Basics and Sparring

[Makalakumu]

How many of you practice an art where the basics that you learn are EXACTLY what you use when you spar?

If not and if so, what do your basics look like and what does your sparring look like?

Lastly, do you think that basics and sparring should resemble each other or is this not really important? Why?

 

[stoneheart]

What a great topic for discussion. I'm at work, so I can't write too long, but it's obvious that many schools do not spar like they practice their basics.

Consider chambering. Chambering is stressed during kihon in most karate schools. Chambering gets you clocked when you are sparring a classmate. Why the disconnect between training and actual application?

Obviously we practice chambering as a aid to remember that retraction is a key concept to striking with power in karate. At the same time, it's equally important to remember that sparring is not real fighting either, and it should be regarded as just another training tool.

I personally support this line of thinking. Many traditional karate schools rarely spar for this exact reason. They believe that frequent sparring encourages bad habits. What works in sparring against a friendly opponent often will not work on the street. Instead they continually train in yakusoku kumite, believing this is a better way of transmitting the style's fighting methods. Styles like goju-ryu karate and uechi-ryu karate does lots of yakusoku kumite.

 

[stoneheart]

I just realized I didn't answer the questions directly.

I have studied goju-ryu karate. I believe sparring merely is a tool for training interval and speed against a moving, uncooperative target. The techniques and style of execution you use in sparring should be similar to what your kihon practice, yet I recognize this is not the case if your instructor does not discipline you to 'spar' within the philosophy and methods of your style.

Some martial arts such as muay thai and boxing and jiu-jitsu do a great job of transmitting their basics into sparring.

 

[Makalakumu]

Thanks for your reply stonehart. In TSD our kicking is practiced in a very straightforward and practical manner. Thus, in our sparring, our kicks are great. Our hand techniques and our blocking, however, used alot of the old traditional chambering that you talked about and were not useful in sparring at all. So, we were forced to supplement.

I wonder how it got like that?

Anyway, yakusoku kumite, could you elaborate more on how this looks?

 

[stoneheart]

I wonder how it got like that?

I think it's like kata. We tend to think that every single move in kata must have bunkai or martial purpose to it. Much of the time a movement is simply for artistry or to build strength and balance. This is much more true in my opinion with regard to Chinese or Japanese or Korean forms. I think the Okinawan forms tend to retain more practical content (and yes, I am generalizing).

So we chamber because it helps us remember to retract our punches and to emphasize hip rotation. Oh yeah, it's aesthetically pleasing, too.

Yakusoku kumite is simply prearranging sparring. I believe TSD people call them one-step and three-step sparring. Again, this is just my opinion, but I think the way Okinawan systems (and many Chinese systems, too) do it is much superior to what I have seen in TKD and TSD. On the former examples, you frequently see attack and defense performed simultaneously by the same people. The one steps I have seen in TKD and TSD all involve a defender countering off a formal lunge punch from an attacker in a front stance - it seems primitive in comparision.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think it's like kata. We tend to think that every single move in kata must have bunkai or martial purpose to it. Much of the time a movement is simply for artistry or to build strength and balance. This is much more true in my opinion with regard to Chinese or Japanese or Korean forms. I think the Okinawan forms tend to retain more practical content (and yes, I am generalizing).

We practice variations of the old Okinawan hyung in our branch of TSD. IMHO, I think that the amount of moves that are poorly understood or are "simply for artistry or to build strength and balance" is directly proportional to the amount of cultures the hyung has passed through. In Okinawa, the forms are very close to the source so the practicioners understand them better. In Japan, the next place the forms went, the understanding is a little fuzzier. In Korea, often the understanding of the forms is completely jacked up. In America...heh.

So we chamber because it helps us remember to retract our punches and to emphasize hip rotation. Oh yeah, it's aesthetically pleasing, too.

This is one aspect that is completely misunderstood IMO. Chambering has a martial purpose, just not the purpose we were taught. There are many forms where I believe the chambering the changed in order to make them seem more artistic...and thus the true purpose of drawing the hand back was lost.

The bottom line is that all chambering indicates grabbing.

Yakusoku kumite is simply prearranging sparring. I believe TSD people call them one-step and three-step sparring. Again, this is just my opinion, but I think the way Okinawan systems (and many Chinese systems, too) do it is much superior to what I have seen in TKD and TSD. On the former examples, you frequently see attack and defense performed simultaneously by the same people. The one steps I have seen in TKD and TSD all involve a defender countering off a formal lunge punch from an attacker in a front stance - it seems primitive in comparision.

This is what I thought it was and you are correct most of the one steps I have seen in TSD and TKD are horsey doodo. They should be labeled how to have your butt handed to you in a fight because the movements are so far removed from what someone would actually do to defend themselves.

Again, I wonder how this happened? It's not like Tangsoodoin or Taekwondoin don't ever spar. Wouldn't someone have made the connection that these movements are nothing like what we use when we actually put our stuff to the test?

I used to practice shotokan when I was a kid. The one steps were a little better, but even those were somewhat removed from a combination of techniques that one would use in a fight. Lately, I've been introduced to some Okinawan stuff that seems pretty interesting though. I'll have to learn more of it before I can give any opinion.

The bottom line is this...imagine how it would change many arts if they asked questions like what would I use to effectively punch someone? What would I use to effective block a real punch or kick thrown in my direction? What would I really do to kick someone? How can I practice that?

Doesn't that seem like a good foundation for basics?

 

[spinkick]

My teacher always told me that We chamber as much as we can during training so that when we are stressed in a real life fight when we aren't going to do everything perfect, we still do it to the extent that the kick will work.

 

[Makalakumu]

My teacher always told me that We chamber as much as we can during training so that when we are stressed in a real life fight when we aren't going to do everything perfect, we still do it to the extent that the kick will work.

Chambering the kick is one thing. Chambering the hand is another. This discussion is about chambering the hand...like after a front punch or a low block.

 

[stoneheart]

This is one aspect that is completely misunderstood IMO. Chambering has a martial purpose, just not the purpose we were taught. There are many forms where I believe the chambering the changed in order to make them seem more artistic...and thus the true purpose of drawing the hand back was lost.

The bottom line is that all chambering indicates grabbing.

We probably agree more than disagree on this one. I respectfully submit however that bunkai changes over time. If your teacher alters the meaning of the form either on purpose or from ignorance, can we really say the grabs are still there? What about the common down block chambering? TKD does it one way, shito-ryu does it another, goju-ryu does it yet another way. I know why goju does it their way, but if someone from another art tells me that there is no purpose in it other than aesthetics, I would accept it. Their art is not mine, even if it might have had a common ancestor.

I am enjoying this discussion. Thanks for starting the topic.

 

[Makalakumu]

We probably agree more than disagree on this one. I respectfully submit however that bunkai changes over time. If your teacher alters the meaning of the form either on purpose or from ignorance, can we really say the grabs are still there? What about the common down block chambering? TKD does it one way, shito-ryu does it another, goju-ryu does it yet another way. I know why goju does it their way, but if someone from another art tells me that there is no purpose in it other than aesthetics, I would accept it. Their art is not mine, even if it might have had a common ancestor.

I am enjoying this discussion. Thanks for starting the topic.

I see your point here and I think that it is very important because it illustrates that arts change. However, I also think that it is equally important to remember that the original people who created this stuff were using to fight and if you make changes to bunkai, then you better be darn sure that it actually works in a fight. Otherwise, one is going to end up with the subject that we are discussing. Why do basics and sparring look so different? IMHO I don't think that they should. That they do is probably an indication of the process outlined above.

 

[spinkick]

Hmmm Well I really do not like telegraphing my punches, I've found you dont have to have pull your punch way back to get power if you use your hips.. At least thats my experiecnce.

 

[matt.m]

I don't know, I must be wierd but I see and practice sparring with the same pieces of the 9 one step sparring techniques and the six basics I have to know to pass my green belt test.

When doing combination moves across the room or sparring our GM shows how each piece is practical.

 

[painstain]

in some ways yes. our basic technique is the most practical and the most simple kicks get used in sparring more than anything. we have some basic fighting patterns in the form of kick punch punch kick. also patterns from our basic forms. but in some ways no as well. we spar people we train with and its hard to pull off a technique that is unexpected so we have to go a little more advanced or just mix it all up some.

with respect
painstain

 

[trueaspirer]

A lot of the moves we learned we apply to our sparring. However, it is encouraged to be creative and inventive and not to stick only to specific techniques. A wide range of techniques, including ones that don't exist, can be immensely helpful in many situations, where the restriction of technique, by habit, will hold you back.

 

[Fuzzy Foot]

Some basics such as kicks are able to be used as is, as are some hand techniques. The issue with basics transferring to sparring is the longer drawn out motion making them slower but mechanically correct and powerful. So generally speaking modifications are in the form of shorter/faster motions e.g. economy of motion. I'm sure this is not news to anyone here. Basics, one steps, three steps, kata, among these we find fighting techniques and strategy which is then up to you to put to use according to your individual preferences and abilities. Some of the techniques are sparring/fighting practical and some are not, these are all stepping stones in your education of your art for you to eventually make it YOUR ART. My basics "show" in my sparring/fighting but they are not the same. Hope I didn't ramble.

 

[Ange]

I'm only a Gup, so still learning, and I must admitt I detest sparring, but from what I've learnt so far - the reason we learn and practice, practice, practice our basics; forms and combinations is so that they become so second nature that when sparring or in a life threatening situation, they will become second nature. Not sure if this is a relatively naieve (sp) way to think, and I've never had to put it into place, but at present it sound logical to me.
I know we are expected to use all our moves (technically correct of course) when we practice sparring.
Ange
In a Very Hot & Humid Darwin - Oz