Bahá'í

[Steve]

Thank You very much :asian:

I may just PM you at some point and ask a few questions.

From what he told me it seemed fine, I was just a bit concerned, but then just about all religions concern me to varying degrees.

However I should make it clear that it is not necessarily the religions themselves that concern me as much as it is what those that practice these religions use them for, justify with them or make of them.

This is a very important distinction, in my opinion. While there are cults that are disgusting, such as perhaps the Thuggee's or the People's Temple cult, these tend to be distortions of a well defined religion. Religions as a belief system tend to stand in stark contrast sometimes to how these religious systems are distorted and manipulated by people looking to use the built in rhetoric to quickly gain power over a group.

Sorry if I came off as a little sarcastic before, but my tongue in cheek comment about dating a Canadian was speaking specificaly to this point. To say that the religion is disgusting seems to me to be a completely unwarranted statement. My impression is that blade96 knows even less about the religion than I, and drawing any kind of conclusions from a failed relationship is a recipe for disaster.

All of this simply to say that it's important to distinguish between religious philosophy and the execution of this philosophy. Somewhere between the dogma and heresy lies the observance of any religion.

 

[Xue Sheng]

This is a very important distinction, in my opinion. While there are cults that are disgusting, such as perhaps the Thuggee's or the People's Temple cult, these tend to be distortions of a well defined religion. Religions as a belief system tend to stand in stark contrast sometimes to how these religious systems are distorted and manipulated by people looking to use the built in rhetoric to quickly gain power over a group.

That same rhetoric was also set off an inquisition or two as well as a couple of Crusades to name just a few things

All of this simply to say that it's important to distinguish between religious philosophy and the execution of this philosophy. Somewhere between the dogma and heresy lies the observance of any religion.

Exactly, I was incredibly interested in religious philosophy in college however when I witnessed the application of that philosophy by practitioners, a few priests (various religions), ministers and a nun or two things got very different very fast.

 

[kaizasosei]

I think it is an especially empowering religion if practiced correctly and from young age.

Of course converts and extremists long to be different. That is one of the downsides of ritual and custom as well. People will turn the best religion into a freaky cult just because they want to be different and actually are vehemently and often violently excluding that which does not match whatever said beliefs. It's the evil in us, it's part of the journey maybe-sometimes even failing is a necessary experience.
Can't help wonder what lies ahead?


j

 

[Blade96]

This is a very important distinction, in my opinion. While there are cults that are disgusting, such as perhaps the Thuggee's or the People's Temple cult, these tend to be distortions of a well defined religion. Religions as a belief system tend to stand in stark contrast sometimes to how these religious systems are distorted and manipulated by people looking to use the built in rhetoric to quickly gain power over a group.

Sorry if I came off as a little sarcastic before, but my tongue in cheek comment about dating a Canadian was speaking specificaly to this point. To say that the religion is disgusting seems to me to be a completely unwarranted statement. My impression is that blade96 knows even less about the religion than I, and drawing any kind of conclusions from a failed relationship is a recipe for disaster.

All of this simply to say that it's important to distinguish between religious philosophy and the execution of this philosophy. Somewhere between the dogma and heresy lies the observance of any religion.

here's where I felt judged and mocked. You're assuming based on what? You dont know me, so how do you know what i know? You assuming I never knew the first bolded statement? Actually my main study in history, the country i studied the most, (and my other major) was the history of Russia. And Karl Marx. I know very well how the original ideas of people are later distorted and used by later generations. It was in the philosopher that I studied the most. Marx. and Jesus Christ was another one. the same. people distorted his idea. an example would be in one of the ten commandments 'thou shall not kill' and people of today's world, not everybody, but some religions have taken that to mean no abortions. though the bible I know makes it clear the born woman has personhood and the fetus does not.

and the second bolded statement, I learned about the religion from the Bahais I'd known at university.

Sorry, Xue, about your topic derailment, but when he said that, that 'my impression is she knows less' I could not hold my tongue.

 

[Steve]

If you feel mocked, you should report the post to the mods. If you know more about Bahai than you've let on, please share it.

 

[Blade96]

If you feel mocked, you should report the post to the mods. If you know more about Bahai than you've let on, please share it.

No need. I dont think you are the type of person who i would need to get the mod involved to resolve a difference with. Actually no one here seems that antagonistic.

Yeah, I tell you a couple of things some of the Bahai's at university told me though what Xue said is right, there isnt much to add.

Bahai's dont believe that heaven and hell are physical places that you go to when you die. Instead they believe its how far you are from God (and they are monotheistic and believe in only one God)

Bahaullah was the creator of Bahai its founder and was born in Persia (now called Iran) and his dates are 1817-1892 (though anyone can find that who is familiar with the art of google-do

They dont drink or use drugs except when they're sick because they believe they weaken the mind. and they believe the brain should be strong.

Two big problems I have with Bahai is, as Xue pointed out, their notion about 'female equality with men' I since I had a friend who is Bahai, went on websites to learn about the religion as well as what he told me himself. Yet they talk, and so did he, about how they do believe in women and men's differences' for example the guy (who i havent been friends with in years) said about how female characteristics such as emotion and passivity are as important as male characteristics. My thoughts were, why do they have to be considered feminine? Can't men have them too? and should they also be encouraged in men as well, if they're so valuable?

another thing is, Bahai websites and the Bahais at university i knew, said they do not impose their religion on others, beliving that 'people must find their own truth' Yet the founder, and the highest ups in Bahai councils and so on, They tell you what to drink. When to eat. what to do. Its true that Xue said, if your over 15 you must recite a prayer every day. You have to do religious ritual every day. You must remain a virgin until you get married. You can't be homosexual. (btw a bahai saying that or thinking that about my brown belt lesbian friend in my dojo, that she's wrong for being who she is, and that her relationship with her gf Laura is less valuable or less important that that of a husband a wife duo) That , and i feel im safe in generalizing, most of us who are married were not virgins beforehand. are we somehow wrong because we did not wait? btw when im out with my friends, I drink. I dont think I am ruining my mind cause I decided to have a few.

I'm sorry, the hypocrisy (and irony) doesnt escape me here.

That is just 2 reasons why I rejected the religion. See, wasnt 'just because of one bad apple i dated'

 

[blindsage]

Thank you for following up and clarifying things Blade.

Bahai's dont believe that heaven and hell are physical places that you go to when you die. Instead they believe its how far you are from God (and they are monotheistic and believe in only one God)

Bahaullah was the creator of Bahai its founder and was born in Persia (now called Iran) and his dates are 1817-1892 (though anyone can find that who is familiar with the art of google-do

They dont drink or use drugs except when they're sick because they believe they weaken the mind. and they believe the brain should be strong.

These are all pretty much correct.

Two big problems I have with Bahai is, as Xue pointed out, their notion about 'female equality with men' I since I had a friend who is Bahai, went on websites to learn about the religion as well as what he told me himself. Yet they talk, and so did he, about how they do believe in women and men's differences' for example the guy (who i havent been friends with in years) said about how female characteristics such as emotion and passivity are as important as male characteristics. My thoughts were, why do they have to be considered feminine? Can't men have them too? and should they also be encouraged in men as well, if they're so valuable?

Yes, they absolutely can. There is discussion in the Faith that there are differences between men and women, but it is not meant to pigeon hole one or the other into any kind of specific roles, rather it is to expand on the notion of equality in diversity and to understand that we don't have to attach equality to sameness.

another thing is, Bahai websites and the Bahais at university i knew, said they do not impose their religion on others, beliving that 'people must find their own truth' Yet the founder, and the highest ups in Bahai councils and so on, They tell you what to drink. When to eat. what to do. Its true that Xue said, if your over 15 you must recite a prayer every day. You have to do religious ritual every day. You must remain a virgin until you get married. You can't be homosexual. (btw a bahai saying that or thinking that about my brown belt lesbian friend in my dojo, that she's wrong for being who she is, and that her relationship with her gf Laura is less valuable or less important that that of a husband a wife duo) That , and i feel im safe in generalizing, most of us who are married were not virgins beforehand. are we somehow wrong because we did not wait? btw when im out with my friends, I drink. I dont think I am ruining my mind cause I decided to have a few.

You seem to be conflating two different different issues here. Not imposing the religion on others means just that, Baha'is to not seek to impose our religion or beliefs on people who are not Bahai's. As for what practices there are once you become a Baha'i, that is a different issue. The laws and practices of the Faith as laid down by Baha'u'llah are not seperate from the spiritual ideas, they are part and parcel. If you accept belief in Baha'u'llah you are accepting His religion as it is laid down. The only dietary laws are that you don't drink alcohol. The only laws about "when to eat" have to do with fasting once a year, and nobody makes you do that. Nobody tells you what to do, but acceptance of belief in Baha'u'llah assumes an acceptance of the laws and practices He has laid down. One of those is prayer daily, but there are no prayer 'police', whether you are following this obligation is between you and God. Staying a virgin until you are married is a law that Baha'u'llah has laid down, but seriously do you think in this society that all Baha'is have kept to this? I'm not that delusional, but it's also none of my business. Whether an individual Baha'i has kept this tenet is between them and God (and probably their spouse). Whether you are a virgin or not is none of my business and certainly isn't something for me to judge you on. No, as a Baha'i you can't practice homosexuality. You can be a Baha'i and be a homosexual. Sorry, I can't make that different for you, but yes it is a part of Baha'i belief. Judging people for being homosexual and treating them without the compasssion you would give to any other person is not acceptable in the Faith.

I'm sorry, the hypocrisy (and irony) doesnt escape me here.[/quote

That is just 2 reasons why I rejected the religion. See, wasnt 'just because of one bad apple i dated'

I think many of your complaints are fine. If you don't agree or accept those ideas, then you shoudn't submit yourself to a belief system you disagree with. I would say that though that the gist of your disagreements doesn't seem to be with the practices themselves, but in your perception that Baha'is will judge others for not agreeing or engaging in the same behavior. This is generally not my experience, nor is it acceptable by the teachings of the Faith.

 

[Blade96]

Thank you for following up and clarifying things Blade.


These are all pretty much correct.

Thanks.

Yes, they absolutely can. There is discussion in the Faith that there are differences between men and women, but it is not meant to pigeon hole one or the other into any kind of specific roles, rather it is to expand on the notion of equality in diversity and to understand that we don't have to attach equality to sameness.

Oh I know they can. But thats what happens because at least the groups of Bahais I knew, and what I have read, none of it follows up and says that these traits are not exclusively 'female' men should have these traits, and they say only 'the female part of society should be embraced as well' thus causing the distinction and separation of the traits into specific roles. They do make that distinction, though they may not intend to and not what they might wish.

You seem to be conflating two different different issues here. Not imposing the religion on others means just that, Baha'is to not seek to impose our religion or beliefs on people who are not Bahai's. As for what practices there are once you become a Baha'i, that is a different issue. The laws and practices of the Faith as laid down by Baha'u'llah are not seperate from the spiritual ideas, they are part and parcel. If you accept belief in Baha'u'llah you are accepting His religion as it is laid down. The only dietary laws are that you don't drink alcohol. The only laws about "when to eat" have to do with fasting once a year, and nobody makes you do that. Nobody tells you what to do, but acceptance of belief in Baha'u'llah assumes an acceptance of the laws and practices He has laid down. One of those is prayer daily, but there are no prayer 'police', whether you are following this obligation is between you and God. Staying a virgin until you are married is a law that Baha'u'llah has laid down, but seriously do you think in this society that all Baha'is have kept to this? I'm not that delusional, but it's also none of my business. Whether an individual Baha'i has kept this tenet is between them and God (and probably their spouse). Whether you are a virgin or not is none of my business and certainly isn't something for me to judge you on. No, as a Baha'i you can't practice homosexuality. You can be a Baha'i and be a homosexual. Sorry, I can't make that different for you, but yes it is a part of Baha'i belief. Judging people for being homosexual and treating them without the compasssion you would give to any other person is not acceptable in the Faith.

I think many of your complaints are fine. If you don't agree or accept those ideas, then you shoudn't submit yourself to a belief system you disagree with. I would say that though that the gist of your disagreements doesn't seem to be with the practices themselves, but in your perception that Baha'is will judge others for not agreeing or engaging in the same behavior. This is generally not my experience, nor is it acceptable by the teachings of the Faith.

Its generally been my experience, not just with Bahai's, but most people no matter what religion, that you get judged for being sifferent or having a different lifestyle. I mean you do anywhere, its part of human nature. Even people who arent religious judge. MA senseis think their own MA is the best. Is it good though? Not really. But the bahai's (and most people I'd known in life for that matter) tended to judge. That's a big reason why I try to never do it.

 

[blindsage]

Thanks.

Oh I know they can. But thats what happens because at least the groups of Bahais I knew, and what I have read, none of it follows up and says that these traits are not exclusively 'female' men should have these traits, and they say only 'the female part of society should be embraced as well' thus causing the distinction and separation of the traits into specific roles. They do make that distinction, though they may not intend to and not what they might wish.

There are comments in the writings about what are 'male' and 'female' traits, but the context of what it is talking about in those passages is bringing qualities that have been previously considered secondary to a place of equality in our society. It does not say they are exclusive to either, nor do I believe that that is their intent. It is also very clear when studying the writings in more depth and as a whole that there are no roles designed exclusively for either gender, and though I have known a few Bahai's that seem to subscribe to more traditional notions of gender roles, this is not a standard derived from the Faith.

Its generally been my experience, not just with Bahai's, but most people no matter what religion, that you get judged for being sifferent or having a different lifestyle. I mean you do anywhere, its part of human nature. Even people who arent religious judge. MA senseis think their own MA is the best. Is it good though? Not really. But the bahai's (and most people I'd known in life for that matter) tended to judge. That's a big reason why I try to never do it.

I have known plenty of Bahai's that are judgmental as well, and you're right, regardless of belief system you are going to see this. All I can tell you is that there is a significant portion of the Baha'i writings devoted to engendering the opposite attitudes and behaviors, but people are human, and again, my overall experience with Baha'is for over 30 years has been very positive. But there is also a difference between disagreeing with the choices people make and believing and treating them as 'bad'. You do not have to agree with everything someone does or every choice they make in order to treat them with respect, acceptance and love. That is what the teachings of Baha'u'llah promote, though it is not always what fallible people accomplish. I'm sorry, if you have experienced otherwise.