Beginning again late in life

[Unkogami]

By most students. Any art that cannot adapt to the weaker defeating the stronger is a waste of time. The body has disabling and lethal target that a child has the strength to exploit. Proficiency based on outcome is the only standard that makes sense. Otherwise, all the training is wasted. Read books by people like Rory Miller, Tim Larkin and Varg Freeborn. One of Larkin's students was a small college girl who only took a three hour seminar with Larkin. She later killed a serial rapist who attacked her and was much larger than her. She broke his neck with her bare hands. Nancy Wake, "The White Mouse" spy against the Nazis was taught the Fairbarin-Sykes H2H system and she later killed a German officer with one chop to the neck.

If you are satisfied with "proficiency" meaning anything less, that is your call. For me, it puts into question all your other statements about effectiveness of a martial art.

You're not being realistic. For me, it puts into question all your other statements about the reality of conflict outside of a gym or a dojo.

 

[Unkogami]

Thing is, if you're boxing and sparring with your peers, then you're punching skinny people, fat people, short people, tall people, and learning how to adjust your game accordingly. So someone studying boxing is consistently applying their knowledge towards a practical outcome. Hence why so many people who take up boxing actually learn how to fight and apply it in a self defense scenario.
.....

Sure, but you must know that even people who train combat arts for decades may not get much better than a certain level. Just doing something long enough - no matter what it is - does not mean you will become very good at it. This is not a disparagement of any art, system, or practice. It is just life.

 

[Unkogami]

....Proficiency based on outcome is the only standard that makes sense.

By that standard any training is necessarily limited at best.

 

[jmf552]

You're not being realistic. For me, it puts into question all your other statements about the reality of conflict outside of a gym or a dojo.

Question it all you want. I have given your references and real world examples. And there are more where that came from. Do you have any better facts or references?

If someone attacks you and you do not prevail, it doesn't matter how "realistic" you think it is. Your training is a failure from an SD perspective. That is not an opinion, it is an obvious fact. If you read about real violence, most deadly attackers will be some combination of bigger, faster and stronger and have more experience with violence than you do. He will also take you by surprise, follow no rules and have no conscience. He will kill or maim you if he feels he needs to. That is the threat, not the guy you do push hands with.

If someone, anyone can't get a positive outcome in that situation, tell me, what is their training worth in terms of self defense? You tell me.

 

[Unkogami]

By most students. Any art that cannot adapt to the weaker defeating the stronger is a waste of time. The body has disabling and lethal target that a child has the strength to exploit. .....

Comments like that are why so many people with no experience in any art do not take martial arts seriously.

 

[Hanzou]

Sure, but you must know that even people who train combat arts for decades may not get much better than a certain level. Just doing something long enough - no matter what it is - does not mean you will become very good at it. This is not a disparagement of any art, system, or practice. It is just life.

But in certain arts you'll realize that by sparring with your peers. If you're capable of slipping, dodging, and knocking out a trained fighter/boxer, you should have an advantage against some untrained clown trying to punch you in the face.

 

[Unkogami]

......

If someone, anyone can't get a positive outcome in that situation, tell me, what is their training worth in terms of self defense? You tell me.

It gives someone a much better chance, but does NOT guarantee any particular outcome. Anyone with real world experience knows that.

 

[Unkogami]

But in certain arts you'll realize that by sparring with your peers. If you're capable of slipping, dodging, and knocking out a trained fighter/boxer, you should have an advantage against some untrained clown trying to punch you in the face.

One would hope, and most of the time so, but no guarantees.

 

[Unkogami]

....

If someone attacks you and you do not prevail, it doesn't matter how "realistic" you think it is. Your training is a failure from an SD perspective. .....

So every heavy weight boxer other than the heavy weight champion of the world is a "failure," and boxing itself is a "failure"?

 

[jmf552]

By that standard any training is necessarily limited at best.

Disagree. It depends on the training. The Fairbairn-Sykes method taught to the OSS and the SOE is devastating. In a few weeks training, small people have learned to kill with their bare hands. They can do things traditional martial artists can't do after decades of training. Miller's "Meditations on Violence" explains why this is in detail.

 

[Unkogami]

.... If you read about real violence, ....

Some people experience real violence rather than just reading about it.

 

[Unkogami]

Disagree. It depends on the training. The Fairbairn-Sykes method taught to the OSS and the SOE is devastating. In a few weeks training, small people have learned to kill with their bare hands. They can do things traditional martial artists can't do after decades of training. Miller's "Meditations on Violence" explains why this is in detail.

No offense, but you are starting to sound more and more like a comic book boy.

 

[jmf552]

So every heavy weight boxer other than the heavy weight champion of the world is a "failure," and boxing itself is a "failure"?

This is a big myth martial artists have. You are talking about sport contest fighting. That is a whole different deal. Those guys have to train for years and are superb athletes. They can go 12 rounds with other superb athletes. They are all amazing.

I am talking about street defense. Fights only last seconds. Outcomes can mean life or death. There is one winner and one loser. The loser has failed. How do you see it any other way?

 

[jmf552]

No offense, but you are starting to sound more and more like a comic book boy.

Ad hominem argument. The refuge of people who have lost an argument, for lack of facts and logic. Yawn...

 

[Unkogami]

This is a big myth martial artists have. You are talking about sport contest fighting. That is a whole different deal. ....

No, it's not.

 

[jmf552]

But in certain arts you'll realize that by sparring with your peers. If you're capable of slipping, dodging, and knocking out a trained fighter/boxer, you should have an advantage against some untrained clown trying to punch you in the face.

With all due respect, I would present a counter point to that. Those references I cited, of people who train people who have to deal with violence professionally, all seem to agree your greatest threat is a vicious criminal who has never spent any time training in martial arts. Their dojo has been the street. Their only "promotion" is surviving. They have not studied fighting, They have studied killing and maiming. They will not fight you. They will just hurt you.

 

[jmf552]

No, it's not.

I see that I have to ignore you. Goodbye.

 

[Unkogami]

...... In a few weeks training, small people have learned to kill with their bare hands. ......

Comments like that are irresponsible.

 

[Unkogami]

.....Those references I cited, .....

I didn't see any links to any factual information. I don't need to read stories.

 

[Hanzou]

One would hope, and most of the time so, but no guarantees.

If your goal is to be a superhuman that is incapable of being hurt or killed, you're living in a fantasy world. In the real world, a martial art can only give you an edge if you've applied it to a variety of opponents in an atmosphere of full pressure and contact.