Bare knuckles boxing safer than with gloves

[ShortBridge]

Interesting article. I am fan of boxing and boxing history, but I had never quite heard this. At least not with any history to support it. I thought some of you might enjoy the article.

Bare-knuckled Boxing Is Safer Than Boxing with Gloves 22 Words

 

[Jenna]

Interesting article. I am fan of boxing and boxing history, but I had never quite heard this. At least not with any history to support it. I thought some of you might enjoy the article.

Bare-knuckled Boxing Is Safer Than Boxing with Gloves 22 Words

Yes good valid points here.. With the gloves - and the hand wrapping - you can throw full power to the head where you would mash hands doing that bare knuckled.. all is to protect the hitter at the expense of the fighter that is hit, but then boxing today is a sport and must cater for the spectators who would not want to stand around for hours for their satisfactory climax. Gloves make boxing perilous now and but then bare knuckle is still around plenty and it is brutal - you can surely not claim it as a safr alternative.. an alternative yes and but a SAFER alternative??? I do not believe that?? Good article though thx for posting Jx

 

[Tez3]

I've heard it before and looking at the way boxers wrap their hands before putting on their gloves I can believe that bare knuckle is actually safer.
We have bare knuckle promotions here in the UK, not car park or pub back garden fighting but proper legal promotions, they are quite popular.
http://bbadbkb.co.uk/

 

[Touch Of Death]

I've heard it before and looking at the way boxers wrap their hands before putting on their gloves I can believe that bare knuckle is actually safer.
We have bare knuckle promotions here in the UK, not car park or pub back garden fighting but proper legal promotions, they are quite popular.
http://bbadbkb.co.uk/

That is all to make your hands do what they were never designed to do.

 

[Tez3]

This is how pro boxers wrap their hands, as it says they make what is, for all intents and purposes, a rock hard cast for their hands so they can hit as hard as possible.
How to Wrap Your Hands - Professional Method - Tape and Gauze How-to-Box.com

 

[Orange Lightning]

Interesting article. I am fan of boxing and boxing history, but I had never quite heard this. At least not with any history to support it. I thought some of you might enjoy the article.

Bare-knuckled Boxing Is Safer Than Boxing with Gloves 22 Words

Wouldn't have expected this. Makes sense though.
I read that the first death in bare knuckle boxing (which I think was inflicted by Daniel Mendoza) brought about the first restriction. No striking an opponent with 3 parts touching the ground. So if someone was to fall to one knee or hand, or just have any 3 parts of their body touching the ground, you couldn't hit them.

About that stance they mention.

The gloves, targets and some other stuff. Longer video

 

[Tez3]

I understood that gloves were first brought in by the Regency dandies who liked to box but not get their faces marked. I think deaths were not uncommon in those days. It's also forgotten that women used to fight as well in the days before Queensbury rules.

Now and then boxing gloves Sport The Observer

 

[Orange Lightning]

I understood that gloves were first brought in by the Regency dandies who liked to box but not get their faces marked. I think deaths were not uncommon in those days. It's also forgotten that women used to fight as well in the days before Queensbury rules.

Now and then boxing gloves Sport The Observer

"Today, the weight of gloves has increased, for safety reasons, and now varies between eight and 10 ounces. In 1983 Luis Resto, a journeyman junior-middleweight, proved how dangerous fighting with an unpadded glove could be when he adminstered a terrible beating to the previously undefeated Billy Collins. After the fight it was discovered, by Collins's father, that Resto's trainer, Panama Lewis had removed much of the padding from his charge's gloves with a tweezer. Lewis served 2 years of a six-year sentence for assault, conspiracy, tampering with a sports contest and criminal possession of a deadly weapon (Resto's fists)."

Really crappy crime. But that last bit about the criminal possession of Resto's fists is great.

 

[Buka]

To shorten the matches — The last bare-knuckled match in 1897 went on for 75 rounds.

The rule set was different then. A round could end when an opponent's knee would touch the mat. Which is something you would do when you got in trouble or were tired.

The reason bare-knuckled boxers took a stance that looks silly to us now is that they were mainly protecting their bodies. The head was not a primary target, since a worthwhile punch to the skull would probably break the puncher’s hand. Not so once gloves were introduced.

Boxing had yet to develop much of the science of punching and footwork yet. The left hook hadn't even come into play until Corbett/Sullivan era. The left hook changed a lot about fighting.

Bare knuckle fighters of the era knew much less evading through body movement. There was a lot of perceived "manliness" to the sport back then as well. Head movement was rudimentary at best. Combinations - at least compared to what we think of now as combinations - would look like they came from another planet.

Gloves distribute the force of a punch more widely, reducing the instances of broken jaws, knocked out teeth and blindness. (Apparently, slamming one’s opponent’s head is sometimes worth the broken hand.) But they also add 10 ounces to each swing making a full on punch “comparable to being hit with a 12lb padded wooden mallet travelling at 20mph.”

The added weight of the gloves does change things. But let me ask you guys this - ever box? Hurts getting punched in the face. But have you ever been punched in the face by someone not wearing gloves? Really punched? At least by someone who can punch. It's bad. Horrible even. Given the choice of being punched in the face with a bare fist or being punched in the face with a glove, I know which line I'm getting in. I'm getting in that long sucker.

As for the videos posted - I could listen to Martin Austwick all day. And then some.

 

[Orange Lightning]

To shorten the matches — The last bare-knuckled match in 1897 went on for 75 rounds.

The rule set was different then. A round could end when an opponent's knee would touch the mat. Which is something you would do when you got in trouble or were tired.

The reason bare-knuckled boxers took a stance that looks silly to us now is that they were mainly protecting their bodies. The head was not a primary target, since a worthwhile punch to the skull would probably break the puncher’s hand. Not so once gloves were introduced.

Boxing had yet to develop much of the science of punching and footwork yet. The left hook hadn't even come into play until Corbett/Sullivan era. The left hook changed a lot about fighting.

Bare knuckle fighters of the era knew much less evading through body movement. There was a lot of perceived "manliness" to the sport back then as well. Head movement was rudimentary at best. Combinations - at least compared to what we think of now as combinations - would look like they came from another planet.

Gloves distribute the force of a punch more widely, reducing the instances of broken jaws, knocked out teeth and blindness. (Apparently, slamming one’s opponent’s head is sometimes worth the broken hand.) But they also add 10 ounces to each swing making a full on punch “comparable to being hit with a 12lb padded wooden mallet travelling at 20mph.”

The added weight of the gloves does change things. But let me ask you guys this - ever box? Hurts getting punched in the face. But have you ever been punched in the face by someone not wearing gloves? Really punched? At least by someone who can punch. It's bad. Horrible even. Given the choice of being punched in the face with a bare fist or being punched in the face with a glove, I know which line I'm getting in. I'm getting in that long sucker.

As for the videos posted - I could listen to Martin Austwick all day. And then some.

Youtube channels

Martin's channel.

EnglishMartialArts - YouTube

and Scholagladiatoria. They are both HEMA oriented

scholagladiatoria - YouTube

 

[Mephisto]

I think there's a trade off between gloved and ungloved and the gloved fight is probably only more dangerous for competing professionals. Without gloves cuts and damage to the face are inevitable. I could only imagine how id look if my weekly sparring were bare knuckle. I really question the intensity of martial arts groups that spar unpadded without head gear or gloves. The stuff I've seen is reminiscent of slap boxing, or is a game of trying to hit the guy without actually hitting him out of respect, the result is a lot of questionable "hits" that may or may not have been enough to stop or slow the opponent.

To return to the op, cuts to the face, or a broken nose that commonly result from an ungloved full contact fight are pretty safe compared to brain damage from a prolonged fight and repeated blows when gloves are involved, but for daily training is say gloves are almost certainly safer

 

[lklawson]

I read that the first death in bare knuckle boxing (which I think was inflicted by Daniel Mendoza) brought about the first restriction

Broughton. He killed an opponent in what was effectively a gladitorial match. He was a "Stage Gladiator" and fought Singlestick, Backsword, Boxing, etc. When he killed a man in a Boxing match, he wrote the first English boxing rules.
"That no person is to hit his Adversary when he is down, or seize him by the ham, the breeches, or any part below the waist: a man on his knees to be reckoned down."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

but then boxing today is a sport and must cater for the spectators who would not want to stand around for hours for their satisfactory climax.

They were happy to do so during the Broughton era and the London Prize Ring era.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

The reason bare-knuckled boxers took a stance that looks silly to us now is that they were mainly protecting their bodies. The head was not a primary target, since a worthwhile punch to the skull would probably break the puncher’s hand. Not so once gloves were introduced.

Feh. This is wrong. Mendoza's famous (and recorded) fight with Humprheys began with him knocking Humphreys down several time, first strike, by punching him in the face.

Here's a direct quote from the account.
"They stripped, and on setting too, the seconds retired to separate corners of the enclosure.
Humphreys aimed the first blow at the face of his antagonist. This Mendoza stopped, returned it with great quickness, and knocked him down: the second and third rounds terminated in exactly the same manner."

Boxing had yet to develop much of the science of punching and footwork yet. The left hook hadn't even come into play until Corbett/Sullivan era. The left hook changed a lot about fighting.

Sorry, friend, but that's just plain wrong. There were plenty of what they would sometime call the "rounding blow." In later periods (London Prize Ring era) they had great debates on the supremacy of the the Straight punches over "the Swing." Mendoza's Lessons describes "round blows" to both the body and the head. Further, footwork was pretty darn sophisticated, as was to be expected from people who didn't want to be punched in the head or the solar plexus ("the mark"). There's some indication that it was, early on, related to fencing footwork. Not modern fencing, historic fencing where getting "hit" meant getting stabbed or having bits of you lopped off. Remember that guy Broughton I mentioned above? He was a broadsword fencer (think a basket hilted, singled handed sword with two edges). The best evidence seems to indicate that the footwork had a common source but evolved separately.

Bare knuckle fighters of the era knew much less evading through body movement. There was a lot of perceived "manliness" to the sport back then as well. Head movement was rudimentary at best.

Nope. Just not so. No one wants to get punched in the face, even if it "only" means a smashed up nose, cut up brows, and missing teeth, which did happen. IMS, it was James Figg who got "choppered" to the face and eyebrows so bad (late in his carrer) that that both eyes swelled shut and he elected to box effectively blind. Head movement was pretty darn important and you can see it in lots of the old manuals. Donnally's manual is probably one of the better showing body evasions and head movement, but my favorite is Defensive Exersizes, which shows, in the Simpler Method of Boxing (it teaches two different methods), a boxer fading back and directing the opponent's fist into his elbow.

Combinations - at least compared to what we think of now as combinations - would look like they came from another planet.

Sorta. In the same way that MMA Combinations look like they came from another planet. Because the range tended to be further out. Grappling and throws were legal (and the fans loved 'em!). When you're at a range where you have to step or shuffle forward to make a hit you're not going to see Jab-Jab-Cross because, wait for it, it doesn't work at that range. And there's also the possibility that your opponent might say, "screw this" after eating a jab and clinch, then chuck you with a hip throw and "accidentally" land on top of you.

Gloves distribute the force of a punch more widely, reducing the instances of broken jaws, knocked out teeth and blindness. (Apparently, slamming one’s opponent’s head is sometimes worth the broken hand.) But they also add 10 ounces to each swing making a full on punch “comparable to being hit with a 12lb padded wooden mallet travelling at 20mph.”

Feh. The danger of modern boxing is brain trauma.

As for the videos posted - I could listen to Martin Austwick all day. And then some.

He's a good guy. Nice fella.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

To return to the op, cuts to the face, or a broken nose that commonly result from an ungloved full contact fight are pretty safe compared to brain damage from a prolonged fight and repeated blows when gloves are involved, but for daily training is say gloves are almost certainly safer

When gloves ("Mufflers" or "Mittens") were first introduced to Boxing, it was for two purposes, first for "safer" (less obviously injurious) boxing among amateurs and second, for "safer" training for professionals who were then expected to fight bare knuckle. However, this theory wasn't universally accepted by all professionals, some of whom scoffed at the idea, one famously stating that he didn't see any point to doing the hand conditioning he'd done only to cover his fists with pillows; the idea being to hurt the other guy.

And, yes, they did do special hand conditioning (usually hitting bags - which were markedly different from modern bags -- and in one case something similar to a makiwara). They also had special topical applications and lineaments for toughening up the skin. Most of these were akin to leather tanning practices and often involved mild acid which would cross-link the collagen of the skin leaving the skin flexible but sacrificing elasticity in favor of thicker, less prone to damage skin.

My favorite of these recipes is not available today. It was Bob "Ruby Red" Fitzsimmons' personal recipe and contained laudanum which, for some reason the "druggist" won't sell to me.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

Feh. This is wrong. Mendoza's famous (and recorded) fight with Humprheys began with him knocking Humphreys down several time, first strike, by punching him in the face.

Here's a direct quote from the account.
"They stripped, and on setting too, the seconds retired to separate corners of the enclosure.
Humphreys aimed the first blow at the face of his antagonist. This Mendoza stopped, returned it with great quickness, and knocked him down: the second and third rounds terminated in exactly the same manner."

Sorry, friend, but that's just plain wrong. There were plenty of what they would sometime call the "rounding blow." In later periods (London Prize Ring era) they had great debates on the supremacy of the the Straight punches over "the Swing." Mendoza's Lessons describes "round blows" to both the body and the head. Further, footwork was pretty darn sophisticated, as was to be expected from people who didn't want to be punched in the head or the solar plexus ("the mark"). There's some indication that it was, early on, related to fencing footwork. Not modern fencing, historic fencing where getting "hit" meant getting stabbed or having bits of you lopped off. Remember that guy Broughton I mentioned above? He was a broadsword fencer (think a basket hilted, singled handed sword with two edges). The best evidence seems to indicate that the footwork had a common source but evolved separately.

Nope. Just not so. No one wants to get punched in the face, even if it "only" means a smashed up nose, cut up brows, and missing teeth, which did happen. IMS, it was James Figg who got "choppered" to the face and eyebrows so bad (late in his carrer) that that both eyes swelled shut and he elected to box effectively blind. Head movement was pretty darn important and you can see it in lots of the old manuals. Donnally's manual is probably one of the better showing body evasions and head movement, but my favorite is Defensive Exersizes, which shows, in the Simpler Method of Boxing (it teaches two different methods), a boxer fading back and directing the opponent's fist into his elbow.

Sorta. In the same way that MMA Combinations look like they came from another planet. Because the range tended to be further out. Grappling and throws were legal (and the fans loved 'em!). When you're at a range where you have to step or shuffle forward to make a hit you're not going to see Jab-Jab-Cross because, wait for it, it doesn't work at that range. And there's also the possibility that your opponent might say, "screw this" after eating a jab and clinch, then chuck you with a hip throw and "accidentally" land on top of you.

Feh. The danger of modern boxing is brain trauma.

He's a good guy. Nice fella.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Buka]

I completely disagree. Except for the part where Austwick is a good, nice fella.

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

Interesting article. I am fan of boxing and boxing history, but I had never quite heard this. At least not with any history to support it. I thought some of you might enjoy the article.

Bare-knuckled Boxing Is Safer Than Boxing with Gloves 22 Words

This article does not come up with any FACTS.

The reason why boxers die today is because they do a lot of sparring which is pretty bad for the head, and the other reason is, because the todays boxers are muscle hulks with non-human force in one punch.

+ back then, fights were not documented as today, so how could we know who died behind some factory-hall in a dirty bare-knuckle fight ?

 

[lklawson]

+ back then, fights were not documented as today, so how could we know who died behind some factory-hall in a dirty bare-knuckle fight ?

Actually, they kept quite a bit of good records. I republished one book which documented hundreds of fight records. Many of them were very interesting included fights by women against women. Further, how is off the books fights then any different from now? There are still plenty of off-the-books fights.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

Actually, they kept quite a bit of good records. I republished one book which documented hundreds of fight records. Many of them were very interesting included fights by women against women. Further, how is off the books fights then any different from now? There are still plenty of off-the-books fights.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

Because hundreds are not enough if you know there are thousand of thousand more, some sort of backyard fights.

Somebody who wants to tell me, bare-knuckle fights are less dangerous and less lethal than fights ( boxing ) where you wear thick gloves around your fists, is just insane!!

MAYBE there are differences, but these differences should be searched in the individuals physic not in some sort of mythos.

It's totally logical. As I said, boxers from today are much more trained than some random bare knuckle fighters from back then, the most fights were done by the average joe, not by ultra-trained with steroid pumped 2 meters tall muscle-speed guys.

Check out the modern boxing scene and you will see how much doping there is actually involved.