Be careful

[DocWard]

As I said before it wasn't a choke

You also said "I'm not saying he's (the instructor)innocent as I have no idea," and "we don't have all the details of what happened."

Suffice it to say, I'm using the term "choke" in a generic shorthand sense, to mean any technique that serves to occlude the carotid artery, which I suspect would be the typical cause of such as stroke.

I believe that, by definition, pedantic means being overly concerned with formality or accuracy to the point of missing the relevance of the actual point being made, to wit, that there needs to be more education about the possible risks of carotid occlusion, hemodynamic strokes as a result, and more.

 

[Headhunter]

You also said "I'm not saying he's (the instructor)innocent as I have no idea," and "we don't have all the details of what happened."

Suffice it to say, I'm using the term "choke" in a generic shorthand sense, to mean any technique that serves to occlude the carotid artery, which I suspect would be the typical cause of such as stroke.

I believe that, by definition, pedantic means being overly concerned with formality or accuracy to the point of missing the relevance of the actual point being made, to wit, that there needs to be more education about the possible risks of carotid occlusion, hemodynamic strokes as a result, and more.

The op says he was using a clinch so that's not a choke

 

[DocWard]

The op says he was using a clinch so that's not a choke

Is it likely the "clinch," in which the instructor "proceeded to drag him around the room by the neck," occluded the carotid artery? If so, is it possible said occlusion result in the stroke? If so, then feel free to call it a ham sandwich, the point being that there needs to be more education regarding the dangers.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Is it likely the "clinch," in which the instructor "proceeded to drag him around the room by the neck," occluded the carotid artery? If so, is it possible said occlusion result in the stroke? If so, then feel free to call it a ham sandwich, the point being that there needs to be more education regarding the dangers.

I would expect every instructor to need a decent level first aid cert to teach and by extension that should at least give some insight into what you should and should not do. Pretty annoying never the less.

(and yes i know there are different levels and providers for first aid and they are semi tailored to the environment, ie forestry focused ones put a focus on forestry related things/spend extra time covering that along side the rest of the cirrculem you will find elsewhere at a similar level)

 

[DocWard]

I would expect every instructor to need a decent level first aid cert to teach and by extension that should at least give some insight into what you should and should not do. Pretty annoying never the less.

(and yes i know there are different levels and providers for first aid and they are semi tailored to the environment, ie forestry focused ones put a focus on forestry related things/spend extra time covering that along side the rest of the cirrculem you will find elsewhere at a similar level)

You're right, I would expect instructors to have some first aid certification. Most elementary First Aid certifications I am aware of teach basic ABCDE (Airway, Breathing, Circulation, Disability, Exposure) concepts. This includes CPR, controlling bleeding, and recognizing altered levels of consciousness. This last is what is relevant here. Unfortunately, most first aid training that I've seen doesn't go in depth as to what the causes are, only how to recognize and treat them at a first response level. I would be somewhat surprised to see training at the basic level about what we as individuals can do that are dangerous so that we may avoid them. It would be a good thing to have, particularly in a "focused" certification course such as you mention.

 

[drop bear]

The op says he was using a clinch so that's not a choke

I had a bit of a looky loo.

And apparently you can cause strokes from just neck manipulation.

Chiropractic movements can do them.
Stroke Risk Associated With Aggressive Chiropractic Neck Adjustments

 

[DocWard]

I had a bit of a looky loo.

And apparently you can cause strokes from just neck manipulation.

Chiropractic movements can do them.
Stroke Risk Associated With Aggressive Chiropractic Neck Adjustments

I hadn't even thought of dissection through rapid movement.

 

[DocWard]

I did a quick google search for "krav maga clinches" and the first thing that popped up was this video.

It struck me that with the clinch he is using at the fifteen second mark, that if you leverage, or scissor your arms together enough, you have what would seem to be a blood choke.

 

[Prostar]

I saw this version of it. I like the first thing the instructor says about it on Youtube.

Your skills are much better than mine when it comes to attachments. However it works with a little cut and paste.

 

[DocWard]

Your skills are much better than mine when it comes to attachments. However it works with a little cut and paste.

Nope, I do it the same way. Highlight the url and copy and then paste it in the reply window.

 

[ProtectYourNeck]

Fellas. I’m the guy the OP wrote about. He’s my dad.

I was injured October 15th of last year. I was 38 years old at the time. I learned to walk in my dad’s TKD classes and have spent most of my life in or around martial arts. I also worked as a bouncer for several years in my early thirties. I’m no stranger to physical altercations. I had no prior medical conditions.

I took a lengthy hiatus from training through my thirties and decided to get back into martial arts last summer. I chose a local Krav school because I liked the practicality of that style.

I got hurt training Thai clinches, what that school was calling “center head control”. Something we’d done many many times before. I was working with a beginner student when an assistant instructor cut in to “show him how to do it right”. He used me to demo the clench, locking in with his forearms full strength and jerking me back and forth in aggressive 180 degree arcs to show that “where the head goes, the body follows”.

I knew that this particular guy, one of the schools TKD black belts, liked to play a little too hard. This was well known. So I took precautions and gripped his firearms tightly to take pressure off my neck, and I went with the power. However, the damage was done in seconds. We all regrouped a few minutes later to move on with the next thing in class, but I couldn’t stand up straight.

I tried to make it to a chair, but I couldn't keep from listing hard diagonally to one side. This was because I was having a stroke and the part of my brain that controls balance was dying. Puked a lot, called an ambulance, and really went down in earnest on my way to the ER.

I was in the neuro ICU for a week, the hospital for another week. I got very very lucky, and have had very few complications.

The clinch and rapid lateral movement dissected both my vertebral arteries. This cause full occlusion on both sides. The stroke hit my cerebellum. I recently talked to an ER doc before having a CT scan and she said I should be dead. She’d never seen someone survive a bilateral dissection and not end up a vegetable. She joked someone should be writing it up.

I am very very lucky. The doctors don’t really know how to talk to me about what my new normal will be because most people have a much worse outcome than I did, I took blood thinners, and neuro pain meds for 6 months. After a good CT scan, I spent a month coming off all those meds, and the withdrawals were no joke.

As of today, I have lingering mental and emotional side effects. My temper is much shorter than it was, I get tired and confused more easily. I’ve gained a bunch of weight due to the drugs and inactivity. I’ve had headaches every single day, pretty much al day since the stroke, but nothing like the first few months. My left/right coordination sucks, and I can’t shake my head without feeling out of it for a few hours.

Docs say I’ll never train martial arts again. And I agree. I have two kids. It’s not worth the risk. I’m starting to work out again, walking, light weights, but it’s slow going.

I had a lawyer look into legal action against the school for gross negligence. No one should be practicing those techniques full power. And no one there had any idea this injury was possible. There was a good case. But the owner of the school had let his ATA affiliation lapse and was running without insurance. He sold the school and moved to Europe. The lawyer dropped my cause due to no hope of recovering anything from a winning judgement.

Now I’ve got a stack of medical bills, and a life altering medical condition.

What I want you guys to take away from this, is protect your neck. It can happen in the blink of an eye. fifteen seconds permanently changed my life, my family’s lives. You are not indestructible. So much can go wrong in your head and neck. Never let anyone jerk your neck or head around at speed and with power. Don’t reply and tell me how you’re the one dude who knows how to do it and not get hurt. I was that guy too.

At any rate, that’s the whole story for those that are interested.

 

[JR 137]

Fellas. I’m the guy the OP wrote about. He’s my dad.

I was injured October 15th of last year. I was 38 years old at the time. I learned to walk in my dad’s TKD classes and have spent most of my life in or around martial arts. I also worked as a bouncer for several years in my early thirties. I’m no stranger to physical altercations. I had no prior medical conditions.

I took a lengthy hiatus from training through my thirties and decided to get back into martial arts last summer. I chose a local Krav school because I liked the practicality of that style.

I got hurt training Thai clinches, what that school was calling “center head control”. Something we’d done many many times before. I was working with a beginner student when an assistant instructor cut in to “show him how to do it right”. He used me to demo the clench, locking in with his forearms full strength and jerking me back and forth in aggressive 180 degree arcs to show that “where the head goes, the body follows”.

I knew that this particular guy, one of the schools TKD black belts, liked to play a little too hard. This was well known. So I took precautions and gripped his firearms tightly to take pressure off my neck, and I went with the power. However, the damage was done in seconds. We all regrouped a few minutes later to move on with the next thing in class, but I couldn’t stand up straight.

I tried to make it to a chair, but I couldn't keep from listing hard diagonally to one side. This was because I was having a stroke and the part of my brain that controls balance was dying. Puked a lot, called an ambulance, and really went down in earnest on my way to the ER.

I was in the neuro ICU for a week, the hospital for another week. I got very very lucky, and have had very few complications.

The clinch and rapid lateral movement dissected both my vertebral arteries. This cause full occlusion on both sides. The stroke hit my cerebellum. I recently talked to an ER doc before having a CT scan and she said I should be dead. She’d never seen someone survive a bilateral dissection and not end up a vegetable. She joked someone should be writing it up.

I am very very lucky. The doctors don’t really know how to talk to me about what my new normal will be because most people have a much worse outcome than I did, I took blood thinners, and neuro pain meds for 6 months. After a good CT scan, I spent a month coming off all those meds, and the withdrawals were no joke.

As of today, I have lingering mental and emotional side effects. My temper is much shorter than it was, I get tired and confused more easily. I’ve gained a bunch of weight due to the drugs and inactivity. I’ve had headaches every single day, pretty much al day since the stroke, but nothing like the first few months. My left/right coordination sucks, and I can’t shake my head without feeling out of it for a few hours.

Docs say I’ll never train martial arts again. And I agree. I have two kids. It’s not worth the risk. I’m starting to work out again, walking, light weights, but it’s slow going.

I had a lawyer look into legal action against the school for gross negligence. No one should be practicing those techniques full power. And no one there had any idea this injury was possible. There was a good case. But the owner of the school had let his ATA affiliation lapse and was running without insurance. He sold the school and moved to Europe. The lawyer dropped my cause due to no hope of recovering anything from a winning judgement.

Now I’ve got a stack of medical bills, and a life altering medical condition.

What I want you guys to take away from this, is protect your neck. It can happen in the blink of an eye. fifteen seconds permanently changed my life, my family’s lives. You are not indestructible. So much can go wrong in your head and neck. Never let anyone jerk your neck or head around at speed and with power. Don’t reply and tell me how you’re the one dude who knows how to do it and not get hurt. I was that guy too.

At any rate, that’s the whole story for those that are interested.

Thank you for sharing this.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Fellas. I’m the guy the OP wrote about. He’s my dad.

I was injured October 15th of last year. I was 38 years old at the time. I learned to walk in my dad’s TKD classes and have spent most of my life in or around martial arts. I also worked as a bouncer for several years in my early thirties. I’m no stranger to physical altercations. I had no prior medical conditions.

I took a lengthy hiatus from training through my thirties and decided to get back into martial arts last summer. I chose a local Krav school because I liked the practicality of that style.

I got hurt training Thai clinches, what that school was calling “center head control”. Something we’d done many many times before. I was working with a beginner student when an assistant instructor cut in to “show him how to do it right”. He used me to demo the clench, locking in with his forearms full strength and jerking me back and forth in aggressive 180 degree arcs to show that “where the head goes, the body follows”.

I knew that this particular guy, one of the schools TKD black belts, liked to play a little too hard. This was well known. So I took precautions and gripped his firearms tightly to take pressure off my neck, and I went with the power. However, the damage was done in seconds. We all regrouped a few minutes later to move on with the next thing in class, but I couldn’t stand up straight.

I tried to make it to a chair, but I couldn't keep from listing hard diagonally to one side. This was because I was having a stroke and the part of my brain that controls balance was dying. Puked a lot, called an ambulance, and really went down in earnest on my way to the ER.

I was in the neuro ICU for a week, the hospital for another week. I got very very lucky, and have had very few complications.

The clinch and rapid lateral movement dissected both my vertebral arteries. This cause full occlusion on both sides. The stroke hit my cerebellum. I recently talked to an ER doc before having a CT scan and she said I should be dead. She’d never seen someone survive a bilateral dissection and not end up a vegetable. She joked someone should be writing it up.

I am very very lucky. The doctors don’t really know how to talk to me about what my new normal will be because most people have a much worse outcome than I did, I took blood thinners, and neuro pain meds for 6 months. After a good CT scan, I spent a month coming off all those meds, and the withdrawals were no joke.

As of today, I have lingering mental and emotional side effects. My temper is much shorter than it was, I get tired and confused more easily. I’ve gained a bunch of weight due to the drugs and inactivity. I’ve had headaches every single day, pretty much al day since the stroke, but nothing like the first few months. My left/right coordination sucks, and I can’t shake my head without feeling out of it for a few hours.

Docs say I’ll never train martial arts again. And I agree. I have two kids. It’s not worth the risk. I’m starting to work out again, walking, light weights, but it’s slow going.

I had a lawyer look into legal action against the school for gross negligence. No one should be practicing those techniques full power. And no one there had any idea this injury was possible. There was a good case. But the owner of the school had let his ATA affiliation lapse and was running without insurance. He sold the school and moved to Europe. The lawyer dropped my cause due to no hope of recovering anything from a winning judgement.

Now I’ve got a stack of medical bills, and a life altering medical condition.

What I want you guys to take away from this, is protect your neck. It can happen in the blink of an eye. fifteen seconds permanently changed my life, my family’s lives. You are not indestructible. So much can go wrong in your head and neck. Never let anyone jerk your neck or head around at speed and with power. Don’t reply and tell me how you’re the one dude who knows how to do it and not get hurt. I was that guy too.

At any rate, that’s the whole story for those that are interested.

Thanks for taking the time to tell us your story. I hope you keep beating the odds. Good luck !

 

[ShortBridge]

I am sorry for your trouble, but thank you for sharing your story with us.

 

[Buka]

My God.

Thank you.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Fellas. I’m the guy the OP wrote about. He’s my dad.

I was injured October 15th of last year. I was 38 years old at the time. I learned to walk in my dad’s TKD classes and have spent most of my life in or around martial arts. I also worked as a bouncer for several years in my early thirties. I’m no stranger to physical altercations. I had no prior medical conditions.

I took a lengthy hiatus from training through my thirties and decided to get back into martial arts last summer. I chose a local Krav school because I liked the practicality of that style.

I got hurt training Thai clinches, what that school was calling “center head control”. Something we’d done many many times before. I was working with a beginner student when an assistant instructor cut in to “show him how to do it right”. He used me to demo the clench, locking in with his forearms full strength and jerking me back and forth in aggressive 180 degree arcs to show that “where the head goes, the body follows”.

I knew that this particular guy, one of the schools TKD black belts, liked to play a little too hard. This was well known. So I took precautions and gripped his firearms tightly to take pressure off my neck, and I went with the power. However, the damage was done in seconds. We all regrouped a few minutes later to move on with the next thing in class, but I couldn’t stand up straight.

I tried to make it to a chair, but I couldn't keep from listing hard diagonally to one side. This was because I was having a stroke and the part of my brain that controls balance was dying. Puked a lot, called an ambulance, and really went down in earnest on my way to the ER.

I was in the neuro ICU for a week, the hospital for another week. I got very very lucky, and have had very few complications.

The clinch and rapid lateral movement dissected both my vertebral arteries. This cause full occlusion on both sides. The stroke hit my cerebellum. I recently talked to an ER doc before having a CT scan and she said I should be dead. She’d never seen someone survive a bilateral dissection and not end up a vegetable. She joked someone should be writing it up.

I am very very lucky. The doctors don’t really know how to talk to me about what my new normal will be because most people have a much worse outcome than I did, I took blood thinners, and neuro pain meds for 6 months. After a good CT scan, I spent a month coming off all those meds, and the withdrawals were no joke.

As of today, I have lingering mental and emotional side effects. My temper is much shorter than it was, I get tired and confused more easily. I’ve gained a bunch of weight due to the drugs and inactivity. I’ve had headaches every single day, pretty much al day since the stroke, but nothing like the first few months. My left/right coordination sucks, and I can’t shake my head without feeling out of it for a few hours.

Docs say I’ll never train martial arts again. And I agree. I have two kids. It’s not worth the risk. I’m starting to work out again, walking, light weights, but it’s slow going.

I had a lawyer look into legal action against the school for gross negligence. No one should be practicing those techniques full power. And no one there had any idea this injury was possible. There was a good case. But the owner of the school had let his ATA affiliation lapse and was running without insurance. He sold the school and moved to Europe. The lawyer dropped my cause due to no hope of recovering anything from a winning judgement.

Now I’ve got a stack of medical bills, and a life altering medical condition.

What I want you guys to take away from this, is protect your neck. It can happen in the blink of an eye. fifteen seconds permanently changed my life, my family’s lives. You are not indestructible. So much can go wrong in your head and neck. Never let anyone jerk your neck or head around at speed and with power. Don’t reply and tell me how you’re the one dude who knows how to do it and not get hurt. I was that guy too.

At any rate, that’s the whole story for those that are interested.

Thats at the same time really unfortunate, fortunate and useful for the rest of us. Thank you for sharing, and i hope a few more miracles come your way through all this, bringing you back to as much normalcy as you can. Particularly the temper, with children I cant imagine how many hardships this all causes you.

 

[_Simon_]

.......... wow. Yep thank you so much for sharing that, what a disturbing incident that must have caused such immense and ongoing pain and difficulty, but it certainly has me more aware now.

 

[thanson02]

I posted this on the Krav Maga page but I thought it would also be relevant here.

My son was used in a demonstration of a clinching technique in a Krav Maga class. The instructor pinched off the arteries in my son's neck and proceeded to drag him around the room by the neck.

The upshot? Stroke. My son survived but he will never participate in a martial arts class, skiing, or any other rigorous activity for the rest of his life.

The club owner has since sold the business and moved to Europe.

Remember the term "trusted partner."

There will be on way to get compensation for his injury. All that is left is to say...BE CAREFUL!

My gods......... My heart goes out to your family. Thank you to the OP and his son for sharing this.

 

[isshinryuronin]

A student's safety should always be an instructor's #1 consideration. Sure, in combat arts, especially MMA/BJJ, accidents happen, but this sounds like the instructor was more concerned in making a statement and using your son as a prop - losing sight of his responsibility.

I am sorry about your son and the effects to your family. But, like DocWard, I hope he can find fulfillment in some activity and encourage him to stay with some type of MA - even a severely limited physical capability will not keep him from reaping the other benefits MA can offer.

 

[Prostar]

Thanks for getting my point. So many threads go off the rails and stay there. I can only hope that another student will be spared the suffering. Such a situation is rare and I hope it remains that way.