing real tall and straight and is taller then me then i will usally look as if i am going for a upper body throw. Use a distraction (like clap infront of there face) then shoot and it works really well or i get a bear hug and hook the leg.

If the person likes to fight bent over i will usally go for a throw being from Wrestling,Judo, or Bjj. I like fighting on the ground alot but my stand-up is pritty good, my stance is a mix between a wrestler stance/boxing stance/escrima stance. It seems to work pritty good over all.

I find my sprawl/anti take down is real strong, I find when i use Judo/BJJ/Wrestling together it makes my grappling great. At my last Judo Tournement I armbared one guy and almost another, and then people avoided going to the ground with me at all costs it was fun tournment. It was the North West High School Championship. I only placed 3rd, the guy who got 1st beat me in over time with a small point and then I had to go threw 2 other guys to fight the guy who was in second and i lost to him at the end with a full throw. I will rematch this guy from Finland next tournment i was kind of tired by the time i got to him after 6-7 matchs. I also took on what seemed to be 2 wrestlers and won they shot in so many times but i was able to sprawl and use other anti take downs on them and threw them both infact i shot in on them and was able to take him down with a single leg.

Any how i havent been training as hard as before but now i am gonna kick it up and i will make sure to go every day. Since i train at to diffrent gyms i will have to work hard. I have still learning alot of wrestling from the trainers and from other friends i know who are really great wrestlers. I figure if i pick up the pace real hard i will be ready for nationals in new mexico and florida. I also plan on starting MT kickboxing back up again, but for now i have my hads full with school and the grappling. My esrima is slowly getting better all the time so thats also a plus. I am hoping by next year i will have competed in a full contact mixed martial art tournment. O yeah forgot to mention i am gonna be going into some submission tournements soon. That should be fun alot of fun.

Anyone else doing any grappling tournments?
If so where and when?