Bail Out Automakers ... or let 'em fall?

[Rich Parsons]

Two articles about Automakers and or Detroit

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081220/ap_on_re_us/motown_blues

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081220/ap_on_go_pr_wh/meltdown_autos

 

[dungeonworks]

Bob,

I agree that $800 Billion is from the Federal Reserve, but the $17.4 Billion that the Auto Companies get as loans with stipulations comes from the TARP funds authorized by Congress. The TARP funds were the monies authorized for the Finance Companies with no stipulations. The Sitting President Bush, authorized the money to be loaned with the stipulations in place also placed there by the current POTUS.

So, why did he or Congress not go back and place simular stipulations in the Finance Companies?

Why are not people writting articles about it in the press?

Why are not people on this board starting threads about the finance companies with their outrage?

Why are not more people calling and writing their representatives to complain about the $350 ( - 17.4 for the Auto Companies with Stipulations ) given out without stipulations? Why are not people creating committees for the proposed release of the second half of the monies?

This is my confusion.

:soapbox:
My paranoid schizophrenic guess would be because it is all a ruse to keep people from paying attention to the bank bail outs and the lack of stipulations. It is no different than the Republicans using Anti Gay rights, Gun rights, Anti-Abortion, or the Democrats using Pro Gay rights, Anti Gun, Pro Abortion...ect as a means to divert attention from less popular stances and happenings in the congress/White House. With the common mindset of Americans these days that it is much easier to bring someone down to their standards of living than it is to fight for better standards of living for themselves. I have many "right leaning" friends that like to chest beat and soap box pound the American patriotic status quo while bashing French labeling them as "pu$$ys". Well, why is it then that the French will RIOT and fight for eachothers rights when jobs are cut and economic injustices happen? In America, we point at eachother, yell at the television, and rant on internet forums. Heck, just look in the Anti-Union thread in this forum room and you may see what I mean. Unions, as well as individual pay and benefits, should be nobody's business aside the affected company's Union members, management, and owners/shareholders, yet we still have people parroting what they hear on talk radio or TV news from the likes of Sean Hannady or Rush Limbaugh or Fox News. Not only that, the numbers and benefit descriptions of what I get paid are grossly exaggerated to fuel the fire. GM's labor cost on their cars and trucks are a mere 8-10% of the cost. You pay a higher percentage for labor on pizza delivery for crying out loud.

* Dungeonworks steps off his soap box, feeling much better now. :uhyeah:

 

[Rich Parsons]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081222/ap_on_bi_ge/meltdown_corporate_jets


The Finance Companies are still using corporate jets. But it was so horrible for the Auto Industry.

Where is the out cry?


Their monies come from the same source that the Auto Industry got their loans of $17.4 Billion with all the requirements of $1 a year for the CEO's and no Corporate Planes and special plans that show recent improvements and plans for future improvement. If the President can place the stipulations on the TARP monies for the Auto Indsutry why can they not do it now? Why can they not do it for the second half of the monies?

 

[terryl965]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081222/ap_on_bi_ge/meltdown_corporate_jets


The Finance Companies are still using corporate jets. But it was so horrible for the Auto Industry.

Where is the out cry?

Rich you know how double standerds work in America come on Sir.

 

[Rich Parsons]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081222/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cheney

What is your thoughts on the Cheney comments in the above article?

Did Congress Fail and go home too early? Should they have worked overtime or was it ok for them to go home for the holidays and leave it to the President and the Next Government, both Legislature and Executive?

 

[terryl965]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081222/ap_on_go_pr_wh/cheney

What is your thoughts on the Cheney comments in the above article?

Did Congress Fail and go home too early? Should they have worked overtime or was it ok for them to go home for the holidays and leave it to the President and the Next Government, both Legislature and Executive?

Congress should have stayed and worked it out period, but this way they can say it was not them.

 

[dungeonworks]

Rich, I hear you loud and clear on this one. It is BEYOND double standard. I would call it slander. They (the media) have villified our products, engineering, and our workforce in all media, be it radio, TV, news paper, or some know it all blogger.

As for the outcry, well, I think this people in this country are content with pointing fingers and yelling at televisions. Heck, most don't even know who their congressman and senators are, let alone write or call them to voice their opinions on issues.

 

[Makalakumu]

This debate isn't about the auto industry. It's a direct attack on the Unions. If you ignore all of the red herrings in the media, you can see that the end result of this is to force the Unions to accept massive concessions, whether its through bankruptcy or some form of psuedobankruptcy, the Unions will be forced to give.

Why else would the government make 8.5 trillion in new money and give it to the Banks and quibble about a "paltry" 30 billion?

This is about attacking the American worker and reducing them to third world standards.

 

[Rich Parsons]

This debate isn't about the auto industry. It's a direct attack on the Unions. If you ignore all of the red herrings in the media, you can see that the end result of this is to force the Unions to accept massive concessions, whether its through bankruptcy or some form of psuedobankruptcy, the Unions will be forced to give.

Why else would the government make 8.5 trillion in new money and give it to the Banks and quibble about a "paltry" 30 billion?

This is about attacking the American worker and reducing them to third world standards.

I know of 1.5 Trillion USD.

I did not know about the extra $7 Trillion USD. Can you post a link?

Thanks

 

[Makalakumu]

Here you go, Rich. It's all new money. We'll be paying this via the inflation tax.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Here you go, Rich. It's all new money. We'll be paying this via the inflation tax.

Thanks John.


Here is the table that spells it all out.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2008/11/26/MNVN14C8QR.DTL&o=0

 

[dungeonworks]

That's absolutely staggering when you see it altogether like that. Thanks for the links Maunakumu and Rich.

 

[Makalakumu]

Take these figures back to your Union stewards. Make sure they know the real ball park numbers in which the government is playing. The membership needs to see a couple of things...

1. The numbers make it clear that this is a blatent attack on labor.

2. The inflation caused by all of this money creation is going to impoverish the working man. The value of the dollar is going to tank.

3. The more I think about, and I realize this may be a stretch, but I think we need to have a generalized workers strike in this country. We need to organize and force our government to adopt a sound money system that cannot be manipulated by these parasites who make money by printing money. This collusion between financial and government interests needs to end if we are going to have any chance of maintaining our standard of living.

 

[Ramirez]

Take these figures back to your Union stewards. Make sure they know the real ball park numbers in which the government is playing. The membership needs to see a couple of things...

1. The numbers make it clear that this is a blatent attack on labor.

2. The inflation caused by all of this money creation is going to impoverish the working man. The value of the dollar is going to tank.

3. The more I think about, and I realize this may be a stretch, but I think we need to have a generalized workers strike in this country. We need to organize and force our government to adopt a sound money system that cannot be manipulated by these parasites who make money by printing money. This collusion between financial and government interests needs to end if we are going to have any chance of maintaining our standard of living.

Its all about union busting, I don't see nearly this outrage against the investment banks/AIG/retail banks and they caused the financial crisis, likely wiped out most people's retirement savings all the while their executives earned billions.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081221/ap_on_bi_ge/executive_bailouts

 

[Twin Fist]

If the UAW is THAT greedy, let the big three go under.

 

[Twin Fist]

This debate isn't about the auto industry. It's a direct attack on the Unions.

yes, because the UAW is the villian and the problem

they are selling enough cars

they cant sell enough cars to pay all the fat laden crap that the UAW has blackmailed them into agreeing to in thier contracts.

 

[Makalakumu]

There are three ways of listening, TF.

1. You agree. In other words, you are right.
2. You disagree. In other words, you are right.
3. Be with. With hold judgement and just think about it.

My advice to you is that you stay with number three for a long time. Don't agree or disagree with anything. Just think about it and try to understand what is being said.

Number three is the ONLY way you can learn and grow. You will never know anything then what you know now with one or two.

 

[Twin Fist]

did i ask you for any advice?

didnt think so, but i wanted to check..........

nothing I said was factually wrong.

The reason the auto makers are in trouble is because they cant pay thier UAW contracts that include some TRUELY stupid and pork laden stuff.

declare bankruptcy, void the UAW contracts, and the big three will be fine.

 

[AMP-RYU]

yes, because the UAW is the villian and the problem

they are selling enough cars

they cant sell enough cars to pay all the fat laden crap that the UAW has blackmailed them into agreeing to in thier contracts.

If you look at what the union gets compared to 30 years ago, then look at what the car prices are today compared to 30 years ago, its not the unions its the amount of work our government is allowing to leave our country. We are still shutting down plants and moving work to canada and mexico, and people are losing their jobs. This means people no work, people no money, not selling cars! I am a car dealer who was forced to leave his job because his monthly sales went from 20 cars($7500) down to 3 cars($450) so dont tell me we are selling plenty of cars!!!!!!! I worked for one of the top selling dealers in the midwest!!!!!! People are losing their jobs and people cant afford to buy new cars! Im not necessarily talking about "YOU" not being able to afford cars, I'm talking about the 100,000 people for every "YOU" that can't afford cars! Listen if we would force our car companies to move their plants back to the state we would create millions of jobs! And then people could afford to buy cars! One auto plant = estimate 25,000 employees = 15,000 extra employees in the surrounding businesses then we start selling homes and cars again, people start buying things and spending money again! Our government should tax these companies who move work out of the states so bad they move the work back as simple as that! Until this country realizes this, we are crewed! This is the change President Obama will bring!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Makalakumu]

Nothing I said was factually wrong.

It's more complicated then this...and I think you should take my advice...because you don't understand what is really going on.

Stay in number three and reread this thread.