Bail Out Automakers ... or let 'em fall?

[zDom]

I don't care how much Drill-Baby-Drilling you do in this country, we simply do not have enough domestic oil to meet our insatiable demand, which means we'll continue to rely on the middle east for our fix.

Worse, oil is a FINITE resource.

It IS going to run out, and there are indications that we have used up more than half of earth's oil and are burning through this second half much faster than the first half.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

oh, btw, I "accidentally" misspent next months server payment, so unless I'm "bailed out" the board will go boom.

Oh yeah, hostings kinda "skyrocketed" to 10 grand a month.....

anyone want to write their congressperson and get MT bailed out?





(I'm kidding. The boards fine.)

 

[Makalakumu]

oh, btw, I "accidentally" misspent next months server payment, so unless I'm "bailed out" the board will go boom.

Oh yeah, hostings kinda "skyrocketed" to 10 grand a month.....

anyone want to write their congressperson and get MT bailed out?

Oh, btw the sky is falling. MT separates the Earth from the Heavens. God Blesses this bailout for MT.

 

[elder999]

Oh, yeah, and hang Bill Ford.Or stone him. Maybe a firing squad. :lol:

And I just want to reiterate-it's all Ford's fault.Hangin's too good for him. Burnin's too good for him. He should be torn into itty bitty pieces and buried alive! :lol:
(Ditto theletch1's offer inre movie references!)

 

[crushing]

What he said. Any "bail out" should be structured as a loan, and with Chrysler like conditions-pay cuts, streamlining, and tied to making products that the market wants, and the country needs, with Japanese maker quality, instead of cheaply constructed gas-hogs.

Yes, I agree the bailout being a conditional loan, and hopefully the industry doesn't lose the best qualified people to make the investment pay off because of some of the conditions.

As far as the highlighted portion: It was the market that wanted big trucks and SUVs at a low cost point, those were the big sellers, the big money makers. The fickle consumer. . .I mean market changed faster than the automakers can redesign and retool. The automakers that didn't invest heavily and depend so much on the wants specific to the American consumer don't appear to be in the same position as the automakers that did.

 

[elder999]

As far as the highlighted portion: It was the market that wanted big trucks and SUVs at a low cost point, those were the big sellers, the big money makers. The fickle consumer. . .I mean market changed faster than the automakers can redesign and retool. The automakers that didn't invest heavily and depend so much on the wants specific to the American consumer don't appear to be in the same position as the automakers that did.

All of that is Bill Ford's fault....:lfao:

Seriously-the consumer wanted it because of marketing-ridiculous commercials, flashy gadgets, no concern about what (as I said) American consumers needed. This is, of course, a separate discussion-does demand drive marketing, or does the marketing drive demand?

 

[Makalakumu]

Seriously-the consumer wanted it because of marketing-ridiculous commercials, flashy gadgets, no concern about what (as I said) American consumers needed. This is, of course, a separate discussion-does demand drive marketing, or does the marketing drive demand?

That'll open up a can of worms. Free will be damned!

 

[jarrod]

if automakers built quality products they wouldn't be in this much trouble. part of their problem is their refusal to offer quality hybrid & electric cars. i say let them fall then offer loans to upstart "green" automakers; aptera, tesla motors, zap. the technology for high performance electric cars exists, it just isn't utilized by the big 3. if they won't change to suit our needs, let 'em die.

as for domestically made "foreign" cars...i really don't care if an american or japanese CEO gets the profits. i'm happy if american workers get to keep working.

jf

 

[MJS]

The CEO of GM makes $2+ million a year.
Limit him to $200,000, and do the same for anyone in the executive branch that makes more than $200k.

that aughta free up a billion or so in liquid operating funds.

Why should my tax dollard go to keep him in his million dollar home and 5k suit when I don't have either myself. If they aren't willing to cut back to save the company, then, let
them
burn.

My point exactly! What the hell does the CEO of any company need that kind of money for?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

More like, what the hell does the CEO of a struggling company that's about to fail need that kind of money for.

I've no problem with him making $200MA Year, IF! the company was financially sound.



Ok, different direction.

What happens IF GM goes under?

In the short term, GM would continue to make cars, just as airlines continue to fly while under Chapter 11. Yes, GM would downsize, prompting painful layoffs. But such restructuring is inevitable. The world has changed, and GM hasn't kept up.

In other words, bankruptcy could actually help the Big 3, in terms of their core car businesses. However, the real conundrum is what to do about GM's pension plans, as well as those at Ford and Chrysler. Kedrosky says a shortfall on those pensions would mean the end for the already cash-strapped Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. And that’s where another bailout is likely.

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticke...ens-if-GM-Goes-Bankrupt-Not-Much?tickers=gm,f

 

[MJS]

More like, what the hell does the CEO of a struggling company that's about to fail need that kind of money for.

I've no problem with him making $200MA Year, IF! the company was financially sound.

Good point. On the flipside, that could be what leads to the companies downfall in the first place. The CEO makes X amount. His company has a good year and he's able to give himself a bonus. He enjoys this extra income and starts to crave more. More bonus, more cash....before you know it, the company is failing, and he's still sittin' high on the hog. Heaven forbid he should toss some of that money back into the pot.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Good point. On the flipside, that could be what leads to the companies downfall in the first place. The CEO makes X amount. His company has a good year and he's able to give himself a bonus. He enjoys this extra income and starts to crave more. More bonus, more cash....before you know it, the company is failing, and he's still sittin' high on the hog. Heaven forbid he should toss some of that money back into the pot.

That's the difference between a guy in it for the money and someone who cares about the company. When times get tight for me, I sacrifice so the company survives. In 8 years, I haven't had any of my web sites, my servers or phones shut down for lack of payment, even when I've stared at thousands of bucks deadbeats owed me, and trying to make all my ends meet with $20. I'd love to see these guys making millions try living on my income.
I've eaten ramen and budget mac to keep MT running. Lets see if GM's CEO can do without his lobstah and caviah and $500 / bottle wine for a while to turn his company around. Bet none of em do!

 

[Makalakumu]

Who killed the electric car? There's a long post buried in here, but here's the short of it. GM needs to crash and burn. They've colluded with the government and with other corporations in order to shape our society as it sees fit. They've even felt so confident as to offer us two choices, bad and bad as of late.

Look at how much technology they've buried? Look at how much opportunity they have squashed? Think about the gap that small businesses could fill if only this huge behemoth were allowed to choke itself to death? They have done everything they could to crush competition and crush opportunity to have anything different and they have shaped government regulation around making that happen.

Now, they can't "keep up with the consumer"...sorry, they shot themselves in the foot and put a bullet in America's gas tank.

Look, people, if GM goes, other companies will fill the gap. America's automobile industry will finally diversify and the consumer will finally have real choices that allow them to express what they want...in many ways including environmental.

Let them go. Let America come back. Let our ideas flourish and conquer the world. If we bailout GM, we bailout the corrupt system that hands us the lower standard of living we are told we need to accept.

These corporate social managers are only seeking to protect their own behinds.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I think the biggest issue with letting the companies crash and burn is what's going to happen to the employees further down the ladder?

I agree with letting them crash. They spend their money unwisely, why should we, who pay our taxes whether we want to or not, have to help them out with the money that we earn, while we can barely make ends meet ourselves?

The problem, though, is that many of the people in the same boat we are all in work for the companies that we want to crash. Not the execs, not the suits, but the guys that are doing the real work. It sucks that in order for things to be right, they are going to be the ones to ultimately suffer the consequences.

The CEO's of the companies already have their millions to fall back on. What do the blue-collar guys have? That's what I worry about.

 

[Makalakumu]

Focus on building a strong social safety net where health care, education, and unemployment insurance help workers transition when companies fall. Bailing out corporations that make bad decisions is throwing money at failure.

 

[zDom]

I think there is a consensus that one of the biggest problems is the obscene executive salaries.

While I'm all for captitalism, maybe THIS is the problem Congress needs to REALLY address (since stockholders and their representatives seem unable or unwilling to address this issue). It seems to me that excessive salaries are more of a problem than, say, monopolies were.

Give them a cap at $300k a year. If they don't like it, they can retire. I'd be willing to give the job a try

 

[jks9199]

Top salaries in lots of fields have gotten insane of late... Whether it's the big CEOs with salaries where they pay more in taxes (even after all of their deductions and dodges) than many of their employees make in a year, or pro athletes who are way too often thugs where most fans can't even afford to go to the ballpark (that the local government was extorted into paying for)... Or the bankers who create policies and ignore common-sense concerns like whether someone can reasonably repay the loans so that they run the bank out of business while people are driven out of their homes... and the CEO collects a golden parachute worth more than combined salaries of several of their "victims"...

It's obscene. Especially as so many of them are so well protected by their shareholder system that they never feel any repercussions.

 

[Rich Parsons]

First off I work for GM.

Second, I think they should fail.

WHAT?!?!

Did he actually say fail?

Yep! I did.

1.1 million people will loose retirement checks over night. They will look all assistance for medical care that they still have and only have the Government.

I say they should fail, because, no matter how many times I try to use logic the general population is anti USA manufacturing.

I would like to ask the following questions:

Who has more vehicles that get over 30 mpg than any other company?

Who was the only company to build an electric car when it was required by California by law?

How many of those electric car were leased? Details are on this site. Also in a thread linked in this thread as well.

What are the wages paid by US Auto companies here in the USA and what are the wages paid by foriegn companies here in the USA?


The USA people have outsoruced everything. We have sold ourselves out.

There are a couple of steel mills left.

What do we make here in the USA as an industry?

Plastics?

Clothes?

Electronics?

Nope, we make money off of selling stuff made elsewhere to each other. Or providing a service such as medical or consulting or food industry.

I really would like to see the JD Power numbers for powertrains for all manufacturers. I wonder if people are only perceiving Quality.

I know everyone has a story of getting a piece of crap vehicle, and then their Japanese car has been great. But the same was true of the Japanese in the 60's and early 70's. They were worse than USA made, but they changed.

Here is another example of the Anti USA.

JD Power had numbers on the Toyota Corolla that were great. But the Chevy Nova Sucked. They were both designed by Toyota and built in the joint Toyota GM plant NUMMI in California. The plant and line is run by Toyota. But the people buying the Chevrolet could say nothing good and only said bad things. The people buying the Toyota only had good things to say. The vehicles built there today are the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe. The numbers are not as bad but the trend is still there.

I have also talked to people who will say they would buy the Daewoo Kalos if it was imported here to the USA. I asked them if they would buy the Chevrolet Aveo? There answer was that they would not as it is a piece of crap and too small. But they are the same car made on the same line.


As to the car companies working with the oil companies, I see no benefit in such an arrangement. If a car company had something that could beat everyone else they would parket it and get as much as they could.

But it is much easier to believe that there is someone else to blame and that we are not to blame.

Our investments into 401K and IRA's with Mutual funds that guide companies to make more money. With the Federal Government, pushing through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac changes to the mortgage industry to get 0 down loans and other high risk financing, the Banks also were urged to compete to continue to make their profits.

So, companies outsource to save money and invest in high or higher risk areas to make more money for their stock holders. We invest in a mutual fund that out performs others, and not in one that does not.

Years ago people complained about clothes and shoes being made over seas. But everyone bought them as they were cheaper. Then Electronics went over seas and people continues to buy them. The same is true for vehicles.

I am not saying buy only American. I am saying of you are going to make claims about quality and value then please list your data, and not just comments like "Jap Crap". Which we all know is not valid. But the same also works for the USA manufacurers as well.

I am not saying people should not buy foriegn. If you like the looks of it then buy it. If you like the cup holders better in a car than buy it. If you like the rims or a specific color then buy it.

But say you bought it because you liked it for this reason, and not try to justify it with some made up warm fuzzy for yourself that it is better quality and better value. Sometimes it is true, but other times it is not.

In short, they should fail and file for Bankruptcy. They could get rid of all retirees and cost associated with it. Lower wages for both hourly and salary, and drop almost all benefits. In the end they would be able to shutdown older plants that are more costly and build new ones in Russia or India or China or somewhere else.

I wonder if the USA would also like to look at reciprical tariffs for all exports, food, or vehicles? I mean in Japan a person cannto own a car older than 5 years old. They export all their cars to other south east Asia countries. If you import a car then you pay such high tariffs it makes no sense to pay soo much, as 100% tariff that a person only buys it to show off that they can.

But, in the end the cheaper price will win. History as proven this.

In the end, They should go bankrupt and drop all the negatives and then keep going. Fail they should. It would be the best thing for them, and everyone involved. (* except a few employees and retirees *)

 

[Makalakumu]

So, would you agree with the statement that NAFTA and all of the other free trade agreements killed (or is killing) GM?

 

[Rich Parsons]

So, would you agree with the statement that NAFTA and all of the other free trade agreements killed (or is killing) GM?

Not really. As NAFTA allows them (* the powers at GM *) to move jobs to Mexico. Even though the cost of the labor there is too expensive compared to other places on the globe. That is my opinion though. It allows them to move jobs from US to Canada to Mexico and back as volumes adjust.

The problem I was tying to point out is that foriegn car companies pay $10 to $15 an hour plus some small benefits in an area that had no jobs. While even if the US auto makers move to a location where there are no jobs to try the same thing, the UAW moves in and they set up $20 to $28 an hour plus much better benefits.

But you see here is the problem I have. I grew up in one of the UAW houses. Oh My Dad was not a Union man 100%. He voted how he thought would be best. He and my mother told and educated me to think for myself and then decided after I have reviewed data.

So to continue with the UAW, these jobs are no longer the available and the volume gets smaller each year. The UAW was trying to argue that they deserved a share of the pie and also a "fair" wage. While early on the fair wage and working conditions were points that needed to be addressed. It turned into an issue of ask and if we get it then great. It became a business in its' own right. So while I see the beneits I also see the negatives of the Union.

As to unfair tariffs with Japan and other countries that either subsidize an market or add tariffs to products to protect markets or even to ban the import of foriegn products so a market can be protected.

When a company can pay people less in another country and also have protection from competition in their own country, it gives them a base to work and guarentee a certain volume of the market as there is no competition or limited competition. When a company has the protection or investment of a government to draw upon it makes them able to compete better.

In China, all companies who operate locally must be owned 50% locally and not 51% or more foriegn owned. So the companies that go in many times provide the technology and the local provide the man power and the money. It also get complicated or more complicated as they get banks that are both local and foriegn owned to invest. So it makes it hard to say that the locals or foriegn have the 50% or a little more.


In Korea I am not sure of the laws, but given thei national pride, if it does not have a Korean Name it will not sell. So, no one would buy the Aveo, but they would buy the Daewoo version.