Gloves prevent what I would consider proper punching technique.
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Bare knuckles boxing safer than with gloves
- Thread starter ShortBridge
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Gloves prevent what I would consider proper punching technique.
Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.
Gloves do prevent proper punching technique. Our school doesn't use gloves when punching the bad or training because it teaches a person to hit harder than their fist, hand, or wrist is conditioned for. When students complain that their hand hurt when punching the pads we tell them to hit softer and explain to them that they are hitting harder than what their hand is conditioned for. Students are always able to hit harder with the gloves on and it's always without consideration of if the hand is actually conditioned to hit that hard.
People with gloves on punch as if they can't damage their hands so technique of proper punching often is thrown away.
Danny T
Senior Master
I agree. And with that glove technology is such to compensate because of it.
lklawson
Grandmaster
There are points of comparison.
If by that you mean that the boxing techniques used today are optimized for the modern boxing environment and rules, then, yes, I agree. However, it is unlikely that modern boxing techniques would offer great advantage in a historic, Pre-Marquis bare knuckle rule set. The two are different enough to cause problems for one going to the other.
If by that you mean that modern boxing training is optimized, using modern science, to the modern boxing rule set and environment, then I agree. However, many of the modern training methods would be wasted for use in a historic boxing environment. That said, many would not. The use of modern dietary science and certain physical training methods, like plyometrics for instance, would work very well to improve performance in a historic context. Some others, such as modern heavy bag training, would likely be a hindrance.
If by "stronger" due to weight training, you're probably right, though I can't recall seeing any documentation about how physically "strong" most historic boxer were as far as their ability to lift weights goes.
Modern boxing footwork would be a hindrance in historic, pre-Marquis bare knuckle boxing. Historically, they tended to fight either at long range ("Outfighting") or grapple and throw. The modern boxing distance just didn't happen that much, thus, footwork optimized for that range wouldn't be all that useful. Now, MMA footwork, on the other hand, is a lot closer, minus kicks and shoots.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Iklawson
Footwork is everything and boxers have some the quickest feet out there to the point where even UFC fighters use some of the same movements to slip and land punches. You can't hit or grab something that you can't catch and hold. Boxing is a science like all other fighting styles. If you have bad footwork or weak stances then ultimately you will lose.
Heavy bag training isn't a waste. Heavy bag training conditions the fist, arms, and joints for the impact that it will experience when punching a real person. Heavy bag training helps to get technique of a punch down and reducing injury.
By stronger I mean training to be a stronger fighter, deliver a stronger punch, and better developing the muscles that are required to deliver a strong punch, and the ability to withstand a strong punch. The reason why modern athletes are breaking records is because they are getting better and faster than the ones who came before them.
"Historically, they tended to fight either at long range (Outfighting) or grapple and throw" This proves my point. Many boxers know how to use their foot work and technique to close the distance. Boxers know how to bob and weave which is good for long range fighting. This is a necessity for when someone has a longer punching range. MMA fighters use the similar boxing techniques. Here's proof of that
The only downside to Boxers would be that they only train to punch and defend against punches. But MMA guys use boxing techniques all the time in their matches.
Footwork is everything and boxers have some the quickest feet out there to the point where even UFC fighters use some of the same movements to slip and land punches. You can't hit or grab something that you can't catch and hold. Boxing is a science like all other fighting styles. If you have bad footwork or weak stances then ultimately you will lose.
Heavy bag training isn't a waste. Heavy bag training conditions the fist, arms, and joints for the impact that it will experience when punching a real person. Heavy bag training helps to get technique of a punch down and reducing injury.
By stronger I mean training to be a stronger fighter, deliver a stronger punch, and better developing the muscles that are required to deliver a strong punch, and the ability to withstand a strong punch. The reason why modern athletes are breaking records is because they are getting better and faster than the ones who came before them.
"Historically, they tended to fight either at long range (Outfighting) or grapple and throw" This proves my point. Many boxers know how to use their foot work and technique to close the distance. Boxers know how to bob and weave which is good for long range fighting. This is a necessity for when someone has a longer punching range. MMA fighters use the similar boxing techniques. Here's proof of that
The only downside to Boxers would be that they only train to punch and defend against punches. But MMA guys use boxing techniques all the time in their matches.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Yes.
And you can't hit something which is beyond your reach. And?
Interesting historical note: The earliest I recall seeing Boxing being referred to as a "science" is during the early 20th Century with the advancement of "Scientific Boxing" which grew from the Amateur Boxing trend.
And? My thesis is that pre-Marquis training and techniques were optimized for that environment and rule set and that modern boxing training and techniques are optimized for the modern rule set and environment. The modern method wouldn't give automatic superiority in a pre-Marquis context because it's not optimized for that. This isn't Victorian theories on Evolution. Modern Boxing training makes great modern boxers.
Maybe you train it differently but most of the modern use of the Heavy Bag I've seen doesn't work to promote bare knuckle punching. If you do, then I'm glad.
A stronger punch? Only if they conditioned their hands to be able to survive that and then used the proper technique for punching. Most modern boxing training seems to not do this.
The sprint isn't boxing. No offense. There's a lot more to it than just "stronger and faster."
Only if you automatically assume that the historic footwork and head movement didn't exist or wasn't optimized to their environment.
This was a critical skill in pre-Marquis boxing. Why would you think it wouldn't be? Can we agree that modern boxing spends more time in a closer range? Then we can also agree that pre-Marquis boxing had to figure out how to get into punching range and proper footwork is critical to that. Pre-Marquis boxers had footwork optimized for their environment.
Just as they did in pre-Marquis boxing. I believe I addressed this and gave some examples up-thread.
Which hasn't changed since pre-Marquis boxing days. In fact, due to the fact that there weren't weight classes for much of the time, the problem was exacerbated. You could easily see a boxer with a 30 pound weight advantage and commensurate reach. Do you really believe that they just sucked it up and got pounded? Mendoza was, famously, a "little" man. Yet he was champion for years.
Their boxing technique often looks much closer to the pre-Marquis techniques.
And?
Do you think I'm saying that modern boxers aren't good at what they do? I'm not. Do you think that I'm saying that pre-Marquis boxers, if magically transported in the Tardis to a modern boxing match would beat the modern boxer? I'm not.
But, do you think that a modern boxer, also mystically time-transported, if dropped into a pre-Marquis Bare Knuckle pugilism match would whoop up on the pugilist? On his own turf? Under rules which he's been training for and which are markedly different from modern boxing? I rather doubt it, but that seems to be what you're saying. Or did I get that wrong?
Again, what I'm saying is that each of them are trained and optimized to their own environment and rule set. Modern boxing techniques and training aren't optimized for pre-Marquis bare knuckle pugilism. Neither are pre-Marquis bare knuckle pugilism techniques and training optimized to the modern ring.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Steve
Mostly Harmless
So, wait... in general, I'm enjoying he conversation here. But, are you guys saying that in a self defense oriented martial art, you think people should intentionally hit softer and further, that hitting softer is good technique? That doesn't compute. I mean, it conflicts with the head stomping, eye gouging, kill or be killed, survive at any cost mentality common to the self defense contingent.
Steve
In my training and martial style, we put technique before power. Hitting a heavy bag without technique and all power is a good way to injure yourself. In addition if your hand isn't conditioned to strike an object in that manner then you would only increase the damage to your hand.
People make the assumption that the only way to have tough knuckles is to hit something as hard as you can. You can also learn to hit harder by not trying to hit as hard as you can. When I hit the heavy bag, I'm always hitting it with soft to medium force. Over time the bone in my knuckle increases in density and the skin around my knuckle becomes tougher. If you did this you'll begin to notice that what you considered a hard punch 5 months ago is now your soft punch. If I were to punch someone "softly" today, they would instantly think that I was punching them very hard, even though to me if felt like I was hitting the person softly.
Because my conditioning is done softly, I don't get those ugly boxing knuckles and I don't damage my hand or the nerves in it. I condition my forearms and shins in the same way. When it comes to self-defense everything is done within the realm of my conditioning. If my hand isn't conditioned to hit a hard object then I shouldn't use it to hit someone's skull.
In terms of an actual fight, you should hit hard but not beyond the conditioning of your hand. Doing so would cause you to damage your hand which will then make it useless for defending yourself.
In my training and martial style, we put technique before power. Hitting a heavy bag without technique and all power is a good way to injure yourself. In addition if your hand isn't conditioned to strike an object in that manner then you would only increase the damage to your hand.
People make the assumption that the only way to have tough knuckles is to hit something as hard as you can. You can also learn to hit harder by not trying to hit as hard as you can. When I hit the heavy bag, I'm always hitting it with soft to medium force. Over time the bone in my knuckle increases in density and the skin around my knuckle becomes tougher. If you did this you'll begin to notice that what you considered a hard punch 5 months ago is now your soft punch. If I were to punch someone "softly" today, they would instantly think that I was punching them very hard, even though to me if felt like I was hitting the person softly.
Because my conditioning is done softly, I don't get those ugly boxing knuckles and I don't damage my hand or the nerves in it. I condition my forearms and shins in the same way. When it comes to self-defense everything is done within the realm of my conditioning. If my hand isn't conditioned to hit a hard object then I shouldn't use it to hit someone's skull.
In terms of an actual fight, you should hit hard but not beyond the conditioning of your hand. Doing so would cause you to damage your hand which will then make it useless for defending yourself.
There is certainly that... They prevent forming a proper fist, and can encourage poor wrist alignment. If your style uses certain wrist snapping and turning motions... you can't really do them in boxing gloves.
Ironbear24
Senior Master
I feel like getting hit with a glove feels more a "push" and is able to deliver more pressure per inch into my head vs a punch without a glove. Honestly the more pressure being delivered into the skull and the jaw in general is what causes a knockout, all that pressure combined with the speed. It causes that dreaded "dizzy feeling" when you get hit and honestly that is the worst because it opens you up to get hit more.
Because of this I hate headgear and gloves and prefer to spar without them. Honestly I feel like a glove protects the users hands more than it protects the guy getting hit.
Gloves protect against bones fracturing and breaking on both parties though so that is a definite plus. But in sparring you are supposed to not use full power anyway. When I get hit with a fist in the face it feels more like a sharp pain rather than a forceful push that causes me to get dizzy.
In general I don't like getting hit at all of course but I have accepted it is going to happen often in martial arts.
Because of this I hate headgear and gloves and prefer to spar without them. Honestly I feel like a glove protects the users hands more than it protects the guy getting hit.
Gloves protect against bones fracturing and breaking on both parties though so that is a definite plus. But in sparring you are supposed to not use full power anyway. When I get hit with a fist in the face it feels more like a sharp pain rather than a forceful push that causes me to get dizzy.
In general I don't like getting hit at all of course but I have accepted it is going to happen often in martial arts.
Steve. You have to realize the target audience. If I have 5 minutes to teach a complete amature something that will save their life in a fight to the death they are going to have in an hour. Teaching technique, structure, energy, physiology etc. is a waste of time and likely will be of little to no use. If I get them pumped up to go ape**** they have a chance. I usually focus on very basic blocking/parrying. That can be picked up and used quickly. Thats it. If you want to learn fighting, training in a martial art is FAR better then all that hype. Not that that hype can't be useful to a trained fighter. But their training will be far more useful. And, in a fight I usually hit soft, but like JawGaWolf said, my soft might not feel soft.
Taiji Rebel
Black Belt
“You cannot compare the fighter of the past with those of today…Today glove-fighting is like sandbagging. You hit a man in the right place and he drops dizzy and unconscious…[in the past] it was the artist in those days that gave the straight punches, and it was the artist that won the fight" - William Madden (1893)
