Bad image for TKD

[Woodbutcher]

As a newcomer to the sport, I've heard a lot of statements like "martial arts is total crap in a 'real' fight". "Experts say TKD is worthless in a street fight" "Karate is better than TKD, just watch this youtube clip", "Belt Factories", etc, etc.

I have the feeling that the place I go to could be classified as a belt factory, but isn't it really what you put into it is what you get out of it? When I'm there, I train like I mean it. Every punch and ever kick is just as if I were attacking a real person. When were asked to do 50 jumping jacks, I'm ususally the last to finish because I do all 50.

It's discouraging when squared off with someone whose so out of shape that then need to drop their arms to their side and rest from just hoping back and forth. You got your brown belt.....how?

Last rant. I always see these links to videos where some black belt in TKD gets his butt handed to him sparing against: a kickboxer, boxer, a monk, gang banger, you name it. Lets face it....some people simply just can't spar. TKD shouldn't be brushed aside as 'worthless' in a streetfight simply because not all students dont' bring their 'A Game' to class.

Off my soap box.

 

[terryl965]

Let me be the first to welcome you to the site, we have a meet and greet section for introductions.

As far as TKD it is what you put into it plus the actual SD side of it, like alot of folks we get picked on because of all the Mc Dojo's out there. Just keep training and getting yourself to the point you would like.

 

[just2kicku]

I don't know a lot about TKD. but my youngest brother is a BB in it. I'm guessing there are different variations of it as well. The stuff I saw my brother doing was a real hard style, would've swore it was Shotokan.
And i've seen him in a couple of street fights, and he did quite well.

 

[exile]

And don't forget one other thing, Woodb.: TKD only works as a street-effective combat system if it's trained that way. That means, using the available techs and the information latent in the forms, the hyungs, for the express purpose of damaging an attacker to the point of incapacitation, so that they are no longer physically able to continue the attack. We're talking controlling moves setting up hammerfists to the neck or temples, spearing elbow strikes into the eyes with plenty of malice aforethought, getting outside the attacker as soon as he grabs you, controlling his grabbing hand and using your 'outward middle block' for its original purpose (or one of them, at least)—a strike with the whole forearm to his neck and lower jaw, with a throwdown waiting in the wings. High spinning or jumping kicks? Forget 'em—low-to-midbody kicks and knee strikes are coin of the realm when you're in realistic fighting ranges.

That's the combat face of TKD. And you have to train with someone who's not a sparring partner, but rather a surrogate for a violent defective intent on damaging you. The more you can simulate the conditions of a real street attack, the more effective your training for that attack will be. The Korean Tiger Commando units and ROK Marines showed just how fearsome soldiers on the battlefield equipped with TKD, in two wars, could be—but the catch is, they were training for H2H against the North Koreans and the North Vietnamese. They weren't sparring; they were training killing techniques against furture attackers who would be trying to kill them. Something of that has to be part of your training, if you want your MA to be a solid SD system—and it doesn't matter whether it's TKD or any of the other karate-based arts, or the FMAs, or the CMAs, or Daito-ryu Aikijutsu, or Krav Maga; you have to train under conditions which at least partly replicate street violence, or you can't rely on it when you face street violence.

 

[MA-Caver]

Welcome to MT

From what I've learned from the fine folks here I can sum up to this...

The longer it takes to attain a belt ranking and the more you learn in that period of time... shows you're in the right place.

 

[mook jong man]

Just make sure you train against boxing types of punches , street style attacks , throat grabs , tackles , close in stuff etc . Do not just train against the techniques of your own school .

I come from a Wing Chun school and people seem to think that we only do Chi- Sau and learn to stop centerline punches , while that maybe true in the case of some schools , it was not the case in ours . We used to do drills such as random arms , or random legs or depending on the students skill level random arms and legs together .

This means that any sort of strike , any sort of leg attack , any sort of grab could be thrown at you and you have to defend against it . It was great because usually you had people in the class that had done other martial arts before and could attack with some skill , but still you learnt to respect the opponent that had no training because they could attack with an awkward sort of timing and unpredictability.

 

[exile]

Just make sure you train against boxing types of punches , street style attacks , throat grabs , tackles , close in stuff etc . Do not just train against the techniques of your own school .

My point is, don't bother training against the techniques of other MAists unless you're convinced that your main danger on the street is someone who's sweated for five or six years to attain a basic working competence in a TMA. The 'techniques' you're training against aren't MA moves, but the 'habitual acts of violence' whose statistical study Patrick McCarthy initiated, and which have been followed up by a number of SD-oriented MAists with the enterprise and initiative to study crime reports in the US and the UK. The results suggest that you need to be training against something like half-a-dozen attack initiators from non-trained but pathologically violent types. This whole concept that street defense is like a duel between MAists is long overdue for a decent funeral and discreet burial, preferably in an unmarked grave. No matter what your MA style is, the guy you're going to be defending yourself against in a dark, grimy parking garage is very unlikely to be doing any of that.

 

[BrandonLucas]

As a newcomer to the sport, I've heard a lot of statements like "martial arts is total crap in a 'real' fight". "Experts say TKD is worthless in a street fight" "Karate is better than TKD, just watch this youtube clip", "Belt Factories", etc, etc.

I have the feeling that the place I go to could be classified as a belt factory, but isn't it really what you put into it is what you get out of it? When I'm there, I train like I mean it. Every punch and ever kick is just as if I were attacking a real person. When were asked to do 50 jumping jacks, I'm ususally the last to finish because I do all 50.

It's discouraging when squared off with someone whose so out of shape that then need to drop their arms to their side and rest from just hoping back and forth. You got your brown belt.....how?

Last rant. I always see these links to videos where some black belt in TKD gets his butt handed to him sparing against: a kickboxer, boxer, a monk, gang banger, you name it. Lets face it....some people simply just can't spar. TKD shouldn't be brushed aside as 'worthless' in a streetfight simply because not all students dont' bring their 'A Game' to class.

Off my soap box.

First and foremost, welcome to MT! Glad to have you.

Down to business...

TKD is not a sport. It is a martial art that is used for self defense purposes. There are people out there that train in TKD as if it were a sport, like football and baseball. These people are a huge part of why TKD is taken as a joke. I can't blame the public for thinking that TKD is nothing more than a kiddy day care belt factory that competes in tournements playing tag with full protective gear and no blocking skills for trophies. Schools keep putting it out there for the world to see, and the world sees it.

Anyone who decides to start learning TKD needs to ask themselves exactly what it is that they want to get out of it. Do you want to earn a bunch of trophies to show off to your friends, or do you want to learn how to protect yourself if you have to? Do you want to have somewhere to drop your kids off and not have to worry about them for an afternoon, or do you want them to learn how to not get themselves hurt or worse?

TKD as an art is neither superior or inferior to any other art out there. It simply is what it is: a method of fighting and defending. It's all up to the student and instructor as to how to interperate it. If the instructor is teaching you TKD because you need to learn to protect yourself, you're not going to get anything out of it by simply showing up to class in your uniform, jumping around for half an hour yelling "AAAAEEEEHHHH" and "HIIIYAAA" really loud.

If someone posts a video of a TKD belt factory on youtube, then great!! I'm glad they're doing that. Maybe someone who was considering signing up for classes at that school with the intention of really learning the martial art will see the video and be given a great heads up.

The problem that I see is that what all of these places are doing is giving TKD a bad name...the art as a whole, and not just the crap schools that are out there. And really, the only reason this bothers me at all is because my goal is to one day teach what I know to others so that they can get the same benefits out of the martial art that I did.

One of the things to remember, though, is that everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If they think TKD sucks, then that's their opinion. I know that my training does not suck, and I'm confident in my abilities as a practitioner of TKD to use what I know to my advantage...physically, mentally, and emotionally.

And that's what it should all boil down to...are you getting the training that you should be getting? Are you learning how to effectively protect yourself against a live and resisting opponent? Are you aware of what it feels like to really get hit? Are you pushed to your limits so that what you're taught becomes second nature? Are you taught how to be self confident and yet humble? Are you taught to respect others in every aspect?

If you answer no to any of those, find another school. Chances are that if you answer no, you're a member of one of the schools I would consider a problem.

You should also ask yourself what you expect to get out of TKD. Are you taking TKD to be in the best shape possible to defend yourself and others, or are you taking TKD because you feel that it's competitive or you just want to earn a rank in something? If you go with the second part of that questoin, then join the Boyscouts, Girlscouts, or put your kids in a real daycare and go join a country club...TKD is not for you. I do realize that these type of people can find TKD schools that suit there needs...but the irony of the situation is that what they're learning is not TKD.

Learning TKD is the same as learning any other martial art: martial arts in general were designed for self defense, and self defense is very rarely pretty, and it's definitely not easy. The only difference between one martial art and the next is the techniques used in them and the methods used in applying those techniques. But they all are designed to do the same thing: to make you physically able to defend yourself against a fully resisting opponent with bad intentions.

Another thing to consider, too:

Exactly who are the people who are counting out TKD as a valid martial art?

In my experience, there are 2 types of people who come up with this crap...

1. MMA fanboys. These are the guys who think that UFC and other "ultimate fighting" organizations are the gospel for what fighting is "supposed" to look like. Here's the deal...first off, most of the real MMA folks you ask will be glad to tell you that it's all about knowing your strenghts and weaknesses, knowing what and how to train to play to your strengths and build on your weaknesses, and to train hard. There are lots of MMA folks on this board, as a matter of fact, that can back up the fact that TKD is no more or less valid than any other art.

Besides, MMA fanboys like to compete and watch others compete religiously, so what makes them any better than TKDists? Alot of people in MMA actually use TKD as one of their striking arts, anyway. Competing in MMA means that you're restricted by rules, just the same as any other tournement. The only difference is the rules that go into effect.

*Note: this applies to MMA fanboys. This does not mean that all people who practice MMA think this way*

2. Bullies. These are the guys who have to prove themselves constantly to themselves and everyone else that they are superior to everyone and everything. How do they know that TKD doesn't work in a "real" fight? Did they go out and pick one with one of the kids who competes in point sparring tournements or attends a belt factory? Yeah, I'm sure that that TKD won't work in a real fight.

I'll tell you how I look at that situation:

I know that TKD is a valid way of protecting yourself. I know that "sport" TKD is not a valid way of protecting yourself. But I also know that the martial art itself is not going to protect me. TKD is not some magic shield that fights for me...I have to use what I was taught.

Another way to view it...TKD is like a loaded gun. "Sport" TKD is like a water gun. Which one is actually going to be more dangerous? Which one requires more training to actually use properly?

The bottom line is this:

If people want to talk junk, let them talk junk. Continue to train hard for the right reasons....offer to teach others what you have learned so that they can better protect themselves, and have them train as hard as you trained...and don't go out looking for trouble. You don't have to prove to anyone that TKD is valid. Be confident enough in yourself to know that you can handle a situation properly from the training you have. And warn others of TKD schools that are belt factories, daycares, sport camps, and country clubs. If these places don't get any business, they won't exist.

 

[BrandonLucas]

My point is, don't bother training against the techniques of other MAists unless you're convinced that your main danger on the street is someone who's sweated for five or six years to attain a basic working competence in a TMA. The 'techniques' you're training against aren't MA moves, but the 'habitual acts of violence' whose statistical study Patrick McCarthy initiated, and which have been followed up by a number of SD-oriented MAists with the enterprise and initiative to study crime reports in the US and the UK. The results suggest that you need to be training against something like half-a-dozen attack initiators from non-trained but pathologically violent types. This whole concept that street defense is like a duel between MAists is long overdue for a decent funeral and discreet burial, preferably in an unmarked grave. No matter what your MA style is, the guy you're going to be defending yourself against in a dark, grimy parking garage is very unlikely to be doing any of that.

Basically, train to be prepared to defend against anything.

 

[Flying Crane]

Woodbutcher: don't get too discouraged. EVERY art has produced its share of outstanding practitioners, as well as its share of no-talent, highly ranked frauds. This is not a strictly TKD thing. It's everywhere. It's all in the quality of how the art is trained and is often affected by the topical focus of the training, meaning: is it a sport-oriented school or a self-defense oriented school.

If you suspect that the school you are in is not engaged in high quality training, then shop around. Visit other schools and see how they are doing it. When you find something that you are convinced is better, jump ship. If you don't see anything better than what you've got, stay where you are.

 

[seasoned]

Welcome aboard, maybe with the information you can gather from this site, it will help in your decision making. Good luck.

 

[sjansen]

Welcome,

The more your brother learns the better he can defend himself. Who cares about belt and rank. On the street can he defend himself? In most cases her is better prepared than those who have no training. If he has been taught to be self aware and aware of his surroundings he is ahead of the pack.

Don't worry about what everyone else says including me. If you and he think that you are better prepared you probably are. I know I will probably get heat for that last statement but it is true.

Most thugs have little or no training and any you have puts you at an advantage.

 

[Tames D]

Hee ILL Cho. Nuff said.

 

[mozzandherb]

It's not whether TKD is better or worse as a MA, because you will always have both sides of the coin. You will find videos where you see TKD kicking a Muay Thai fighter in the head, but then you see videos of the complete opposite.

Do not look at the videos to make your decision on whether or not to take a certain MA because there are pro's and con's to every video and you will put too much expectation on yourself if the school you choose to train at does not live up to the video you saw.

I would say if you want to become a good street fighter, take some boxing lessons, but that's just my opinion.\

And yes there are a lot of schools out there who are in it as a business or a career, but don't let this bother you either because there are a lot of good schools that operate as a business, who give out BB to kids, but does this disqualify the school or the instructor? In my opinion in doesn't.

I would agree with Brandon in the sense that you have to know what you want to train for, but I disagree with him and I would say that TKD has evolved into a sport. It is a martial art first, but there are many people who are training like it's a sport and I see nothing wrong with that. If you are in it for SD then that's fantastic, if you are in to be the best you can be at competitions then that's great too, and if you are in it just get a good workout, then that good too.

There are so many MA schools and TKD schools to choose from, but I cannot say one MA is better than another, but I can say that there are TKD schools better than other's, but that's just because that's all I know. I wouldn't listen to all the hype surrounding MA's not being an effective SD tool, there are many more advantages of knowing a MA if the time comes when you have to fight. But hopefully that time doesn't come.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Just make sure you train against boxing types of punches , street style attacks , throat grabs , tackles , close in stuff etc . Do not just train against the techniques of your own school .

I agree with this staement. Don't train to prepare yourself for a "TKD fight" unless you want to go to tournaments that is. I train in my martial art because I believe it offers very good practical combat skills and more. To those who say TKD doesn't work in a real fight just kick 'em in the face or whatever.

I don't train in Tae Kwon Do, and I have my own opinions of which martial arts are "more effective", but I respect all the fighting arts and all martial artists that develope the warrior's spirit. All martial arts are effective if the techniques and skills are used properly.

 

[Sandstorm]

Hi there

Don't be disheartened by such comments. In my experience, those who mock tend to have insecurity issues about themselves. Keep at the training and set your goals. Make sure your goals match your training and alter where necessary. Never be dictated to! If you enjoy what you are doing, kudos my friend, and keep at it.

Good luck

 

[Woodbutcher]

Good deal! Thanks for all the positive feed back.

I'm up for testing for my first belt (orange) at the same time as my 7 year old daughter (going for orange as well) and my 9 year old son (going for camo).

We all practice together at home and that makes me feel like 'super-dad'. My son is focused and pays attention to form, speed, and accuracy. My daughter.....well, she's an A-typical 7 year old. I'm sure we will all get our belts, but I really want my daughter to earn it, hence the extra practice at home.

 

[Aiki Lee]

A family that kicks together sticks together, or so they say.